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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help...
      #3427280 - 11/03/09 11:52 AM

Hello, this is my first post on these forums. I was hoping someone could help me identify the cause of this optic aberration I am seeing when attempting astrophotography. All the images have been taken with a canon 350d dslr. In these images the camera and telescope are both mounted on a static tripod. If someone could view the images (I will post them at the bottom of my post) and, tell me if you recognize the problem.



another image I took of the moon.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/test2.jpg


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MitchAlsup
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Reged: 08/31/09
Posts: 186
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427293 - 11/03/09 11:59 AM

What I see is the movement of the heavens--also known as the rotation of the earth around its poles.

Even at a very short 24mm of focal lenght, a 30 seecond image will show 3 pixels of movement on a 8MP camera.

In order to get images of stars or constelations, you need the camera to be mounted on a polar aligned drive.


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #3427316 - 11/03/09 12:20 PM

I am well aware of the earth's rotation. The tail on the brightest star does not seem to be in the correct direction to be the earths rotation. It also does not look like a normal star trail and, it looks broken up... odd...

Edited by Photon_Wrangler (11/03/09 12:23 PM)


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BradC
sage


Reged: 01/31/07
Posts: 448
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427390 - 11/03/09 12:52 PM

Can you tell us about the exposure length of the picture above? What can you tell us about your custom telescope? Primary size and focal length? Where did you pick up the primary?

Also wondering how stars look to your eyes when you put in an eyepiece? Any sign of problems when used visually?

I don't do astrophotography, but there are a huge amount of other issues that might have nothing to do with the scope itself. Stability and tracking, as Mitch mentioned, are typically pretty high on that list.

Other than appearing slightly soft (out of focus), the moon picture you've linked doesn't look bad.

--------------------
My God! It's full of stars!

Zhumell 10" dob - First Light Report
Celestron OptiView 10x50 LPR Binoculars


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427394 - 11/03/09 12:55 PM

I cropped and uploaded a longer exposure. Perhaps it will help identify the problem. Perhaps, the new photo will create an unilluminating haze and, completely confound the issue.



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perfessor
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Reged: 12/30/07
Posts: 499
Loc: Northern Illinois
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427403 - 11/03/09 01:02 PM

That brightest "star" wouldn't be Jupiter, would it? That could explain the associated trails. But it sure looks like rotational drift to me.

--------------------
Tom
"Don't always know what I'm talkin about"
8" f/7


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BradC
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Reged: 01/31/07
Posts: 448
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427404 - 11/03/09 01:02 PM

Still just looks like star trails from an unguided exposure.
Looking back, the first one kind of looks like the tripod got bumped.

What are we looking at here? Is that Jupiter?

Still would be helpful to know the actual exposure lengths of these pics.

Are you doing afocal photography? (ie, positioning the lens of the camera up to an eyepiece)? What kind of eyepiece?

--------------------
My God! It's full of stars!

Zhumell 10" dob - First Light Report
Celestron OptiView 10x50 LPR Binoculars


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
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Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: BradC]
      #3427436 - 11/03/09 01:15 PM

Yes, I can tell you about the exposure length and the diameter of the lens. Focal length will have to wait till I can find my drawings for the scope, I do not want to say the wrong number. First, the exposure length of the first image was five seconds at iso 1600 and the second image was 20 seconds at the same iso. The lens is 60 mm diameter. I am doing prime focus photography with the telescope serving as the lens of the camera. To be honest I was not trying to take an image of something specific. I was simply trying to see if the stars were point sources or bloated and distorted. I am sure that it is not Jupiter. It was just a random star I chose. It is an old Jaegers lens I found on ebay.

Edited by Photon_Wrangler (11/03/09 01:36 PM)


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427484 - 11/03/09 01:44 PM

I measured the focal length roughly at 120 cm. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find my drawings; I have been doing a lot of reorganization of my things lately.

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BradC
sage


Reged: 01/31/07
Posts: 448
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427515 - 11/03/09 01:58 PM

Not a problem on the exact focal length, ballpark is fine. Thanks for the extra detail, that really helps.

I think what you are seeing here is a very bright star (or possibly a planet, again Jupiter seems likely) and its trail, plus the fainter trails of a few other nearby stars (or Jupiter's moons, if thats what they are).

You may have a slight issue with exact focus, and the second photo shows lots of skyglow. This is all in addition to the tracking issue we've already discussed.

All that to say, I don't see anything wrong with your scope (from the info given anyway). How do stars look visually through an eyepiece?

The main problem is that Astrophotography is *hard*. Dang hard. Even if you get good tracking (which isn't easy, even on excellent equipment), you still have to worry about lots of other stuff (which I don't have direct experience with, just enjoy reading these boards). Focus, exposure times, skyglow compensation, post-processing, tripod stability, vibration, field flatness, chromatic aberration, etc...

