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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12915
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Due to increased knowledge and changes in attitudes towards binoculars for astronomy use , due in no small part to the efforts of so many on internet forums such as this one , I can't help feeling that many are searching for something that doesn't really exist .
Is it not time that at least one or two manufacturers started making more RIGHT ANGLED binoculars with longer focal ratios -- even if it DOES mean the instruments ending up a little unwieldy or physically unattractive ?
It seems to me that a great number of folks interested in the binoculars aspect of THIS HOBBY are crying out for MORE COMFORTABLE viewing positions , higher magnifications AND less obtrusive optical aberrations AT AFFORDABLE PRICES , and surely one way of providing that would be to design the binoculars from scratch to have 90 degree oculars and focal ratios of at least f6 , rather than sticking almost religiously to a philosophy of designing and making binoculars as conventional straight - through instruments , often as compact as possible , utilizing f ratios that may work satisfactorily for most traditional day - time uses , but which in principle , are properties working AGAINST the qualities that astro - observing would benefit from .
So WHAT if some binoculars end up being 18 or 24 inches long ?
Any other thoughts on this matter ?
Kenny
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1683
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Sounds great! When will the first models be available?
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Bob
38°N
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Wes James
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 3460
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I'll take one!!!
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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Sheriff Bart
member
Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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The binocular telescopes I've seen tend to start at around $1000. Other options included mirror mounts like these...
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=858
http://www.backyard-astro.com/equipment/skywindow.html
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I like to lie down when I use binoculars for astronomy, but it gets a bit tedious holding them up. I'd like to find/build something that would hold them in place while I'm lying on a pad on the ground. I imagine a parallelogram mount would do the job, but that seems more complex than what I really need.
Regards,
SB
Edited by Sheriff Bart (10/29/09 08:02 PM)
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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1768
Loc: Connecticut
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Miyauchi was in that business with very little competition. They had a 100mm RA and the 141mm RA that I'm aware of. They also had the Saturn's which had longish focal ratios. While the price on the 100mm was high, but reasonable, it wasn't affordable to most people.
Most of the other big binoculars use 45 deg oculars or straight through designs. Not many RA models out there. The RA88SA and its 70mm and 100mm versions are about it. Even they aren't exactly inexpensive either.
I'd like an 80mm RA binocular with well made achromat objectives that use the full 80mm aperture. It should also have a well designed prism arrangement that is comfortably large enough to illuminate the exit pupil. At least it shoudn't reduce the effective aperture. The Oberwerk 80-BT is close to what I want except they're not a 90 deg design.
I fear that to get this in an off-the-shelf product, the price is probably similar the Miyauchi and Kowa lines. Still not "affordable" to most.
TANSTAAFL remains true, unfortunately. Hmmm... maybe a bino kit would reduce the price a bit? 
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Djarum
sage
Reged: 03/12/09
Posts: 219
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For someone like me, who only owns a 10x50, however, I own a telescope with many eyepieces, would love an affordable (4-500 dollar) 70-80mm true apeture binocs that take standard 1.25 inch eyepieces. I really wouldn't care how long they are within reason to put on a grap and go type mount.
Dj
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Celestron Astromaster 130eq with a 60mm finderscope
Bushnell Legend 10x50
TMB planetary 5mm EP
Enhanced Wide Angle 6mm EP
Plossl 10mm EP
Plossl 32mm EP
Ultima 2x barlow
Baader M&SG and UHC filters.
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Jay_Bird
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 959
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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I was pondering whether the 70mm+ Miyauchi little Saturns could take the place of my short tube and be an alternative to a p-mount big-bino setup, when Miyauchi went away.
A longer focal ratio, full aperture 70 - 80mm interchangable angled-EP bino capable of 20x 3+° to 50-60x would be very nice for both deep sky and the moon. In hindsight, the little Saturns weren't priced too dearly compared to the still available 80mm+ Highlanders or the other new 70mm RA sets.
