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Prof M
member
Reged: 07/26/09
Posts: 49
Loc: Southwest Utah
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I am trying to decide what eyepieces to buy for my humble Astroview 120ST. I have been told two stories: One, don't buy high quality EPs for a low-end scope. Others tell me a good EP improves any telescope. Any ideas as to which view is correct? Keith
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russell23
sage
Reged: 05/31/09
Posts: 427
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
I am trying to decide what eyepieces to buy for my humble Astroview 120ST. I have been told two stories: One, don't buy high quality EPs for a low-end scope. Others tell me a good EP improves any telescope. Any ideas as to which view is correct? Keith
I have a 120mm f/8.3 Celestron achro and I also a few months ago tried a 150mm f/5 celestron achro with several of my eyepieces.
I've used 10mm, 14mm, 20mm, 30mm, and 40mm XW's. I've also used a 17mm T4 Nagler, 24mm, 32mm and 48mm Brandon's, 27mm Panoptic, 9mm, 12.5mm, and 14.5mm Orion edge on planetary EP, 27mm and 19mm Orion Edge on, 15mm, 15.5mm, and 19mm Russell optics Konigs, 18mm Orion Epic ED2, 26mm Sirius plossl, 42mm GSO superview, 38mm and 32mm Orion Q70's, 32mm UO Konig, 24mm UO Konig, 28mm RKE, 13mm Siebert Ultra, 48mm plossl, ...
Based upon my experiences with all these eyepieces, eyepiece quality makes a significant difference. I disagree with the notion that your viewing experience is not different in a mediocre scope if you use premium EP.
Without question the best results in my 120mm f/8.3 have been with the Brandons, XW's, Panoptic, and Nagler. Among the low cost EP the Orion Edge On planetary and Russell optics 15mm and 19mm Konigs were by far the best. In fact, - with the exception of edge performance, there is very little difference between the XW's and the RO Konigs.
Now one caveat regarding the XW's. When I tried them in the 150mm f/5 the edge performance with the XW's was significantly worse. They are almost sharp to the edge in the f/8.3. However, the lower quality EP were even worse in performance in the f/5 scope.
So based upon testing of all the above EP over the last 6 months I would argue that you can make gains in observing results by using premium EP with a mediocre scope.
Short version: The second of your two stories is the better from my experience.
Dave
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dpwoos
sage
Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 218
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No eyepiece, however expensive, will make a bad optic perform like a good optic. Expensive eyepieces do some things very well, but not this. I recommend that you observe with others and compare scope/eyepiece merits for yourself. Personally, I would rather observe with a great scope and a $25 plossl than a mediocre scope and a $600 eyepiece.
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David E
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 3021
Loc: North Carolina
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Quote:
I am trying to decide what eyepieces to buy for my humble Astroview 120ST. I have been told two stories: One, don't buy high quality EPs for a low-end scope. Others tell me a good EP improves any telescope. Any ideas as to which view is correct? Keith
Both are correct. On one hand, it's easy to get quality eyepieces for around $50 these days, Plossls in the Sterling or Vixen brands' or University Optics Orthoscopics for example. So you don't have to break the bank to get nice views from quality eyepieces. On the other hand, my experience is that "premium" eyepieces (i.e. $200 on up by my definition) do indeed tend to correct better for your scope's inherent abberations. I've noticed this with both budget achromats and my budget priced mass-produced Zhummel Dobsonian.
I might look at it this way. If you plan on upgrading your telescope some day I'd lean toward getting premium eyepieces, as you can always use them with any new telescope. But if you think this scope is it, I'd look for the lower cost eyepieces, in the $50-100 bracket.
-------------------- David E
If you keep a stack of old Orion catalogs in your bathroom, you might be an astro-redneck.
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russell23
sage
Reged: 05/31/09
Posts: 427
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
No eyepiece, however expensive, will make a bad optic perform like a good optic. Expensive eyepieces do some things very well, but not this.
But the 120mm f/5 ST is not a "bad optic", it is a mediocre optic. It is a fast achromat -- which is not particularly useful for planetary observations, but can do quite well with deep sky. A premium EP will get the maximum the 120mm ST can produce whereas a cheap EP is already less than the best you can get from an EP and then you combine it with a mediocre scope. Mediocre x garbage is not going to be as good as mediocre x a diamond.
Quote:
I recommend that you observe with others and compare scope/eyepiece merits for yourself.
I agree with this. The more you can see and test for yourself the better.
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russell23
sage
Reged: 05/31/09
Posts: 427
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
Quote:
I am trying to decide what eyepieces to buy for my humble Astroview 120ST. I have been told two stories: One, don't buy high quality EPs for a low-end scope. Others tell me a good EP improves any telescope. Any ideas as to which view is correct? Keith
Both are correct. On one hand, it's easy to get quality eyepieces for around $50 these days, Plossls in the Sterling or Vixen brands' or University Optics Orthoscopics for example. So you don't have to break the bank to get nice views from quality eyepieces. On the other hand, my experience is that "premium" eyepieces (i.e. $200 on up by my definition) do indeed tend to correct better for your scope's inherent abberations. I've noticed this with both budget achromats and my budget priced mass-produced Zhummel Dobsonian.
