InkDark
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 1839
Loc: Montreal, Canada
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The other day I was talking to a college teacher of electrical engineering and he told me that he once asked a math teacher wath were the math teachers studying. The math teacher said "we study the competence of the human brain". I found that answer pretty good.
How would you define math?
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Jimmy
If you could stop time, for how long would you stop it?
"...since that time, I have not complained about the weather one single time. I’m glad there is weather." – Alan Bean, Apollo 12
Edited by InkDark (10/29/09 01:30 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
How would you define math?
A language of numbers rather than letters.
Until you get to higher maths, then it becomes a language of letters all over again!
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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alanon
Nobody tells me anything
Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 2642
Loc: Las Vegas
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And then it becomes Greek letters. 
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Alanon the Wizard (a literary character, not the organization)
Dan
12.5" Obsession #1531
WO 98mm FLT (aluminum tube)
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Coronado PST Ha
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Greg K.
Reged: 12/11/03
Posts: 11544
Loc: Clifton Park, NY
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...with really weird punctuation.
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Astro-Tech AT111EDT f/7 - Celestron CGEM
NexStar 11 GPS
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Orion 90mm Mak
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Shadowalker
Unpretentious Rocket Scientist
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 3560
Loc: Poplarville, MS, USA
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Without consulting Wikipedia I'll take a shot.
Mathematics is a tool, just as language is a tool. It is a tool that can express real world things in unambiguous ways. Our language is useful for expressing certain things, but it's impossible to express how much money is in one's pocket without mathematics. It's impossible to explain Special or General Relativity without mathematics.
Math, in and of itself, is without purpose. It's how we use it that gives it usefulness. To put that another way, there are whole branches of math that explain nothing (at least nothing we know of) but can be logically derived from simple to complex mathematical concepts. Similarly, we can use language to express meaningless thoughts - some of my own posts come to mind - maybe this one.
In a nutshell, and how my engineer's mind understands it: Math is a language tool used to describe unambiguously real world phenomena.
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Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org
My evil self is at that door, and I have no power to stop it
-- Dr. Edward Morbius
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MMICKELS
Aluminum Knight
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 27889
Loc: The Land of Shake and Bake
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Quote:
In a nutshell, and how my engineer's mind understands it
Like this?
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Mark
"Never eat more than you can lift"
Miss Piggy
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mattyfatz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/27/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: Boise Idaho
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Quote:
Quote:
In a nutshell, and how my engineer's mind understands it
Like this?
 
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**Matty**
Stimulating the economy, one piece of equipment at a time.   
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MMICKELS
Aluminum Knight
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 27889
Loc: The Land of Shake and Bake
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To me math is a tool not unlike the other tools in my toolbox at work. Math just gets used more than the rest, and never wears out.
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Mark
"Never eat more than you can lift"
Miss Piggy
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Shadowalker
Unpretentious Rocket Scientist
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 3560
Loc: Poplarville, MS, USA
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Dilbert. I've been compared to Dilbert.
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Tom Nicolaides
http://www.first-light.org
My evil self is at that door, and I have no power to stop it
-- Dr. Edward Morbius
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16395
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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You have my deepest sympathies, Tom.
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Ted
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Scott Horstman
Vendor- Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 8074
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Explanation of math.
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12942
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
Dilbert. I've been compared to Dilbert.
At least it wasn't Dogbert.
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"Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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Erric
member
Reged: 10/26/09
Posts: 35
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Quote:
To me math is a tool not unlike the other tools in my toolbox at work. Math just gets used more than the rest, and never wears out.
So math is an invention, not a discovery?
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12942
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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I'd say it's both. The particular symbolic language that we manipulate is invented, and many of the embellishments that we add to it are invented. But the underlying logic and numeracy, the basic algebraic properties and logical relationships, are discovered.
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"Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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I always liked "the science of drawing necessary conclusions", which distinguishes it from logic, "the science of drawing any conclusions" - C.S. Pierce.
-drl
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HiggsBoson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 1118
Loc: Kal-li-fornia
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Something about the question is disturbing to me.
Math consist of three studies:
Arithmatic - the study of numbers
Geometry - the study of shapes
Analysis - the study of infinity
For many years this has been sufficient for me. I am unable to embrace the question.
Also
A system of language and rules which allow for the modeling of reality in abstraction.
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Michael
ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
ATM: 12.5" F/4.5 Real Soon Now...
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letimotif
No Complaints
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 2016
Loc: Far Flung Isles of Langerhans
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The etymology of mathematics I find instructive. From the Greek word "mathemas" meaning learning, study or science (or, generally speaking, all three).
At its foundation, mathematics permits the study of our Universe.
Although the basics concepts were understood by extremely clever men three hundred years ago, the advent of computer technology gave Dr. Mandelbrot a bully pulpit from which to bring the concepts, and intriguing ramifications, of fractals into the mainstream.
Which begs the question: Arithmetic, Geometry, the Calculus have been around for a while. What have we overlooked? What's next?
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Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for?
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Posts: 12942
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Quote:
A system of language and rules which allow for the modeling of reality in abstraction.
It also allows you to model abstractions in the absence of reality.
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"Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."
"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror
Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10362
Loc: Chaville, France
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I think the interesting question about math is whether it transcends human thought or not. Is it Something in the Universe which would exist whether Humans exist or not? Is it purely a human construction? Astronomers (and imagers especially) know that the size of image of an object photographed through a telescope is the object's angle (in radians, which is the "natural" measure of arc, not in degrees or grades which are arbitrary units) multiplied by the focal length of the telescope / objective. No adjusting variables. Have you ever been baffled by how extraordinarily simple that is?
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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HiggsBoson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 1118
Loc: Kal-li-fornia
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Quote:
I think the interesting question about math is whether it transcends human thought or not. Is it Something in the Universe which would exist whether Humans exist or not? Is it purely a human construction?
I assert that the answer is yes. If we find another society of thinking creatures who have the ability to manipulate their environment I am confident that they will have counting numbers and identities that look like 1+1=2 and 1 * 1 = 1. If they are so different from us that they do not find it necessary to do this we may not recognize them as intelligent. It logically follows that they may feel the same way about us.
Quote:
Astronomers (and imagers especially) know that the size of image of an object photographed through a telescope is the object's angle (in radians, which is the "natural" measure of arc, not in degrees or grades which are arbitrary units) multiplied by the focal length of the telescope / objective. No adjusting variables. Have you ever been baffled by how extraordinarily simple that is?
Have you considered that some societies may have adopted the number we call pi as 1. They may then consider the radius of a circle as an irrational number. It is the ratio between the two that I assert that they will know.
BTW, the degree is not exactly arbitrary. I understand that it size was chosen by the Babylonians because they did not like fractions. 360 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 24, 30, 36, 40, 45, 60, 72, 90, 120, 180 & 360. This unit was natural to them.
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Michael
ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
ATM: 12.5" F/4.5 Real Soon Now...
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