mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Charlie:
Quote:
...but Skywatcher still sells the identical mount with a dual axis controller, so it's not as if the manufacturer stopped making the dual axis drive version. It could be just as easily argued that Orion decided to stop offering the dual axis controller in order to boost sales on the go-to model that were being lost to them because of the EQMOD ASCOM driver.
This is exactly the approach I considered when looking at the Atlas. It seemed to me that the difference in price between the non-go-to and the go-to versions of the Atlas was enough to permit purchase of a really good netbook for running EQMOD and other astronomy software. That provides the best of both worlds, and you get a netbook thrown in for free.
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Just because the OP didn't use the term Gemini doesn't mean that he wasn't intending it to be discussed by default. The vast majority of folks who discuss the G11 by default include Gemini. The fact that you don't is fine ... just go ahead and start another thread.
Manual mounts are a distant minority in terms of interest so we can assume when someone refers to a mount that by default they are also interested in the controller. If someone says "I'm comparing a G11 to a CGE" they are simply far more likely to mean the controllers too.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Just because the OP didn't use the term Gemini doesn't mean that he wasn't intending it to be discussed by default. ... The fact that you don't is fine ... just go ahead and start another thread.
And it also doesn't mean that he DID intend it to be discussed by default. Hence no need to start another thread.
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome."
I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7971
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Quote:
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome."
I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
It happens a lot when you put these two mounts together for a comparo - people love their mounts, and they tend to defend their opinions and choices vigorusly. As long as they can do so without getting out of hand (rude or nasty or personal with each other) I'm okay with it.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
Good question, but I would say "no", it doesn't have to be "like against like".
Comparing a non-gemini G-11 to a CGE, with your reasoning, would result in the G-11 being the hands down winner based on price alone. CGE's electronics would be useless to someone not taking advantage of them. Certainly, these added useless electronics, present a potential time bomb, which if exploded, would result in months of not being able to use the mount.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Since the Losmandy setup is modular, have people attempted to fit it with say an Autostar and encoders? That is can you just get the DSS kit and retrofit your own GOTO system?
I would likely get the Gemini system but man it looks to be about 15 years out of date.
As long as the G11 can be controlled from a computer, the CGE loses its main advantage.
-drl
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3961
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Quote:
I'll note that the OP did include this suggestion... "And any other completely emotional comments would be welcome." I think we've managed to achieve THAT goal!
Very true  ... and I hope that my comments didn't come across as dismissive about your postings so far ... I was more concerned that we'd end up with a long emotional discussion about star hopping and DSCs vs. goto etc.
If that happened I was going to get the popcorn out ... 
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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CounterWeight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 1305
Loc: PDX chronoplast
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Just wanted to comment that Celestron apparently will sell parts for the CGE? I am only a year with my CGE and have several cases with tech support - I always emphasize that I don't want to send in my mount - and can they just sell me the parts.
Recently my CGE started having a prob that makes it sound like a popcorn popper and tracking/goto/alignment is goofed. Took some time but tech support has responded that they will sell me the needed bearings.
Also talking about the circuit boards with the rj connections being very oxidized and poor voltage/amperage from a bad connection and could I buy new boards, so far the response has been 'affirmative'.
Some may have issues with me needing to buy the parts for a mount not a year old and flubbing, but that's another issue, and really I'm ok with it if I can keep from losing the mount for a few months.
I find the CGE mount and electronics pier to be extremely easy to work on, take apart and back together, without micrometers and calipers and etc. Seems a shame they have such a bad rap for after sales support and making replacement parts (un)available. Maybe they have taken notice of loss of market share to Losmandy bcause of this?
That said, I have not as of today actually received any parts, and am still trying to get part numbers - it has taken over a week for some.
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CGE (Frankenmount mod.)
Onyx 80ED, Tak FS-128 #02058, TEC APO160ED #030
CCD: Orion SSPDSCIv2, SSI3, SSAG
diags, ep's, tubes, filters, Binocs
My CN Image Gallery
Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first, and gives the lesson later
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
I would like to hear from those who have owned both the G-11 and the CGE and sold one of them. It would be interesting which one they kept.