I might look at it this way. If you plan on upgrading your telescope some day I'd lean toward getting premium eyepieces, as you can always use them with any new telescope. But if you think this scope is it, I'd look for the lower cost eyepieces, in the $50-100 bracket.
I think it depends upon what he wants to do with the scope. If he is looking to get a 70 or 80 degree field EP, then why not go with a Nagler? It will provide much better edge correction than any of the cheap wide-fields -- and with an f/5 scope that is a significant gain.
The thing is about trying out some premium EP on a mediocre scope is that you get an idea of the best you are ever going to get from that scope. I personally don't think people should settle for mediocre EP with a mediocre scope. Find out the limits of the scope's capability with the premium EP and then that will help you decide whether or not you need to move to another scope.
Since he asked the question it is obvious the current mediocre scope with mediocre (or worse) EP is not working for him. His choices are to get better EP, get a better scope, or both.
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kroum
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/28/08
Posts: 630
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
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A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, likewise your optical train is limited by the lowest quality component. Using good quality eyepieces will allow the full potential of the telescope to be realized.
The decision of whether it is worth it to spend several times more on eyepieces as the telescope costs is a different question however.
-------------------- 10in Hardin Optical Dob
100mm f6 Orion Achromat
6in Orion Short Tube Reflector
15X70 Barska Binoculars
32mm Astrola (Boo!)
25mm, 12.5mm Sterling Plossls
20mm Orion Expanse
9mm Hardin (GSO) Plossl
7.5mm Orion Ultrascopic
Ultima 2X shorty barlow
Turn on, tune in, and look through the eyepiece.
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ibase
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/20/08
Posts: 1568
Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
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Quote:
I am trying to decide what eyepieces to buy for my humble Astroview 120ST. I have been told two stories: One, don't buy high quality EPs for a low-end scope. Others tell me a good EP improves any telescope. Any ideas as to which view is correct? Keith
IMHO, a nice solution/compromise to this dilemma would be to get a mid-level EP like say the Hyperion 8-24mm zoom. If in the future you move up to a hi-end scope, you wouldn't need to upgrade the EP because it's not so far off in terms of performance compared to the uber expensive premium EP's. It works just as well in my WO Megrez 102ED refractor as it does with my humbler Orion ST-80.
Best,
-------------------- Hernando
Nexstar 8/CG-5 ASGT; WO Megrez 102ED SV; Antares 6" 1529; WO ZS66SD; Orion ST80
TV Naglers 5T6, 9T1, 12T2; Panoptic27; Hyperion 8-24mm Zoom,21mm; WO 7.5-22.5mm
BO/TMB 2.5/3.2/4/6mm;UO HD 5;BGO 6;Meade-RGO 7;UO-V 9/12.5;Brandon 16mm;Ultima18
TV 2x,3x barlow&8/11/15/20/32plossl; Aspheric31;Siebert36-OB;Paragon40;Meade56Smoothie
C-f/6.3FR;OIII,UHC,SkyGlow,U-block,8"S-flter;GLP/Telrad/MRF/9x50RACI; NexImge;Canon RebelXS
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3959
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, likewise your optical train is limited by the lowest quality component.
Yes, and I might add that there are many chains here, not just one, and off-axis it can easily be the eyepiece that is by far the weakest link, even with mediocre telescope optics. Possibly you might want to avoid paying $600 for a short focal length planetary eyepiece if spherical aberration, chromatic aberrations, or excessive scatter from the telescope optics are just going to dominate on-axis. Generally speaking, though, a good quality, well-corrected eyepiece is a joy in any telescope, regardless of how modest.
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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j3ffr0
sage
Reged: 07/06/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Virginia
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Most of the time I use pretty high end eyepieces (Naglers and Pans) in my 120ST (the dielectric diagonal makes a difference too). However the times have use my Expanses in the 120ST, I've been pretty pleased. BTW - I mainly use the 120ST as a wide-field/DSO scope as well as grab and go.
All my scopes are mediocre (price wise), but I some get fantabulous views out of them. I like my high end eyepieces, but my Expanses are pretty decent too. Due to my own biases, I say there is nothing wrong with using a high end EP in a mediocre scope. However, I also think it's likely that you might be just as satisfied with mid-priced EPs like the Hyperions.
