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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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yonkrz
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/16/06
Posts: 572
Loc: SW Minnesota
GEM VS FORK SCT new
      #3428242 - 11/03/09 09:12 PM

I realize that a gem mount and an sct is made more for imaging than a fork mount sct,are there any advantages of a gem sct over a fork sct for just visual observing?

--------------------
CPC 925
10" Z dob,Baltic Birch base




------------------------
Jeff


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letimotif
No Complaints
*****

Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 2019
Loc: Far Flung Isles of Langerhans
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT [Re: yonkrz]
      #3428274 - 11/03/09 09:33 PM

IMHO: nope.

OK, a GEM gives you the chance to break your equipment down and make it more manageable. For example, a CPC 1100 OTA/fork combo is 68 lbs. A CGEM mounted C11 gives you at least three, and more likely five, components, the heaviest of which is about 35 lbs.

So, if you can't manage the weight of a CPC OTA/fork you can still enjoy a larger OTA without busting up your back.

Other than that, I think my original statement holds true.

--------------------
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for?


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Luigi
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4947
Loc: MA
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: letimotif]
      #3428747 - 11/04/09 07:28 AM

You tend to get a bit more exercise observing with a GEM than you would with fork. Going up and down the ladder when observing with a large Dob provides even better exercise, except for when you're laid up from having fallen off it.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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Takman
sage


Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 200
Loc: Maple, ON - Canada
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Luigi]
      #3428846 - 11/04/09 09:15 AM

I orginally had fork mounted gear before switching to GEM systems. The drawbacks for a fork system is that large fork mounted telescope will weight a significant amount. A GEM system is more modular but requires more setup time. The main advantage for me is that I can use differing telescopes on the same mount.

--------------------
Takahashi TOA-130F
Celestron C-11/C-8 with FASTAR
William Optics Zenithstar 66 SD/ED Petzval
Astro-Physics Mach1 GTO/Celestron AS-GT
TeleVue Naglers 26mm, 13mm, 7mm and 3.5mm


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mclewis1
Thread Killer
*****

Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Takman]
      #3428895 - 11/04/09 09:56 AM

Pros for the GEM
Flexibility - the ability to swap otas for future upgrades, and the ability to handle multiple scopes simultaneously (much better than piggyback style on the fork). These IMHO are the biggest benefits. A GEM is basically an investment that doesn't have the restrictions (primary scope tightly coupled to the mount) of a fork mounted scope.
No interference from the base of the forks when viewing/imaging at the zenith

Pros for the Fork
Better eyepiece orientation
Ability to track through the meridian ... no meridian flip
More compact package ... takes up less room in a dome (considering a POD?)
No interference from the tripod legs when slewing to opposite sides of the sky

--------------------
Mark

C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should


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RAKing
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 2092
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: mclewis1]
      #3428924 - 11/04/09 10:16 AM

Here's something that has not been mentioned, but is the reason I will not be using a fork-mounted SCT in the future: If something goes wrong with the electronics in the fork mount, you must send the whole system back for repair.

This happened to me with my new CPC1100. I had to send the whole thing back to the factory for repair and had to wait six weeks to get it back. (I also had to pay for the shipping.)

Using a GEM-mounted scope is better for me.

Ron

--------------------
Time spent looking at the stars is added to your life.

Tak FS-128, C925-CF, C6SE, other stray cats and refractors.
A-P Mach1 GTO
Zeiss orthos to Ethos - and some stuff in between.


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Erik Bakker
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/10/06
Posts: 534
Loc: Haren, The Netherlands, Europe
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: yonkrz]
      #3429205 - 11/04/09 01:13 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Love my Questar 7 on it's forkmount. Wouldn't want to have it any other way. Great comfort, stability and portability (OTA and forkmount are seperate like a Q 3 1/2 Duplex).

Clear skies,

Erik

--------------------
Visual astronomer, main instruments:

Fully mounted Questar 7 P-BB

Celestron C 102F f/8.8 fluorite
Vixen FL 70S f/8 fluorite
Celestron C 55F f/8 fluorite

Sets of Zeiss, TeleVue and Brandon eyepieces

Zeiss 7x50 Marine B/GA

Zeiss TM german equatorial
Gitzo 224 with Manfrotto 501 fluid head
Unitron alt-az mount



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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Frederick Maryland
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #3429233 - 11/04/09 01:29 PM

Being in my mid 60's (with 45-50 years into this hobby) and currently own 2 Fork mounted SCTS along with 2 Gem mounted refractors.

I find myself avoiding the Gem mounts (especially the LXD55 Goto Gem) ...its painful to align correctly since I have to get down on the ground etc. which is not that hard but getting back up sure can become an adventure...20 heck even 10 years ago I never even gave it a thought. The fork mounted scts are just easier for me to set up and use comfortably...

