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94bamf
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 720
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
Do you accept anything as impossible?
      #3421813 - 10/31/09 12:35 PM

So I was watching one of the "Universe" shows that I recorded with the DVR, it was about "Light speed". It was pretty entertaining, they keep talking about how light speed is the speed limit of the universe and nothing can go faster, except for expanding space, etc..

Anyway, they talked about different ideas of how one day we might break or get around the speed limit by creating a worm hole, warp drive, etc.. The main thing at the end that grabbed my attention was they made the statement, that one day we might discover that going faster than the speed of light is completely impossible, and other ideas like worm holes, warping drives(warping space) might never pan out, and we would basically have to accept the fact that traveling to other star systems is impossible. This got me thinking, because never once have I ever thought that traveling to other star systems would be impossible. I always figured we will find a way eventually, it might take a thousand years, but somehow we would find a way. I don't accept that we will never cure cancer, or any other disease, I just figure it is a matter of time and gaining the technology to do it. I pretty much think about everything like that. I never put any limits on what we as the human race can do with enough time and ever increasing technology. How depressing would it be to one day just accept that we can't travel the stars? I could never accept that..

Ken

--------------------
Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #3421842 - 10/31/09 12:59 PM

Quote:

How depressing would it be to one day just accept that we can't travel the stars? I could never accept that..




I don't find the idea depressing at all; quite the contrary. Reassuring, if anything.

Accepting one's limitations and learning to make the best of them is called "growing up." Without limitations, we would all be lost souls.

I see no reason to believe that humans will ever travel to other stars, but there are infinite other, more meaningful things that we can do. Most of which we probably can't even imagine now.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 601
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3421848 - 10/31/09 01:02 PM

Hi,
Very eloquently put, Tony.

You found just the right words to convey my thoughts exactly.

Regards,

skybsd


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Midnight Dan
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Reged: 01/23/08
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Loc: Brockport, NY
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: skybsd]
      #3421997 - 10/31/09 02:26 PM

Accepting limitations and growing up is probably why young people make all the discoveries!

Seriously though, history is filled with people who said it couldn't be done only to have someone do it a few years later. Even if the speed of light can't be broken, there's the potential of suspended animation for very long trips. We don't have the technology for that either, but the point is that I personally believe we WILL get to the stars one way or another. It won't be in my lifetime, but I don't believe it's impossible.

The problem with "impossible" is that it is based on our current understanding of the general model of physics. Our recent "discoveries" of dark matter and dark energy shows that we really don't understand it all that well. The only thing "dark" means in these names is that we have no idea what the heck is happening in the phenomenon we are observing. There *could* be something called dark energy. But it is just as likely that we are simply misunderstanding some fundamental law of physics - like the speed of light. Fact is ... we just don't know.

I think there's a MUCH bigger impediment to this than the speed of light. There's no question that any potential for getting to the stars is many, many years away. Mankind has achieved the level of technology that we have because we have been around so long and have been lucky to avoid being destroyed by any number of global disasters that could have ended it all. To me, the big issue is not whether we CAN achieve travel to other stars, but whether we'll be around long enough to achieve it. Between global warming, running out of oil, overfishing the oceans, potential wars, asteroid impacts, nearby gamma ray bursts, the impending 2012 disaster (just kidding ), etc. I'm not certain we will.

Just my 2 cents.

-Dan

--------------------
Scopes: Celestron NexStar 8SE, Orion EON 72mm ED/APO, Orion ShortTube 80
Mounts: NexStar Alt/Az GoTo, Orion Astroview (EQ3) w/single axis drive
Eyepieces: Baader Hyperion 36mm (Aspheric), 21mm 13mm, 8mm, 5mm;
Other: 2x & 3x Barlow, 0.63x Focal Reducer, Dew-not strips, DewBuster controller, SQM Meter


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94bamf
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 720
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3422011 - 10/31/09 02:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How depressing would it be to one day just accept that we can't travel the stars? I could never accept that..




I don't find the idea depressing at all; quite the contrary. Reassuring, if anything.

Accepting one's limitations and learning to make the best of them is called "growing up." Without limitations, we would all be lost souls.

I see no reason to believe that humans will ever travel to other stars, but there are infinite other, more meaningful things that we can do. Most of which we probably can't even imagine now.




I keep reading your post, trying to think of a way to respond. All I can come up with is, I disagree..

