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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
Perhaps a class action like the ones in the 80s against monitor manufacturers for advertising "15-inch diagonal" on monitors which were actually only 14.58-inched diagonally?
The audacity! Errors of 0.1mm and 0.08mm, respectively. 
Soliciting business, Jim?
Okie dokie, I've testified a few times in a court room. I can do pain and suffering very well. 
Quote:
But before you return the mis-represented 5.1mm XO, perhaps we could borrow it, too, for testing. 
Regards,
Jim
You can take your eyes off my EPs now. I'm more than just a pretty face with a big EP collection.
-------------------- SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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What's a "Newtonian" or "SCT"???
There are other scopes than refractors???
Man, you learn something new every day. 
Now on a more serious note, if we were looking at characteristics like edge of field performance, I would agree with you that telescope design would be an important factor. Here, however, we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.
I don't think that there's any reason to believe that an eyepiece that is superior on-axis at the described task in a refractor would not also be superior in a Newtonian or SCT. Thoughts?
The advantage of using a premium modest aperture refractor is shorter cool-down, less collimation concern, no central obstruction and/or spider vane occultation factors, etc.
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.
Rayleigh Limit tells us that a 140mm scope has a diffraction limit of 0.98 arcsec. However that is for light at 550nm, and in scotopic vision the eye is more stimulated by light in the range nearer to 510nm. So your scope has a Rayleigh Limit closer to 0.9 arcseconds.
There are a number of other conditions that are generally present that make the stars larger or smaller and therefore affect the resolution of the scope, particularly magnitude and color of stars. It is therefore reasonable to assume, IF you want to see stars at the limit that your scope is capable of splitting, you need stars closer to 1 arcsecond.
Unfortunately, the targets you need will be larger than the diffraction limit ,since you are not using magnification high enough to SEE stars at the limit. Therefore, whether you see stars split or not will be entirely controlled by magnification and acuity.
The problem here lies in the fact that the eyepiece range, 4mm and 5mm, in that scope, is not powerful enough to achieve magnifications that would be necessary to see stars resolved that this scope is capable of resolving. So, due to the lower powers in use, you have to step back from the resolution limit to see stars separated.
To see a 1 arcsec star resolved, completely separated, in a 140mm scope, you might need something on the order of 300x-400x. Well, you have 200x to 250x. You might see 1.5" stars resolved. But now you are controled by magnification. You might see it at 250x, you might not at 200x. That's not resolution, that's simply an application of enough power, or not enough power.
That leaves you with two main problems, testing below the resolution limit and testing widely varying powers. Both are not tests of resolution.
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equal magnitude pair is exactly equal in performace to a 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" similar pair cleanly separated. If that 5mm eyepiece at 200x can see a 1.2" pair, then it has actually exceeded the performance of the 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can only see 1.0".
If you want to test resolution of different eyepieces of varying magnifications, then you must eliminate magnification as a variable. The only way to do that is, either use different focal length scopes (not recommended) or use targets that vary inversely with the power.
Perhaps you might consider a very rigid selection of different targets for each of the magnification sets. Any notion that magnification plays no role in the outcome is ill-conceived.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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HandyAndy
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/11/08
Posts: 652
Loc: West Midlands and around
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Hi,
How about adding a 4mm Clave' as the only recent example of a real Plossl.
BillP rated a 6mm as third in an addendum to his 6mm shoot out.
Cheers. Andrew.