I would recommend a couple of things:
First of all, do you have any *really short* exposures to show us? Like under 1 second? That should eliminate the field rotation issue and let us see if there is any other underlying artifacts.

I also recommend browsing or posting in the Beginning Imaging forum here:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/low

--------------------
My God! It's full of stars!

Zhumell 10" dob - First Light Report
Celestron OptiView 10x50 LPR Binoculars


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: BradC]
      #3427682 - 11/03/09 03:26 PM

Here is the shortest exposure I have taken. I am not sure how long it was. It was probably exposed for 1 or 2 seconds. I am beginning to wonder if the tripod I am using is vibrating when I take an exposure. The rig I currently am using with this telescope is not the most stable. I wish there was some way to "fake" a star. Hopefully, I can piggyback the whole thing on my main lxd75 mount. Could bad collimation cause this problem? I used a laser to make sure the focuser was centered with the lens.

Here is the image:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/IMG_2912.jpg

And here is an image of my lxd75 just for showing off. I intend to put a 10 inch Newtonian on it that is currently in my basement.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/telescopeshowoff.jpg


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BradC
sage


Reged: 01/31/07
Posts: 448
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427781 - 11/03/09 04:12 PM

Tripod vibration seems like a likely culprit for that last one. Are you setting the camera timer, or controlling it remotely? Or are you physically pressing the shutter?

--------------------
My God! It's full of stars!

Zhumell 10" dob - First Light Report
Celestron OptiView 10x50 LPR Binoculars


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MitchAlsup
super member


Reged: 08/31/09
Posts: 186
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: BradC]
      #3427847 - 11/03/09 04:48 PM

In:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/IMG_2912.jpg

We see the dimension of the star trails at the lower center.

The bright object in the right middle has a number of effects going on. I suspect there is some flare on the lens surfaces and some scatter. There might also be some ghosting. The ghosting can be because of the brightness of the object reflecting off the anti-reflection coatings an a lens not designed to prevent ghosting.


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Photon_Wrangler
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Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #3427884 - 11/03/09 05:12 PM

I am controlling from a laptop with Gphoto2 installed.

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johnnyha
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 11/12/06
Posts: 1139
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427899 - 11/03/09 05:23 PM

Does the camera have mirror lock? And did you try holding a piece of cardboard or something in front of the objective lens when you hit the shutter (so the frame is dark), then waiting two or three seconds to pull the cardboard away for the rest of the exposure?

--------------------
Johnny

Spicewood, TX

Sherman Oaks, CA



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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 8334
Loc: Bremerton Washington
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427901 - 11/03/09 05:24 PM

Quote:

Here is the shortest exposure I have taken. I am not sure how long it was. It was probably exposed for 1 or 2 seconds. I am beginning to wonder if the tripod I am using is vibrating when I take an exposure. The rig I currently am using with this telescope is not the most stable. I wish there was some way to "fake" a star. Hopefully, I can piggyback the whole thing on my main lxd75 mount. Could bad collimation cause this problem? I used a laser to make sure the focuser was centered with the lens.

Here is the image:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/IMG_2912.jpg

And here is an image of my lxd75 just for showing off. I intend to put a 10 inch Newtonian on it that is currently in my basement.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/telescopeshowoff.jpg




Yo Photon.....Let me lend a hand.

I use the same camera for my imaging. You need a remote cable for shutter control. Any touching the camera to press the shutter button *shakes* the camera...plus a simple camera type tripod will not do either.

I~2 second exposure images unguided might yield no trails of the brightest objects...but any more and you WILL have trails guaranteed. Field rotation is only an issue with a guide camera being used and that's if it is off axis to the imaging camera.

Try taking images during the day and check for aberrations then.

Rob

--------------------
www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
A great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group.

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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gnowellsct
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 733
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427906 - 11/03/09 05:28 PM

Quote:


And here is an image of my lxd75 just for showing off. I intend to put a 10 inch Newtonian on it that is currently in my basement.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/telescopeshowoff.jpg




This is probably what's called shutter shudder. It can be generated by pushing the button and it can even be generated by a timed picture where only the motion of the shutter inside the camera generates enough vibration to disturb the OTA and thus the picture.

I must say I am astounded at the idea of putting a ten inch OTA on an LXD 75. I'm not even sure it's advisable "just to see how it works." The LXD 75 is made out of some kind of material that cracks very, very easily.

Speaking for myself I just bought a ten inch f/6 mirror and intend to mount it on an AP900 (QMD era) and I have been carefully sounding folks out as to whether that would be stable. Even a ten inch f/4.5 Newtonian strikes me as total overload on an LXD75. I would even balk at a 9.25.