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'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon
C-8, Nighthawk, C-90; Binoculars 6-11x21-80mm; Paragon p-mount
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Kenny,
I agree whole-heartedly. I enjoy using my binos, but views near zenith are uncomfortable, to put it mildly. Exactly at that part of the sky where the atmosphere is most transparent, a bino is least comfortable. That is an inherent irony of most astronomical binoculars. Binoculars were originally used for military purposes in armies and navies, and that's still what they are most suited for. Ever since the first binoculars were produced by Lippershey over 400 years ago, they have for the most part clung to a terrestrially-oriented design, at their best when used for searching the horizon: straight-through and correct-image. Well, for astronomy the correct-image part is nice, but the straight-through has got to go. I think there are a lot of amateurs out there hungry for affordable, right-angle binoculars.
Clear Skies,
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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cloudmagnet
member
Reged: 12/04/08
Posts: 36
Loc: Georgetown, Texas
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I too concur. Several years ago, I purchased a pair of Apogee RA-88 binocs as a grab-'n-go alternative to my 14" DOB. They came with 2 sets of EP's- 20X & 32X. I added a red-dot finder, and are on a homebrew alt/az mount atop a Manfrotto (sp?) tripod. I absolutely love them and can't imagine why anyone would want to crane their neck with straight-through binocs.
Edited by cloudmagnet (10/29/09 10:47 PM)
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Oh, no! Now I'm going to want to sell all my binos and buy one with right-angles and replaceable eyepieces! I should'nt have looked in this thread... 
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3196
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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90 deg, 100 mm big brother to the RA 88 is coming to the US market. Price is reasonable.
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=binocular_giant/~pcategory=binoculars/~product_id=09566
Available in the UK already? (Quantum 6 that is)
http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/binoculars/helios/observation_binoculars
Recent reports of QC issues with the GT-100/45 deg( $995) makes me somewhat skeptical. I first saw the 100 mm/45 deg Miyauchi clone introduced by Oberwerk and Burgess in 2003. 6 years later I can't say I would purchase a pair with confidence.
APM is taking deposit for the BT 150mm/90 degs.
I only have one pair of angled binocular with 45 deg EP. 100 mm F7.5. I am quite comfortable with 45 deg viewing. 90 deg is not a must for me. Even at F7.5 100 mm binos show visible purple fringe in day time viewing. I feel ED glass is needed if you want > 100 mm F6 configuration.
150 mm/90 deg ED binos?
Fewer customers= higher per unit R & D cost.
How deep is your pocket? How strong are your biceps?
-----------------------------
We lament the demise of Fuji 25X150 ED, Miyauchi , Takahashi 22X60, Zeiss 15X60 BGAT but too few of us are willing to pay the premium for quality. (myself included)
ERik D
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3196
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
So WHAT if some binoculars end up being 18 or 24 inches long ?
Any other thoughts on this matter ?
Kenny
In my experience, binoculars up to 21 inch long are fine. Keep the weight to ~ 16 lbs or less. No bigger than the GO SS 28X110 or GT 100/45 deg. That way they can be mounted on reasonably priced fluid head and tripod. Manfrotto 503 HDV or the new GO series 5000 fluid head/tripod, for example. A 16 lb OTA with well deigned handle can be carried in one hand.
Heavier than 17 lbs mounting options are more limited. Custom fork mount or extra heavy duty head are required. Tripod legs get heavier. Fluid heads pricier. The 26-28 lb Oberwerk BT 100 45 deg sized bino is no longer a grab and go set-up for most.
ERik D
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I like to lie down when I use binoculars for astronomy, but it gets a bit tedious holding them up. I'd like to find/build something that would hold them in place while I'm lying on a pad on the ground. I imagine a parallelogram mount would do the job, but that seems more complex than what I really need.
Many people have tried to better the parellelogram mount, but nobody has succeeded. The bottom line is that suspending something over you when you're in a reclining position, and providing all the degrees of motion that you want, and keeping everything in balance so that it moves smoothly, and making it adequately steady even in a breeze, requires a pretty big and complex structure. A top-notch parallelogram mount does all of those things; every other solution I've seen (or tried to build myself) fails on at least one, and often two.
Those top-quality p-mounts are big, heavy, and expensive. But boy, are they a joy to use!
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Erik D,
Quote:
90 deg, 100 mm big brother to the RA 88 is coming to the US market. Price is reasonable.
$1199.95 is reasonable? A little lower, please. I think I'll make do with my binoviewer in the meantime: More aperture and more options for a much lower price ... and no problem looking at the zenith. 