-------------------- Monarch 8x42, Zeiss 10x50 WA
10mm F2, Pentax 60mm F5
City: 7" MN78: MK4#2, 10" F6.3: MK4#1, 16" F5 ParaCorr
Country: 8" VISAC: (GP2)
Car: 6" F5 MPCC: SP, 5" 127mm F7.5 (GP2)
TV 55mm, Paragon 40mm, UO Pretoria 28mm
B&L 32 Pl, Clave's 25, 8, 6, 2x
Hyperions 5, 8, 13, 17, 24, 31
Nagler1 9mm, Meade 14mm 4000 UWA
Antares 1.6x, 0.7x, 0.5x
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hfjacinto
Almost got me
   
Reged: 01/12/09
Posts: 2096
Loc: Union,NJ
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Jim,
As I have 2 very different scopes, I can tell you that eyepieces perform very differently in different scopes. My Hyperions are excellent in the 9.25 CAT, but are very good to good on the SN6. The Zhummels are 90% as good as a Radian on the SN6, but I had a hard time telling the 2 eyepieces apart on the 9.25. The Nagler is excellent on the SN6 but only as good as a Hyperion on the 9.25
Just my 2 cents.
-------------------- C9.25 ASGT 9*50 MM Finder,FT Focuser & 2" Diagonal
Meade LXD 75 6 Inch SNT w 9*50 MM Finder
5,6,9,14.5 MM Zhummel Planetary EPs
13,17,21,24,31,36 MM Baader Hyperion
6.7,8.8 MM Meade UWA & 11 MM Nagler T6
Planetary, OIII and Narrowband Filters
Thousand Oaks Dew Control w Kendrick Heaters
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nyc_nurse
sage
Reged: 07/29/09
Posts: 254
Loc: nyc
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Quote:
Any notion that magnification plays no role in the outcome is ill-conceived.
I've always appreciated your analysis EdZ. When evaluating EP's how does LP affect the test? I've always wondered if there is a cut off in LVM that makes certain comparisons of either EP's or other optical systems a bit more specious. For instance in heavily LP New York Metro area I've seen less variations in EP's than what is easily visible differences once limiting mag hits >6.0
Jim - besides being a sweet spot for many scopes did you choose the EP focal range to best match your local atm conditions?
-------------------- Sam P.
www.agirlandaguy.blogspot.com
Pentax 7X50
TV-102 APO w/ (Starbeam - on backorder )
Ash Gibraltar w/ SkyTour DSC
NZ3-6, N9T6, N13T6
TV 20 Plossl
Pan 24, 35
Pentax XW10, XW14
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PJ Anway
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 1142
Loc: Michigan's U.P.
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Quote:
I'm open to other suggestions as well. Let 'em rip!
Jim,
What would you think of adding a Tele Vue 3-6mm zoom set to 4 or 5mm?
-------------------- PJ
_________________
Lookum Observatory
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Nagler Zoom. Great idea. I like it!
- Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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"Jim - besides being a sweet spot for many scopes did you choose the EP focal range to best match your local atm conditions?"
I wish I could claim to be that savvy, but alas no. Much more mundane: Last year we used 4-inchers to compare 7mm and 8mm eyepieces (TV-102s, in fact) working between 110x and 127x. This year I wanted to add a little aperture, to increase resolving power, and also add a little more magnification to take advantage of the extra aperture. Besides last year's infamous World Cup covering 7mm and 8mm eyepieces, BillP's famous 6mm Planetary Shootout exhaustively covered the 6mm focal length. 4mm to 5mm seems to be the "leftover" range that hasn't yet gotten attention in a mega-comparo.
Our winter skies are fairly unpredictable. Dan and I set up for a dry run two nights before last year's comparison, and seeing was so bad that a 6" refractor could not resolve more than Trapezium A through D. We were almost ready to re-think the comparo, but decided to roll the dice and were rewarded with decent, though not perfect, skies and were rewarded by having several eyepieces resolve 6 Trapezum stars in 4-inchers.
I'll do a new post in this forum once the line-up of eyepieces and targets have been fixed, and will give details regarding our intended methodology this time around as well as repeating what we mean by "resolution(TM)" to keep the more serious folks happy (you know who you are ).
In the meantime, please keep the eyepiece ideas coming. If you have double star target ideas, please share them on the thread I've posted in the Double Star forum.