-------------------- 10" Dob, 127mm Mak, 120mm f5 achro, PST
35, 24 Panoptic; 16, 13, 9, 3-6 Nagler
15, 10, 7.5, 5, 3.8 Ultrascopic
20, 15, 9, 6 Expanse
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RAKing
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 2092
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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I still have my Celestron C102 XLT and I would call it a "modest" scope (not mediocre). I still take it out a few times a year and use Ethos and Pentax XW eyepieces. All of the eyepieces work quite well and the stars are super sharp with great contrast. All in all, this modest little 4 inch refractor still looks pretty good to me. I agree with the group that says a premium eyepiece can make any telescope work to its fullest potential.
Buying a premium scope can be expensive and not all of us will ever be able to get one. But we can upgrade our occulars to make the most out of the scope we have - plus a premium eyepiece can be a lifetime investment.
My .02,
Ron
-------------------- Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.
Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.
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chuckscap
sage
Reged: 07/18/09
Posts: 229
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO USA
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I agree with David, you may trade up scopes eventually, I have been through 5 scopes and still have some of my original eyepieces. Giving up nothing in performance with the exception of field of view. I'd recommend the TeleVue 32mm plossl and for a higher magnification eyepiece one of the original volcano top University Optics Orthos in 12.5mm and a decent 2x barlow. That will give you focal lenghts of 32, 16, 12.5 and 6.25 mm for about $250.
My two cents ...
Chuck
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3959
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
However, I also think it's likely that you might be just as satisfied with mid-priced EPs like the Hyperions.
I agree with that. Nowadays, there are so many good options in the middle area when it comes to cost.
Just to add something to my previous response, while I wouldn't hesitate to use premium eyepieces on mediocre telescopes, hopefully acquiring finer eyepieces doesn't postpone upgrading the scope! That would be unfortunate.
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think
   
Reged: 08/01/07
Posts: 1229
Loc: Blue Island Illinois
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I started on my own personal eyepiece journey asking the very same question. From my experience, I have had larger jumps in viewing quality changing eyepieces then scopes. High quality eyepieces show you more in a cheap scope than cheap eyepieces do in an expensive scope. Your scope is not "cheap" BTW, it simply has a narrower range of usefulness than some other designs. Your scope is well suited for wide-field and DSO-finding rather than planetary use, so your money would be well spent on wide-field well corrected eyepieces like a Panoptic or Nagler, 35mm-17mm, something around 100x-125x for Globular clusters and nebula. I would hold off on highpower eyepieces, maybe borrow someone else's first to determine of you like what you see. I highly recommend any of the eyepieces in my signature and my refractor is a longer version of your very scope. Good luck! Sean
-------------------- Sean Cunneen
Blue Island, IL
12.5" Ultralight Strut Dob
127mm f/9 refractor
35Pan, 10XW, 5XO
Member of the Calumet Astronomical Society
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cuzimthedad
Just Be Cuz
   
Reged: 04/09/06
Posts: 3725
Loc: Sonoma, Northern California
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My first scope was a 3" newt supplied with mediocre eyepieces. On a hunch, I purchased a good plossl and noticed a huge difference in light transmission and the quality of my views. A good eyepiece will always make a poor scope better.
-------------------- Dan
20" f/5 Obsession
Antares 1529
TV102
Various Naglers, Ethos, UO Orthos and TV Plossls
The Off Fisher Lane Irregulars
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Darenwh
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/11/06
Posts: 1224
Loc: Covington, GA
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Basically, as some have said, it comes down to what you see yourself doing in the future. If you believe you are in this hobby to the end then get some decent quality eyepieces and avoid the lower quality eyepieces.
Think of it this way.
Lets assign a number for errors added to the image at each stage.
When the light that you are viewing is on it's way to the scope it is as perfect as possible for that time. Error equals 0.
Optical problems with the first optical element start to hurt the image. Lets say it is an average lens so give it a value of 4. There are dogs out there that could rate much worse but most currently made telescopes have at least OK optics for their design. In that reguard we live in a very good time. A great objective will have a vallue of 1 and an average lens a value of 4 with a poor lens maybe going as high as 8 or (god forbid) a 10.
Once the image has been damaged by that first element it will never be as good as it was. Currently the image is a 4.
Now, each element that follows will do additional damage to the image. Lets take a decent diagonal. Not great but not bad, so we give it a 4. There are not alot of truly bad diagonals on the market so it is likely yours is at least OK. When you decide to upgrade, if you have a 2" focuser, then get a 2" diagonal. It can be used with any eyepiece and is likely to have a larger nearly perfect region than a 1.25".
Ok, Now the image has a cumulated error of 8.
Now, eyepieces can be really bad or really good. So, lets give a range to the eyepiece, 1 to 10. 1 is great, 10 is horrible.
So what will the total error be? If we use a truly excellent eyepiece we only get an error of 1 giving a total of 9, but, if we use an eyepiece that give a poor image we end up with an 18.