I admit that my CPC1100 would never have been purchased if I had to lug it outside and set it up (its pier mounted).. its heavy ! I can handle it now pretty easily BUT I have to question if I could do it in another few years when I'm 70...

Bob G.

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter

39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W

The sky over my head....



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sang33ta
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 07/08/08
Posts: 767
Loc: UK
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3429912 - 11/04/09 09:03 PM

GEM just point it north and do a star align they are no harder to setup than a fork these days.

--------------------
Hioptic 152mm f12.5 Maksutov, CG5-AGT, Meade Super Plossl Set, Casio QV-2900UX


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chuckscap
sage


Reged: 07/18/09
Posts: 229
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO USA
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: sang33ta]
      #3429928 - 11/04/09 09:12 PM

I loved my NexStar 11 alt/az fork mounted SCT for visual observing. Yes the OTA fork/base is heavier than any single component of a CGE, but to me the ease of setup, and even more importantly not having to get into contorted positions to observe, rotate the diagonal etc is much better. As far as having to send the whole thing back, if you have a goto mount and don't star hop and your mount goes south you are out of business. The only difference is your shipping will be less and you don't have to ship your fragile OTA (which can be important). I'd love for Celestron to make a fork mounted CPC 1400 EdgeHD with a fast release OTA mount on the forks. That way you'd have 3 pieces to set up, would just have to send either the hand controller or the fork/base back if the electronics went south and you'd still have nice viewing positions and the easy aignment of an alt/az fork mount.

Regards,

Chuck


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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1304
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: chuckscap]
      #3430092 - 11/04/09 10:41 PM

I'm rabidly in the fork camp. I used to own a fork mounted C8 near 25 years ago, and have much more recently played around with other folks' GEM mounted bretheren. What a pain! If an SCT were in the cards for me and no fork was available, I'd get just the OTA and *make* my own fork; the format is that desirable. (And naturally, it would incorporate a quick-release system!)

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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JimK
sage
*****

Reged: 09/18/05
Posts: 231
Loc: Albuquerque, NM USA
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: yonkrz]
      #3430310 - 11/05/09 12:54 AM

I have been finding that a fork-mounted SCT is hard to use when looking at objects between the zenith and Polaris, especially 20-30 degrees north of the zenith and +/-20 degrees of the zenith. For example, right now, Lacerta and Cepheus are difficult objects to view (for me, at least) in the early evening.

A GEM does not have this issue.


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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Frederick Maryland
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: JimK]
      #3430606 - 11/05/09 09:04 AM

Quote:

I have been finding that a fork-mounted SCT is hard to use when looking at objects between the zenith and Polaris, especially 20-30 degrees north of the zenith and +/-20 degrees of the zenith. For example, right now, Lacerta and Cepheus are difficult objects to view (for me, at least) in the early evening.

A GEM does not have this issue.




I can not understand the reason for this...what is giving you a problem...?????

Bob G.

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter

39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W

The sky over my head....



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rmollise
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 4598
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3430690 - 11/05/09 09:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have been finding that a fork-mounted SCT is hard to use when looking at objects between the zenith and Polaris, especially 20-30 degrees north of the zenith and +/-20 degrees of the zenith. For example, right now, Lacerta and Cepheus are difficult objects to view (for me, at least) in the early evening.

A GEM does not have this issue.




I can not understand the reason for this...what is giving you a problem...?????

Bob G.




If you use a fork in EQ mode, lookin' anywhere near the pole is a great, big pain in the patootie.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!


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Brian L
super member


Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 119
Loc: The garden paradise of Pittsbu...
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3430724 - 11/05/09 10:09 AM

For visual observing, GEMS are not hard to set up at all. In fact, I can set up my G-11 in a few minutes for this. My LX200 takes some time to go through the automatic procedure for leveling, finding north, and getting a GPS fix. You can roughly align a GEM with a polar scope to a degree of accuracy which is more than sufficient for visual observing. The object will not drift perceptibly unless you stare at it for a very long time. The demands of AP require a more time consuming setup.

Fork mounts are good for visual observing, but they have some drawbacks. I don't find the viewing position to be particularly comfortable for objects near the zenith. Also, if you add a third party crayford focuser behind the rear cell, then you have the problem of not being able to slew all the way to the zenith because there is not enough clearance for a focuser and a diagonal, the latter of which may slam into the fork base as you slew in altitude. This doesn't damage the diagonal in my experience, but it causes the dec clutch to slip and throws off the alignment to an extent that requires you to go through the alignment procedure again. A GEM does not have this problem.