Thanks a bunch for the suggestions thus far,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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Alvin Huey
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/18/05
Posts: 1831
Loc: NorCal
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Quote:
What's a "Newtonian" or "SCT"???
There are other scopes than refractors???
Man, you learn something new every day. 
Now on a more serious note, if we were looking at characteristics like edge of field performance, I would agree with you that telescope design would be an important factor. Here, however, we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.
I don't think that there's any reason to believe that an eyepiece that is superior on-axis at the described task in a refractor would not also be superior in a Newtonian or SCT. Thoughts?
The advantage of using a premium modest aperture refractor is shorter cool-down, less collimation concern, no central obstruction and/or spider vane occultation factors, etc.
Regards,
Jim
Hi Jim,
How about some aperture? Perhaps Dan's 20" Obsession. I can tell you that the difference between eyepieces is magnified with aperture. I noticed that too when I was doing a shootout with a friend's 4" Tak and my 22". The difference between the UO Ortho and TMB SMC was not really noticeable with the 4", but very noticeable with my 22". Then the difference between the Radian and the TMB SMC was astounding that even a novice easily saw the difference. I remember reading a report by someone on CN saying that aperture will increase the difference between eyepieces...also performs differently. When we did it, we looked at Jupiter, M-13 and something else that I don't remember.
And the 20" Obsession will beat the snot out of the little 5.5" refractor any day. I know... I used to own a TEC-140 and TOA-130S, my 22" beats both of them pretty much every time. And yes, they were equilibrated and collimated. Sorry, I had to say that. I didn't sell them because of that, but originally picked them up for imaging, which I decided not to pursue and stay on the visual side.
-------------------- Clear Skies,
Alvin #26
22" f/4.0 reflector and 30" f/4.3 StarMaster
FaintFuzzies | TAC | TAC-Sac
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Junn Chavez
member
Reged: 02/24/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Sands of Arabia
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It would be nice to know how my 4mm CZJ 0.965 Ortho compares with the other 4mm eyepieces on the list.
Clear skies
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
That leaves you with two main problems, testing below the resolution limit and testing widely varying powers. Both are not tests of resolution.
Let me rephrase that. Testing below the resolution limit and at the same time testing widely varying powers can indeed be considered a test of resolution, BUT, it is primarily influenced by magnification, almost to the point of (and in some cases entirely) masking the intended results. If you want your results to come out on a level playing field, you must eliminate the variable of magnification.
Quote:
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equal magnitude pair is exactly equal in performace to a 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" similar pair cleanly separated. If that 5mm eyepiece at 200x can see a 1.2" pair, then it has actually exceeded the performance of the 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can only see 1.0".
What the heck is he saying here?
This is really very simple. In order to equalize (eliminate the influence of) magnification, rather than compare direct observation of resolved pair, compare the "apparent resolution " of the resolved pairs.
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equals 200 x 1.25 = 250 arcseconds apparent
A 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" equals 250 x 1.0 = 250 arcseconds apparent
these are equal in performance. However if
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.20", then it equals 200 x 1.2 = 240 arcseconds apparent
it has achieved a better mark
Just to highlight the implications of NOT taking magnification into consideration. Assume both the 4mm and 5mm eyepieces resolve the same 1.25" pair of stars. But also let's assume it looks to you like the 4mm did just a tiny bit better job. Well, how do they really stack up?
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equals 200 x 1.25 = 250 arcseconds apparent
A 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.25" equals 250 x 1.25 = 312 arcseconds apparent
The 4mm eyepiece, due to magnification, had such a huge advantage that it made the object 25% larger, it didn't really resolve any better, in fact, it didn't resolve as well. Regardless what it looked like to you, with disregard for magnification, this 4mm eyepiece was beat out to the finish line by a full lap of the track. The 5mm eyepiece left the 4mm ep so far back in the pack that the 4mm will be relegated to the JV team for the next event.
I hope those examples drive home the point.