Ken

--------------------
Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80


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bobmcg
member


Reged: 09/18/07
Posts: 53
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: Midnight Dan]
      #3422028 - 10/31/09 02:45 PM

Travel to other stars might not be impossible in the foreseeable future because a practical method has already been proposed. Stanislav Ulam, a very creative mathematician and physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project, proposed a space ship propelled by nuclear explosions. This would allow acceleration to a large fraction of the speed of light, so trips to nearby stars could be made in a matter of years and there would be no need for suspended animation or "warps" or "worm holes". This idea cannot be tested in part due to treaties forbidding the "nuclearization" of space. See this site for a description: http://www.unmuseum.org/orionproject.htm

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alanon
Nobody tells me anything
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Reged: 06/29/07
Posts: 2631
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3422049 - 10/31/09 02:55 PM

Quote:

Accepting one's limitations and learning to make the best of them is called "growing up." Without limitations, we would all be lost souls.






Hi Tony,

With all due respect, I tend to disagree with this statement as well. I believe that the day we stop testing the boundaries of our capability is the day we lose our souls. Granted, our quest for the ever greater ability can be detrimental, but it has the potential as one of man's greatest attributes.

I have never been one for staying within the lines.

Edited by alanon (10/31/09 03:00 PM)


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glava2005
member


Reged: 04/12/09
Posts: 89
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: alanon]
      #3422106 - 10/31/09 03:48 PM

two major factors to concider about possible faster then light travel or space folding..

if faster then light travel is possible some other race from our or some other galaxy would have probably reached us by now in 13.7 billion years that the universe existed.

so either we are the 1st civilization to arise in our galaxy and part of the universe or faster then light travel is not possible.

--------------------
Sky-Watcher ED80
TS Astro5 mount


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earthbot1
super member


Reged: 08/27/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Central Virginia
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: glava2005]
      #3422152 - 10/31/09 04:20 PM

One day a brilliant mind will blow our current understanding away! There may be others already there, but space is a vast place.

--------------------
Nexstar 8
Meade/Celestron EPs
Bushnell 90mm Mak-Cass


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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: alanon]
      #3422161 - 10/31/09 04:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Accepting one's limitations and learning to make the best of them is called "growing up." Without limitations, we would all be lost souls.




With all due respect, I tend to disagree with this statement as well. I believe that the day we stop testing the boundaries of our capability is the day we lose our souls.




Quite so -- that's precisely my point!

The key to a successful and happy life is finding the *right* boundaries to be testing. If I had set out to be an Olympic athlete, I would have failed. And the harder I tried and the more I cared, the more unhappy I would have been. I was not born in the right body.

More to the point, if I had tried to be an Olympic athlete, I would have wasted my energy, and been unable to attack a whole host of other challenges. Some of which I've been successful at, others not. But if I were successful at all of them, they wouldn't be challenges.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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NerfMonkey
sage
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Reged: 06/12/08
Posts: 482
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: glava2005]
      #3422164 - 10/31/09 04:29 PM

Quote:

if faster then light travel is possible some other race from our or some other galaxy would have probably reached us by now in 13.7 billion years that the universe existed.




Says who? Maybe these ultra-advanced civilizations are only interested in traveling to worlds with civilizations on the same level of technology and intelligence as themselves (i.e., the ability to navigate interstellar space). Maybe we humans just aren't all that interesting to space-faring aliens.

--------------------
Mike
Zhumell 12", Oberwerk 15x70s
107 Messiers, 247 total DSOs, 6 planets, 1 comet


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lightfever
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Reged: 09/27/04
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: glava2005]
      #3422204 - 10/31/09 04:52 PM

Quote:

so either we are the 1st civilization to arise in our galaxy and part of the universe or faster then light travel is not possible.




The universe is a big place and they may just never have come across our little corner.

I sometimes wonder what if we are the first intelligence, and the responsibility that places on us. How pitiful it would be if we destroyed ourselves or did not try to inhabit other corners of the galaxy.

And yes I think we will travel to other stars.

--------------------
Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount

"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown


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jayscheuerle
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: NerfMonkey]
      #3422216 - 10/31/09 05:01 PM

Believing that anything is possible is a huge part of the problem as we tend to think that our follies will be fixed by future generations. "Technology will save us" is the mantra of the scientifically interested, but ignorant masses. Whether it's overpopulation or environmental and microbiological alterations, we have faith (yes, "faith") that every wrong direction we take can be easily cured by a brilliant idea.

