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Equipment Discussions >> ATM, Optics and DIY Forum

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 669
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: Dan McConaughy]
      #3409598 - 10/25/09 09:57 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

A ronchi can show alot . post a ronchi pic and people will see all kinds of things

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 669
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3409608 - 10/25/09 10:03 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

big thin mirror flexing

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 669
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3409614 - 10/25/09 10:06 AM

hand held camera. ronchi over a light bulb .3/8 hole

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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2159
Loc: salem, OR
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3410522 - 10/25/09 05:48 PM

Hi Dan,

Quote:

Are there ways to 'cheat' with the setup of the interferometric analysis (aside from fraudulent reports)?




Hmm, maybe.

Even if you're trying to do it right (nontrivial), stepping outside of the comfort zone (say by testing thin mirrors and supporting them vertically on a sling) can introduce enough test stand error to swamp the mirror's errors. And that's before you do the analysis of compound errors to set some sort of bounds on the overall accuracy. If you take multiple IFs with a mirror rotated systematically, reduce each one, then average the results properly, test stand errors can be eliminated. But a 10 minute test stretches to hours that way.

If you're making mirrors, any test regime is there to ensure you meet your quality targets. And those mirrors go on to be examined critically in the field, so if the quality target was met and the mirrors perform, the actual testing regime is moot.

That said, I'm building a Shack-cube interferometer just to get full surface analysis on large mirrors down to f/2.5. But it's the last step in a long chain of metrics used for fabrication control, and only to validate production control. But granted, if you accept the test methodology, having the full surface metric showing errors on the glass can be considered "more objective" than just knowing that it passed muster with the optician's usual care in fabrication.

Best,
Mark


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gregj888
sage


Reged: 03/26/06
Posts: 303
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3411153 - 10/26/09 01:01 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Mark,

I have a Twyman-Green using a cube beam splitter set up with plane mirrors and a collimated (enlarged) beam to look at my deformable mirror. It would also work with flats, though they would have to be small (50mm).

By removing the collimator and changing the reference surface to a sphere you get a spherical wave front Twyman-Green...
http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/Rowe/bath/rtmc04/img5.html

Might be easier than the shack cube...

BTW, for those that haven't seen David Rowe's presentation, it's worth a look...
http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/Rowe/bath/rtmc04/rtmc04.html

Very interesting topic BTW...

Greg


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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2159
Loc: salem, OR
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: gregj888]
      #3411227 - 10/26/09 02:39 AM

From what I understand the Shack-cube isn't terribly difficult, being a beam-splitter and plano-convex lens (reference on the convex) that focuses just outside the back face of the beam-splitter. Once tested and successfully glued up it's robust, resistant to dust, and compact. The GRIN lens almost touches the back of the beam-splitter, but it's removable for dust control. From what I've seen the Bath works fine but I'd rather not have the inherent astig for what I'm trying to do.

But I'll take a look at Dave's presentation, I don't recall seeing this before.

Best,
Mark

Edited by mark cowan (10/26/09 03:20 AM)


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Mark Harry
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 3128
Loc: Northeast
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3411357 - 10/26/09 07:25 AM

On another aspect, was mentioned something about an 'objective test'.....
*************************************
Well, a test is a test. The only thing that can be "objective" is the operator. I think all of the tests can be messed up one way or the other; deliberately or through a lack of proficiency.
M.

--------------------
So many projects, so little time!


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07
Posts: 2274
Loc: Kent, UK
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3411388 - 10/26/09 08:07 AM

anyone have any thoughts on using a webcam instead of the human eye for evaluating grey values in a Coude mask? I would have thought using 255 shades could give a numeric value for better matching?

--------------------
Jc

ATM 10" F6.1, 1/25th wave spec (max wavefront error +/- 1/12.6 in zone 4 of 6, sodium light )
6" F7 spec
127mm F9.4 Refractor
10 x 50 bin
ETX80 (finder)
Canon 20D
PST
DSI 1
and a curious mind



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gregj888
sage


Reged: 03/26/06
Posts: 303
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #3411651 - 10/26/09 10:51 AM

John,

Robo Foucault does just that and seems to track IF nicely.

Mark, I have a Bath, the one shown is the Twyman-Green. Replace the lens with a spherical mirror on the other arm of the beam splitter. Concave sphere being easier to test.

Greg


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
*****

Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: Bremerton Washington
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3411968 - 10/26/09 01:29 PM

Quote:

A ronchi can show alot . post a ronchi pic and people will see all kinds of things




I seeeee a small rabbit on an elephant..running through the clouds....

Not really.....

The center needs more pushing for sure.....Huge mirror

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2159
Loc: salem, OR
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. new [Re: gregj888]
      #3412207 - 10/26/09 03:06 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Greg,

I see what you're saying. I'll be making an f/2 reference sphere for testing the IF out with, I'll send that out for independent looks and get some traceability. Small plano-convex lens as sourced by, say CVI can be acquired coated/uncoated and one could build two cubes, one for coated mirrors, one for not. The quality is likely to be very good near the center for small lenses with lambda/10 specs, I'll be finding that out.

Using the "outboard" reference sphere would provide an optional method of making it work.

John,

Quote:

anyone have any thoughts on using a webcam instead of the human eye for evaluating grey values in a Coude mask? I would have thought using 255 shades could give a numeric value for better matching?




I've been working up a high-res digital (unmasked) Foucault tester (not the way RoboFoucault does it, BTW!) that in manual digitization tests showed something <1/40th wave PVW agreement with careful manual measurements. It will measure hundreds of points across the mirror, if desired, stepping equally through the caustic and then back-computing the "zonal" radius.

Best,
Mark


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gregj888
sage


Reged: 03/26/06
Posts: 303
Re: KE testing accuracy- notes. [Re: mark cowan]
      #3413351 - 10/27/09 01:38 AM

Mark,

The reference sphere for calibration sounds like a great idea.

I'm still working on null optics for the 20" F/3.5. I have a lens for a Ross null but it's only about .3 wave (not nearly enough) though a reasonable check on the KE.

I've done a lot of KE tests but in this range I don't expect to get much better than 1/4 wave (though hope springs eternal for far more).

I have the null setup saved that Mike Jones did for Mark Harry a while back. That might work and I may have lenses on hand for an Offner null setup but need to check them in Oslo.

It might be fun to bring the stuff down to Salem in a few weeks and "play" for a few hours if you are up for that?

Greg


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