Quote:
If you want to test resolution of different eyepieces of varying magnifications, then you must eliminate magnification as a variable. The only way to do that is, either use different focal length scopes (not recommended) or use targets that vary inversely with the power.
Keep in mind when observing double stars, you can't use brighter stars as targets for one eyepiece and dimmer targets for the other eyepiece. Magnitude of stars changes the size of the central visible disk with brightest stars creating a disadvantaged larger visable disk. So you need to keep the magnitudes of the selections fairly consistent so as to eliminate advantage. Likewise, you can't use blue stars as targets for one eyepiece and orange/red stars as targets for the other eyepiece. The blue stars would provide such a large advantage as to completely skew the results.
So why do I stress all these issues which must be taken into consideration. Long after the forum hubbub is faded into the sunset, there will be this review posted that will be available to readers year after year. Several years down the road, it would be good if someone (knowledgable enough) could pick up the review and read it and not have to say, Geez look at all the stuff they didn't take into consideration, what a bunch of hooeey. Because you know, the reader who doesn't have a clue isn't going to be reading it looking for those same clues.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Luigi
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4947
Loc: MA
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Edz says, >>> But probably most important is this, you are using only half the power needed to see the diffraction limit.<<<
So, if the idea is to test EPs of a given focal length and not overall telescope performance, I would think using a scope that produces smaller diffraction limited stars in its focal plane would enable you to better discern the resolution performance of the EP than would using a scope where the aberrations and diffraction limit of the OTA produce a large blob and swamp any affect of the EP, no?
The angular size of the Airy patern is inversely proportional to the aperture and proportional to the focal length, so the linear size so is fixed for a given f/#. So, for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution. The doubles don't have to be difficult overall, they just need to be difficult for the EP.
-------------------- 17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins
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Covey32
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 921
Loc: Georgia
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Quote:
Other suggestions:
Siebert Star Splitter Zhumell Z-Series
The former is often touted as being "just as good" or "better" than some well respected eypeieces like the UO HDs. It would be interesting to see how it performs head to head. The latter is often suggested with the TMB Planetary as a best bang for your buck planetary eyepiece, but few detailed comparisons with other eyepieces exist.
Great idea to toss in a Siebert SS, it seems like nobody ever does a side by side with one of these. It would be interesting to see how they stack up. I've used them for years and found them to be excellent.
-------------------- Hank
12.5" Mag1 Portaball
Orion 120mm F5 Refractor
Skywatcher 120ED F7.5 Refractor
1982 Celestron C8 Orange tube
Celestron ED80 Refractor with Lunt 50mm HA
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
So, if the idea is to test EPs of a given focal length and not overall telescope performance, I would think using a scope that produces smaller diffraction limited stars in its focal plane would enable you to better discern the resolution performance of the EP
Yes, which is exactly why, in the post immediately previous to yours, I stated "Let me rephrase that."
Quote:
The angular size of the Airy patern is inversely proportional to the aperture and proportional to the focal length, so the linear size so is fixed for a given f/#. So, for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution.
No. You are correct about angular size, but we are not concerned about linear size at all. In fact, a faster f# (given two scopes of equal aperture) will not change the angular size of the Airy disk, since angular size is dependant only on aperture, not f#. F# will change the magnification, which is related to my discussion. Faster f#, since it would lower the magnification, in fact would make the apparent size of the object in the eyepiece smaller with the result being that it would be harder (not easier) to discern eyepiece performance wrt resolution.
The problem here lies in choosing stars that are too small (close) to actually see any critical detail at the resultant magnifications, while at the same time it is necessary to choose stars that must be at the borderline to show greater critical detail in one eyepiece versus the other. And while satisfying those criteria, refrain from creating any advantage in one observation over the other, ie. widely varient apparent size.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
How about some aperture? Perhaps Dan's 20" Obsession.