This isn't to say that we don't want to attempt to be great and nurture the hopes and dreams of our geniuses, but to count on them to fix our mistakes is a really, really, REALLY bad bet.

In terms of faster than light travel, when you understand the great distances between celestial objects and the amount of energy it takes to accelerate even the most feeble mass to anywhere near light-speed, to realize how incredibly unlikely it will be that such travel will ever come to pass. It makes great fantasy, but to invest much time in truly believing it will come to pass is a poor use of that time.

As a matter of fact, even debating such nonsense is time I could be making some pumpkin soup, so off to the kitchen I go! - j

--------------------
Fight indignorance!

The Green Goblin - 12" of dobsonian excellence!

The PortaBowl-a $100 4.5" f/8 ball-scope YOU can build!

Eero2-a 6" f/5 ball-scope you probably can't.


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lightfever
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: jayscheuerle]
      #3422256 - 10/31/09 05:26 PM

Quote:

the amount of energy it takes to accelerate even the most feeble mass to anywhere near light-speed,




We don't yet understand what causes mass, but when this is understood it may be possible to counteract it's effect.

--------------------
Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount

"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown


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HiggsBoson
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: lightfever]
      #3422584 - 10/31/09 08:34 PM

Wow, a lot of interesting points here in this thread.

Do you accept anything as impossible?

Yes! It is not possible that I won the lottery last year. I did not enter. Even if they gave me the money they would be doing so in error because I did not legally enter. I am comfortable with the notion that this is impossible.

If the word impossible is to have meaning then something must actually be impossible. The word is however constrained by a set of assumptions that are usually unstated.

When asked is something possible as a physicist, my answer is constrained by my understanding of physics. For example I find it amusing to tell people that I know how to build a time machine. Later I tell them that it only works in the forward direction and I have no theoretical basis for a machine to go in the reverse direction.

If I am asked if it is possible to do something as an engineer. I use a different set of criteria. No longer am I allowed to use unobtainable materials or scandalous amounts of energy. From an engineering prospective I can build a Starship Enterprise that would have many of the key features of the version D used in the TV show called TNG. However, I can find no practical way to fuel the thing. To go from stationary to c/2 would require about 80 times the mass of the ship in H2. To do a one way trip to anywhere would require 80 squared and a round trip requires 80 to the 4th power times the mass of the ship in fuel. These are not achievable by any technology I can imagine and we have not yet turned on the warp drive.

I compare this to the fate of the old NASA jet packs. Yes they work and 4 were built. We do not use them because of the fueling problem. They could only fly for about 35 seconds. The weight of the fuel must be lifted with the payload prior to use. Adding more fuel added to the weight and did not add to the flying time. A point of diminishing returns was reached and development ceased. Like my time machine the jet pack was possible but not useful.

I do not agree with the assessment of the TV show that it is impossible to get to nearby stars as I have been aware of an architecture for this for many years. I assert that solar sailing will allow a large ship to travel to a handful of nearby stars within a human life span ( 30 -40 years round trip.) One can imagine that we will do this within the next 200 years. It is certainly not impossible in principle. Neither physics nor engineering prohibits such travel.

For many years I have heard the lamentation of those who hang their hopes on some theoretical break through that will sweep away the speed of light limit. To those I suggest more reading. While the natural speed limit does make long distance travel seem to be precluded one must read the rest of the theory. The time dilation works in favor of the traveler. If one can travel near the speed of light this dilation effect slows the passage of time for the traveler relative to a stationary point such as the origin and the target. This means that our range is very much larger than we at first imagine at the expense of loss of relationships with those who do not travel.

If a 20 year old traveler takes a trip at near light speed that last for 1 year, it is possible that the travelers parents will have died of old age upon his or her return at the age of 21. In fact the world may change in some substantial way which my be displeasing to the returning traveler. This is the risk taken by the relativistic traveler. But the traveler is not prohibited by relativity from visiting the center of the galaxy. Such things are possible and the effects have been observed in the laboratory.

To the original question we do have to admit that nature seems to have handed us some fundamental limitations. We must face these. A large part of my interest in physics is about drawing lines between what nature allows us to do and what it does not. It is always possible that our understanding will change but I do not find this productive. New theories are generally developed by those who are dedicated to understanding what is there. Einstein did not just say what if measurements of c were always the same. He was responding to the observed fact that all measurements of c came out the same. He asked what else must be true if that is true. This lead him to relativity. The attitude is what is nature. Many are motivated simply by the fact that they do not like the answers we have so far. I fall among those who want to imagine everything that can be done with the understanding we now have. This is why I have little interest in new theories. I am not waiting for anything. I just would like to understand what we do have and push that to the limits.