In the end, you are not seeing an image that is as bad as the worst component in the optical path, but rather you are seeing an image that is the result of the cumulative damage done to it by all the optical elements. If you strive to get the best you can at each point then in the end you will get the best image you can.
If you get great quallity eyepieces to begin with then you will not only get the best quality image you can out of your current scope, but you will also get the best possible image from that same eyepiece in any scope you get in the future. Doing this, you will feel less need to upgrade eyepieces in the future.
Eyepieces can be expensive. They are more expensive when you buy them over and over again though than they are when you start with quality so you do not have to buy over and over again.
Ok, lets wrap this post up. In the end, you really only need a few eyepieces to have a good collection for viewing. At the wide angle, low power side, you should strive for something with an exit pupil of about 6-7mm's. This will give you a wide angle eyepiece that will make a great finder eyepiece and a great sweeping eyepiece for looking at large areas such as along the Milkyway star clouds. Next, you should try to get a decent mid power eyepiece. Something that will give you about 2mm exit pupil. Last, for high power and planets, I really think the Baader Hyperion Zoom is a great eyepiece. It offers excellent images with a large power range that can be very desirable at higher powers while not being so expensive as to break the bank for most people. With a collection of three eyepieces like this you could go through a truly large number of scopes without needing to upgrade much at all.
-------------------- Daren
Covington, GA
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3959
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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I guess the devil's in the details. It depends on what you mean by "changing scopes". I've never seen any eyepiece comparison (of undamaged, mainstream astronomical eyepieces) that even comes close to the improvement I experienced when replacing a Celestar 8 with a 10" Teleport. For that matter, my 7" homebuilt scope replaced an excellent 6" MCT, and no eyepiece change I've ever seen compares with that, either. I'm talking raw axial performance here, not any kind of aesthetic measure.
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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hfjacinto
Almost got me
   
Reged: 01/12/09
Posts: 2096
Loc: Union,NJ
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I agree with Mike, I don't think an Ethos on a Celestron first scope is the ideal solution. IMO a good eyepiece on a good scope is the best that most people will want.
I think getting a larger DOB, APO or CAT with a set of good to very good eyepieces will give one the best views at a reasonable cost.
I don't think you need the best to get the best view, most people with an 8" CAT and Hyperion eyepieces are very happy with the views they get. I am a firm believer in the 90% rule which is that the biggest differences come from the first 90% of any purchase, the last 10% are very costly and you will get very little benefit for the last 10%.
-------------------- C9.25 ASGT 9*50 MM Finder,FT Focuser & 2" Diagonal
Meade LXD 75 6 Inch SNT w 9*50 MM Finder
5,6,9,14.5 MM Zhummel Planetary EPs
13,17,21,24,31,36 MM Baader Hyperion
6.7,8.8 MM Meade UWA & 11 MM Nagler T6
Planetary, OIII and Narrowband Filters
Thousand Oaks Dew Control w Kendrick Heaters
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starrancher
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 620
Loc: Northern Arizona
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My suggestion to the OP is to not be in a hurry to run out & spend all kinds of cash on oculars thinking he will achieve nirvana .
Quote:
On a hunch, I purchased a good plossl and noticed a huge difference in light transmission and the quality of my views.
Plossls are reasonably priced & unless you're looking for a wider AFOV than 50 to 52 degrees , they are undoubtedly the best bang for your buck . (Baader Hyperion Zoom aside) only due to the fact that you get a wide range of focal lengths in one package . I know that the weakest link in the optical chain of my mass produced achromat was the cheap o diagonal that was supplied with it & that was the first thing kicked out of the way by the William Optics Dielectric unit that replaced it . More than replacing oculars at this point I would suggest starting with a good diagonal . (Also mentioned by others in previous replies) . Keep in mind you don't have to spend big bucks to achieve great views , although in the OPs' case where a relatively fast scope is involved , there is some discrepancy to that . I still use nothing but Plossls (Baader Hyperion Zoom aside) & love them . A 52 degree apparent field of view is fine with me & eye relief isn't bothersome either until I get down to the 6.4mm unit . I don't wear glasses so it isn't an issue . All that aside , I use Meade 4000 series Plossls in my f4 Schmidt Newt with excellent results until I get to the lowest end in power using the 32mm unit & the exit pupil is 8mm at that point & showing astigmatism at the edge of field . It's hard to beat a good Plossl !
-------------------- LXD75 AR5
LXD75 SN8
Series 4000 Plossls
Misc. other stuff
Fort Rock , Az .
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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think
   
Reged: 08/01/07
Posts: 1229
Loc: Blue Island Illinois
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The OP is not changing scopes, just eyepieces, so what is better, cheap eyepieces in a cheap scope or expensive eyepieces in a cheap scope. At f5, you will appreciate a well corrected(expensive)eyepiece more, regardless of the scope's price. I guess my original point was that you are better off going with better eyepieces EVEN if you never change scopes.
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