The problem with the SCTs and relectors, that would seriously trump a TEC140, is that the usual f/ls will result in magnifications approaching 500x. That would be fine if viewing conditions support that. How often is a 5mm ortho/supermono used with reflectors and SCTs? I don't believe I've ever attempted using a 5mm Supermono in my 7" Mak. Perhaps once out of curiosity.
-------------------- SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
Edited by SteveC (11/03/09 09:40 AM)
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Well, I was gonna reserve the preaching for the next post, but I think we're coming dangerously close to getting wrapped around the axle here; too buried in semantics, technicalities and minutiae.
Last year, the World Cup was originally pitched as the "First Annual Eyepiece Resolution World Cup". Use of the term "Resolution" in connection with the test format, criteria, eyepiece and target selection, generated what seemed like seven hundred posts agonizing over whether our results would really be measuring contrast rather than resolution, or rather sharpness instead of contrast or resolution, or perhaps a combination of sharpness and contrast with a little transmission thrown in rather than resolution, or...You get the idea.
Deep breath. Let's stop wringing our hands. Smile. Be happy.
Okay. In deference to such concerns, last year we re-titled the exercise "Eyepiece resolution(TM) World Cup" and explained:
"(B) Semantics.
We originally titled this evaluation "The Eyepiece Resolution World Cup." Use of the term "resolution" drew considerable criticism. Several knowledgeable observers posited that seeing Trapezium E and F in theory would not really be a test for resolution. A 4-inch scope ought to be able to resolve targets with such wide separations as the A-E and C-F separations no matter what 7mm to 8mm eyepiece is used. It was suggested that we supplement the field testing with daytime testing using white-on-black USAF resolution targets or with currency. We discussed this, but declined to pursue such testing for reasons discussed below.
Rather than resolution it was also variously suggested that our evaluation might technically instead be showing contrast, sharpness, or some other characteristic that might or might not be related to resolution. My own feeling is that testing eyepieces for isolated characteristics like sharpness, contrast and resolution in a laboratory is fine if you want to know what those things look like in isolation, in a laboratory. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) few of us spend much observing time in a laboratory looking at laboratory type targets. In the field at night with dynamic conditions, luminous targets, inconsistent backgrounds, inconsistent luminosities, etc., I find it very difficult to ascertain whether I’m able to pick out a detail in one eyepiece but not in another because (a) my eyepiece has superior resolution, or (b) my eyepiece has superior sharpness, or (c) my eyepiece has superior contrast, or (d) a combination of one or more of these characteristics, or perhaps due to some other factors entirely.
Rather than try to attempt what Dan and I didn’t feel we were competent to or patient enough to complete, we instead made a decision to revise the title of the article and substitute "resolution™" for "Resolution". Rather than trying to determine which characteristic in a strict, technical sense was responsible for showing us more, we instead chose to go with the plain English meaning of "resolution" rather than the technical and scientific meaning. Ironically certain dictionary definitions of "resolution" resort to other terms like sharpness. In any case, for purposes of this report "resolution™" shall simply mean "the act or process of separating the Trapezium into constituent parts." That is rather than a characteristic of the eyepiece, the term describes the action of using the eyepiece to accomplish the stated task. We’ll say what we were able to see using each eyepiece on the chosen target. We’ll leave it up to you, the reader, to speculate on why we were able to see more using some eyepieces than others..."
To further elaborate, let's dig a little into the dichotomy of theory on one hand and practice on the other. In "theory" a 4-inch scope operating at 110x to 127x should have *no* trouble at all pulling in Tarpezium A-F provided that seeing and transparency cooperate. In "practice", one can read countless posts of in the Double Stars forum and elsewhere on CN where verteran and beginning observers alike struggle to pull in Trapezium F in 4- to 6-inch scopes. In the dry run of our own testing last year, we used a 6" refractor to test out a few of the eyepieces and were dismayed that the 6-incher pulled in only A-D under sloppy seeing conditions. Fortunately the conditions were much better two days later when we conducted the comparisons, but I think this illustrates what I mean by theory vs. practice.