That's just the way I see it. The mount is as important, and really more important, than the optics. For an LXD 75 I'd want a 6" SCT or a four inch refractor.

In addition to the weight stresses of the ten inch on the upper saddle I will also caution you that a ten inch OTA will have a large sail area. This is doubled in some angles, because wind can hit the full length of the external OTA and some additional wind can go down the inside of the tube. So you can have two surface areas pushing in the same direction.

The LXD 75 is a very light weight mount that emphasizes portability. The whole combo could go over and you will fracture the LXD 75 head in addition to whatever happens to the optics. I saw an LXD 75 crack open after a fall on soft grass.

That's my 2c, I hope it works out for you, but the idea seems a bit "too much" for me.

Greg N

--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."

featuring selected astrojunk:

bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff


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gnowellsct
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 733
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help... new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3427955 - 11/03/09 05:59 PM

Quote:

Hello, this is my first post on these forums. I was hoping someone could help me identify the cause of this optic aberration I am seeing when attempting astrophotography. All the images have been taken with a canon 350d dslr. In these images the camera and telescope are both mounted on a static tripod. If someone could view the images (I will post them at the bottom of my post) and, tell me if you recognize the problem.






I see a lot of different theories that haven't been properly defined.

1. Is the mount polar aligned? If not, it is tracking error.

2. Is the tracking engaged? If not, it is tracking error.

3. Is the mount NOT polar aligned--a whole LOT of not polar aligned? The error could be field rotation. Field rotation is limited to 1. alt-az mounts 2. VERY POORLY aligned German equatorials and 3. pretty well aligned german equatorials over long exposure periods. It is not to be confused with sidereal motion correction. You can have an alt-az mount tracking a long-length galaxy dead center and it will rotate inside the field of view, staying centered. That's field rotation. That's why fork owners get equatorial wedges and some Newt owners opt for equatorial platforms, or equatorial mounts.

4. Another possibility is periodic error, but this typically does not "arc". On a well polar aligned scope it will make a linear back and forth movement.

I think that several errors are present. I think there is some shutter shudder going on in the first picture. The long arcs on the longer exposure indicates that the mount is either grossly not polar aligned or:

5. There is a large amount of backlash in the mount. This would be unsurprising. You get everything set up and centered but don't approach from the correct angle. You snap the picture but the mount doesn't begin to track for thirty seconds or so till the worm catches up with the worm gear on the mount head. This backlash can be quite large on (a) older American mounts from the 1960s (for example) and (b) inexpensive Chinese mounts.

One test of large backlash is to use the paddle to move the mount in one direction, so that a star moves from one side to the other. After traveling abruptly reverse direction. On one side, and sometimes two, depending on what's going on, there could be a delay before the worm catches up and starts moving the mount in the opposite direction. That's your backlash and though it might seem not a problem when you reverse at paddle speeds, it can be quite a delay when you've got the mount tracking at sidereal.

Which of these things it is I can't say, but Photon Wrangler will want to confirm polar alignment, confirm how the backlash is working and oh yes:

6. confirm that the clutches are engaged so that the mount is in fact tracking!

These are basic issues. There are a few others

7. confirm mount is set for N hemisphere (often times they aren't).

8. confirm power supply

9. confirm power is turned on and all wires are reliably delivering power to motors

10. Confirm dec wire is going to Dec motor! And RA wire to Right Ascension motor. A frequent set up error. If the wires are reversed the mount isn't tracking.

11. Make sure mount is set for sidereal and not lunar. Sometimes we do moon stuff and forget to set it back. The moon is going more slowly or "backwards" relative to the rest of the stars so if you're tracking at lunar rate you will get streaks as if the drive were turned off, but not as bad.

hope that helps and good luck!

Greg N

--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."

featuring selected astrojunk:

bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff


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Photon_Wrangler
member


Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #3427956 - 11/03/09 06:00 PM

I will try the cardboard trick maybe that will remedy the problem. I am not using the refractor on my mount yet. I do not have a piggyback to mount it with yet.

Well I thought meade shipped a 10 inch with a lxd75. It does not make sense that they would sell a scope and mount that would break because the scope is too heavy. Check it out!

http://www.adorama.com/MDLXD75SN10U.html?sid=1257289107820282

Regardless, it seems we have drifted off topic.

Edited by Photon_Wrangler (11/03/09 06:02 PM)


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Photon_Wrangler
member


Reged: 09/04/09
Posts: 13
Re: Optical aberration in homemade refractor. Help new [Re: Photon_Wrangler]
      #3428011 - 11/03/09 06:33 PM

Here is an image I took during the day. Tell me if you see any aberrations. Also, figured out how to enable mirror lockup.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/joerules22/?action=view&current=IMG_2949.jpg


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