The ad at Orion has this disclaimer: "Please note this product was not designed or intended by the manufacturer for use by a child of 12 years of age or younger." I have two questions: (1) Why the disclaimer? Is it because the bino weighs 14.7 lbs and the manufacturer feels that a child would not be able to handle such a hefty instrument? Probably. (2) Why would a parent buy a $1199.95, 14.7 lb, bino for a child in the first place? Conspicuous consumption by proxy?
Clear Skies,
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1768
Loc: Connecticut
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Probably the oculars are too far apart for young children. Your other points are valid too.
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Yessir.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1768
Loc: Connecticut
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Kenny asked for affordable binoculars. I'm guessing that rules out $1000+ instuments. Being reasonable, I think that rules out large ED objectives, massive mounts, etc.
Keeping the size of the objectives reasonable and making them slower might allow a good design without driving costs way up. I think 80mm f/7 objectives with BK7 prisms would be a good compromise to keep costs down.
--------------------
Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3196
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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90 deg, 100 mm big brother to the RA 88 is coming to the US market. Price is reasonable.
Recent reports of QC issues with the GT-100/45 deg( $995) makes me somewhat skeptical.
-----------------------------
We lament the demise of Fuji 25X150 ED, Miyauchi , Takahashi 22X60, Zeiss 15X60 BGAT but too few of us were willing to pay the premium for quality when they were available. (myself included)
ERik D
_________________________________________________________________
"Reasonable" price is relative concept. I don't feel 100mm 90 deg angled binos for much less than $1 K is reasonable expecation. The first generation Chinese clone of Miyauchi 100 mm/ 45 deg were priced ~$995-1195, IIRC. They had major quality issues. Delisted after a few month. Real McCoy Miyauchi 100 mm, ~$2,200. No quality issues. I have been following giant binocualar developement from Japan & Chaina for the past 8 years. Do not recall problem reports with Miyauchi binoculars out of the box: 22X60, M45, Saturn II 71mm/F8, 20X77 Exceed, Saturn III 100mm F7.5 etc.
The 60 mm Tak 22X60 was $1,195, Zeiss 15X60 BGAT ~$1,950. Now that they are gone many are willing to pay that much for USED. I see wanted ads often.
Checked the price of 42 mm Ultravid, Swaro EL, Zeiss FL lately? $1,195 would be bargain price for them. The truth is I am not sure the quality we can expect from 100mm 90 deg Chinese bino even at $ 1,200.
I love a good bargain. Have been going to flea markets for over 20 years. Books, CDs, even a Bogen 3011 tripod for $14! BUT,I would rather spend more for quality binoculars I enjoy using each and every time than 1/3 the price for optics I loath.
Binoviewers? That's a whole different discussion. I understand good ones don't come cheap. My friend has the Denk II with three-way power switch, , a pair of 20 mm Pentax XW 20 mm for his Next Star 11 GPS. It's his main scope. I think his total investment in the binoviewer and a pair of Pentax XWs were ~$2,000. He drove all the way down to the FL star party 5 years ago. He loves the como but not the bulk. Went down to the W Va star party without them this past summer. Told me last night he hasn't taken the C 11/ Denk II out of the case in 2009.
My friend is going to Arizona in 3 weeks. Taking his Canon 10X30 and 18X50 IS. To him ~$1K for a pair of 50 mm binocular is "reasonable". He used them often. I have had them on loan for weeks at a time during the past years. Haven't had the urge to get a pair.
ERik D
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2241
Loc: Washington, USA
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"So WHAT if some binoculars end up being 18 or 24 inches long ?
Supply and Demand. $$$$$
Cheers,
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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RichD
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 567
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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It always comes down to $$$.
While I agree with you to a large extent Kenny, considering how small the community of amateur astronomers that would like a large aperture, 90 deg, long FL high quality binocular (at a reasonable price) must be - I am surprised at the quality and range of gear that is available to us now.
These large 90 deg astro binos are one trick ponies - so the market for them is correspondingly small. I suspect this is why Fujinon are still able to make money with their high end binoculars (FMT series)and giants,as they are designed for, and sell well to, the marine market.The astro market for Fujinon is an added bonus really.
The potential market for such items must be very small indeed - hence why Miyauchi went under.
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Clear skies
Rich
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