Let's also look at the "World Cup" connection. There are probably few sporting events on the planet that compare to the World Cup in terms of consternation about fairness of match-ups, allegations of fraud and favoritism among the organizers, and raw emotion. Nationalism and sports fanaticism combine. In World Cup play, it doesn't matter that on game day it rains and the pitch is a soggy tragedy, or that France's star Zidane is allergic to mustard pollen and there's a field of mustard adjacent to the football facility. The game goes on and rarely does the worse team better the superior team, despite all of the things that "could have been better."
Next point. This is supposed to as much about fun as it is about gear. If you want clinical scientific reports, worried to dog-earedness and cross-referenced to to an encyclopedic bibliography, write them. The Eyepiece Hooligan and his mates can't and more importantly don't want to author such reports. There's little joy in them, and as a result the relevance to the majority of of observers is suspect.
Our targets need to be moderately challenging for the atmospheric variability, aperture and magnifications used. In the field, unlike in the basement, the number of variables that materially impact what is seen in the eyepiece is staggering. In practice, I've found that tasks which in theory ought to be accomplished comparably and handily by a given scope using a given magnification range, aren't, and that no matter how many times you try one lower magnification eyepiece consistently outperforms another higher magnification eyepiece, on-axis, on targets such as those being discussed for the World Cup. I don't know why. I could speculate, but don't feel the need to do so. I don't really care "why". I'm only after the "what" as in "what did eyepiece x show that eyepiece y could not". I'll leave the "why" to the more genteel and scholarly among us. Oh, and I promise I won't beat you up in the hall and take your milk money. I grew out of that long ago. Kidding of course. I had my milk money taken quite a few times actually.
So with that in mind, we're sticking with a mix of 4mm and 5mm eyepieces. We're looking for moderately challenging double stars (3 of 'em) for the aperture and magnification range described. We're hoping for decent seeing. We understand that there are flaws in the methods, flaws in the theory, and flaws in the socio-economic and cultural systems that sustain folks such as ourselves when there are species disappearing, children starving and ice caps melting. Nonetheless we ernestly hope that you enjoy our second little bit of "fluff" when we publish it.
Oh and as for BIG DOBs, I've honestly never looked through a Dob larger than about 12" that threw up anything but slightly soft, mushy, unsatisfying-compared-to-a-regractor stellar views. Probably a combination of miscollimation and lack of adequate cooling, but that's my experience. I know that sharp stellar views in Dobs exist. If the little'uns can do it, there's no reason the big'uns can't, but that's my experience and resulting bias. Also I don't think I'm alone. For example, in Sissy Haas' double star field guide "Double Stars for Small Telescopes: More Than 2,100 Stellar Gems for Backyard Observers," Sissy uses a refractor for most of her observations. Other observers she references use scopes up to about 12" of various designs. For some reason, however, very few of the reported observations were made using a big Dob. Surely these "pros" could afford whatever scope they wanted for their double star work. In fact an 18" to 20" premium Dob is no more (and likely less) expensive than a premium 5" to 6" refractor on a premium GEM.
Perhaps I am being a bit provincial, but I think there's actually value in NOT resorting to larger aperture reflectors for this particular comparo. Surely I'll be consumed by a pillar of fire or something for saying so, but hopefully it won't be until after we've finished the testing.
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
Edited by jrbarnett (11/03/09 11:35 AM)
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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Ed,
What about the Sparrow limit as criteria for limiting resoultion... supposed to be nearer the mark 'as observed'?
anyone, any thoughts?
--------------------
-
CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
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Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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I think you've got it!
- Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Ed,
What about the Sparrow limit as criteria for limiting resoultion... supposed to be nearer the mark 'as observed'?
anyone, any thoughts?
Sparrow Limit represents a limit of detectability of overlapped disks, nowhere near a limit of seeing two disks separated.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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