--------------------
Michael

ATM: 6" F/9 Newtonian Travel Scope
ATM: 12.5" F/4.5 Real Soon Now...


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llanitedaveModerator
Humble Megalomaniac
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Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: HiggsBoson]
      #3422653 - 10/31/09 09:12 PM

I accept two things as impossible.

Three, actually.

1. Avoiding death.
2. Avoiding taxes.
3. Having an unmoderated debate forum that remains civil on every topic.

We've got #3 compensated for, so let's make sure this discussion stays friendly to all.

--------------------
"Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."



"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror

Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!


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Doug76
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3422672 - 10/31/09 09:23 PM

I believe accepting limitations is tantamount to quitting, and success will not come from that.
So no, I don't believe anything is impossible, given hard work and a good vision of what one is looking to achieve.
Mankind, using the wits God gave him, has time and again come up with ways to improve our lives, and ways to save us in our time in need. It seems every time we hit a threshold moment, we come through, and I expect that will keep happening, if we can keep the naysayers in check, and the do-gooder regulators.

--------------------
Doug
Truckstop Astronomer


The Universe, the light of God, in all it's majesty

6 achro refractors, 50mm-150mm
1 apo refractor, 90mm
1 SCT, 8 inch
UO Abbe Volcano Tops
Faworski Ortho's
Panoptic 24mm

Carton 100mm f/13 under construction


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llanitedaveModerator
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3422677 - 10/31/09 09:26 PM

I have to both agree and disagree with Tony. First, I agree that there are certain built-in limitations in reality that we need to learn to accept if we are to make progress. I don't think those limitations are actually disadvantageous, on the contrary, they constitute "the rules of the game", that once learned, allow you to become expert at playing that game. I don't think anyone would enjoy "no rules football", in fact, if there were no rules, and no structure, it wouldn't be a playable game at all. It is the limitations imposed by nature that give the universe its structure, its complexity, and ultimately its beauty and awesomeness.

Second, I disagree that we as a species (or the descendants of this species) are prevented from traveling to the stars by these limitations. Individually, we will never do it, but there's no reason that we can't develop technology, both material and biological, that will allow us to eventually colonize the galaxy.

Faster than light travel is not required, not even near-light speed travel. Rather than challenge the laws of physics, it is perfectly possible to work within them, to allow our descendants very long lives, allow them to extract resources from asteroids and comets that they encounter along the way or at the edges of star systems, and conserve energy efficiently enough to make it to the next star system.

Traveling at a mere 1% of the speed of light would be extremely fast, yet that would allow folks to arrive at several nearby star systems within a single modern lifetime. Extended lifetimes, the ability to conserve energy along the way, and the ability to efficiently extract hydrogen energy and raw materials from icy bodies in the Oort Cloud would get us most of the way there with a relatively modest advance over today's technology.

Even if those completing the journey are a later generation than those who began it, there's no reason it can't be done by humans.

The debate comes from whether or not we would want to.

--------------------
"Since the process of science generates more mysteries than it solves, I predict that we'll never learn everything: and we'll continue to generate new ignorance at the speed of knowledge."



"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
10" Homebuilt dob, old Coulter mirror

Under Construction: The "Eye of Sauron" Observatory!


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ColoHank
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #3422710 - 10/31/09 09:48 PM

Quote:

The debate comes from whether or not we would want to.




We might also debate, given the ability and desire for such travel, whether we actually should. Ability and desire alone aren't an adequate justification. There are lots of things we can do that we shouldn't do.

--------------------
---------------------
Questar 3.5 standard - pyrex and BB coatings
Powerguide II
8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and 32mm Brandons
modified Bogen 3030 w/ homebuilt wedge
Homebuilt Galileo scope and very large and ugly homemade tripod
other odds and ends, including iPod Touch with StarMap Pro (what a marvelous combo)...
---------------------
"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."
Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.


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Joad
Wordsmith
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Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: Do you accept anything as impossible? new [Re: ColoHank]
      #3422739 - 10/31/09 10:02 PM

There are even limits to the imagination: it is impossible to imagine what we cannot imagine.

--------------------
12.5 inch Portaball + Osypowski platform
LX10
Oberwerk BT100 45° binocular
Orion binoviewer + ScopeStuff extender (so it focuses at f/4.9)


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