For AP, there are more obvious advantages to a GEM. Put a camera and a focal reducer on the rear cell and you are even more limited in your altitude range. If you want to do AP, you need to get a good quality wedge ($500-700) to eliminate field rotation. I don't find it particularly easy to polar align a fork mount on a wedge to a degree of accuracy that is required for long-exposure AP. If you practiced enough you could probably get quite good at it. In general, fork mounted scopes tend to have much higher periodic error than a quality GEM which is designed with the astrophotographer in mind. You can guide it out to some extent.

Fork mounts are heavy, but so are quality GEM's. If you do buy a fork mounted scope, you are more or less stuck with it unless you want to do a deforking (which I have done). If you decide you want to do AP and prefer a GEM for this, you either have to defork your SCT OTA leaving you with a mount that can't be used with any other scope. You might find a buyer occasionally looking for used replacement forks, but the fork mounts alone are not easy to sell used without the OTA (trust me).

That said, there are a lot of things to like about fork mounts. If somebody out there could design a fork mount with a quick release (like the Questar duplex) which would preserve orthogonality between the mount and the optical axis, I think it would be a welcome development.

--------------------
WO FLT-110 f/6.5, TEC optics
Losmandy G-11 Gemini
Meade 10" LX200 GPS/UHTC
Questar 3.5" Standard
Vixen VMC-110L
Canon 450D, unmodified
Assortment of TV Panoptic, TV Radian, Vixen LVW, and WO eyepieces


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5684
Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: rmollise]
      #3430943 - 11/05/09 12:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have been finding that a fork-mounted SCT is hard to use when looking at objects between the zenith and Polaris, especially 20-30 degrees north of the zenith and +/-20 degrees of the zenith. For example, right now, Lacerta and Cepheus are difficult objects to view (for me, at least) in the early evening.

A GEM does not have this issue.




I can not understand the reason for this...what is giving you a problem...?????

Bob G.




If you use a fork in EQ mode, lookin' anywhere near the pole is a great, big pain in the patootie.



That's true, but the upsides are a) there's not that much to look at by the pole, and b) the zenith is a lot easier.
I'm in the wedge-mounted fork camp. (Caveat: I'm a visual only guy - when you start imaging, forks lose their appeal.)
Plus, the fact that you have to send the whole thing in is a drag; but if nothing goes wrong, no problem mon.

--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!


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RonBurgundy
sage


Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #3431248 - 11/05/09 02:37 PM

Fork for visual... No fusses whatsoever with the newer mounts. And you can get a comfy observing chair too!


--------------------
Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II


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JimK
sage
*****

Reged: 09/18/05
Posts: 231
Loc: Albuquerque, NM USA
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3431308 - 11/05/09 03:00 PM

Quote:

I can not understand the reason for this...what is giving you a problem...?????

Bob G.




In a word - geometry.

Polaris is at 35 degrees for me, which requires the fork's wedge to be tilted more downward (than in Maryland).

Objects on meridian and at the zenith (directly overhead) are readily viewable. But for those objects on or near the meridian that are closer and closer to Polaris, the eyepiece moves closer and closer to the wedge (under the fork arm declination pivots) and getting one's head between the base of the wedge and (under) the SCT tube is not always possible. This problem is worse for those in southern Texas and Florida.

Rotating the diagonal helps in some cases, but also increases the difficulty in starhopping because of the unusual field orientation in the eyepiece.

And as I've said before, this situation does not occur with a GEM.


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Brian L
super member


Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 119
Loc: The garden paradise of Pittsbu...
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: JimK]
      #3431362 - 11/05/09 03:32 PM

Jim-

Clearly the solution to your problem is to move northward. Find a cozy place at the north pole and you can get rid of that wedge entirely.

Or, If you're just observing visually, you can just remove the wedge to look at objects at high declination.

Another reason why I deforked my SCT. North pole is just too cold for me. Plus, no starbucks (yet)

--------------------
WO FLT-110 f/6.5, TEC optics
Losmandy G-11 Gemini
Meade 10" LX200 GPS/UHTC
Questar 3.5" Standard
Vixen VMC-110L
Canon 450D, unmodified
Assortment of TV Panoptic, TV Radian, Vixen LVW, and WO eyepieces


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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Frederick Maryland
Re: GEM VS FORK SCT new [Re: Brian L]
      #3431437 - 11/05/09 04:08 PM

Thank you Gentleman... You too Unk ! LOL

As you can tell I do not own, nor have I ever viewed thru a wedge mounted scope. So Dumb Dumb me did not even think of a wedge mounted fork scope...

Bob G.

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter

39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W

The sky over my head....



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