Hi Daryl
That's fair enough, but many of us who put a lot of research into the decision G-11 vs. CGE have also applied considerable prior mount experience into the equation. AP aside, which I have no experience with, these two mounts are so evenly matched that it really does come down to esthetics, goto ease, being able to use the mount w/o goto, and being able to repair the mount yourself.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Just wanted to comment that Celestron apparently will sell parts for the CGE?
I don't see why not. I've purchased parts (including motors) for other Celestron mounts over the years at what seemed to be very fair prices.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25206
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Since the Losmandy setup is modular, have people attempted to fit it with say an Autostar and encoders?
It's been done but it isn't easy. You have to remove the existing stepper drives and find a way to mount servo motors and to hook them up to the drive train. Lots of fabrication involved.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 603
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Hi Steve,
I couldn't agree more - and have actual experience in this regard.
I decided to go with the G-11/Gemini over the CGE in the end. Mechanically and function feature comparisons resulted in no clear (knock-out punch) winner.
The deciding factor ended up being the maintainability of the G11/Gemini vs the RMA-only option that saddles the CGE. And I can tell you, if you guys think the turnaround time for a CGE repair is long there in the US - consider what its like here in the UK.
Here's a hint - an RMA'd CGE get shipped back to the US 
Regards,
skybsd
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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You know, there is no way to compare the two mounts without having some personal feelings about them.
Either mount seems to be a good mount. Each seems to have its own good and bad points. The real choice is which mount has the attributes that you are looking for and the least number of bad points.
For me, I decided on the G-11. This was based on its ability to track past the meridian, which I needed for photography. Plus it had the capability of being modified with existing after market parts and the availability of these parts for most everything such as bearings from about any bearing house.
Then I liked the CNC manufactured parts, just a better way to do this in my opinion.
I also liked the very solid tripod, it is like a portable pier compared to a tripod.
But, each person may have different requirements or likes when they look at equipment. This is why there are so many to choose from today.
But one thing about the G-11. It has been around for quite a while and parts are pretty much interchangeable, so you can still work on an old one or a new one. They are easy to work on and do not require special tools. You can disassemble them and clean and lube them in an afternoon. Plus, I am willing to bet that they will still be available for quite a while to come.
If Celestron decides to discontinue the mount, like Meade has done with the LX-200, then I have no idea of where you will find parts for them in the future. This too could be a consideration for most.
Buy what you like, will use and will meet your requirements and you will be happy. But try to find a consensus of opinion and you will drive yourself crazy!
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Ah no your logic is more like rating cars without engines based on which one has the best suspension system when you push it down the road.
With all due respect, Phil, that's not even close to the situation at hand. If you think a GEM without a Go-To system is like a car without an engine, then you simply live in a different astronomy world than I do.
And if you truly believe your analogy is apt, then I'll point out that a very robust market exists for "cars without engines"... those are called bicycles, and lots of folks (me included) enjoy that simpler form of technology for a lot of the same reasons we might eschew mounts that don't work if the Go-To system goes on the fritz, e.g., the desire for simplicity, quiet, etc.
I do goto astronomy. Push to also if you count my WO EZ Touch with Argo or my Dob with Argo. Computerized astronomy is where the industry is for the most part.
If you think that's not accurate, poll a few manufacturers of mounts, not just the little shops and see what is selling dumb mounts or smart mounts (hey if the names work for bombs).
As for pedal power good for you. That means there will be gas around longer for my SUV and Supercharged Mustang (8 MPG).
As for look at the thread there is no CGE without the electronics controller it doesn't work, so the threads compare couldn't take place as a like for like. Non functioning Vs dumb mount wouldn't be much of a review.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
I do goto astronomy. Push to also if you count my WO EZ Touch with Argo or my Dob with Argo. Computerized astronomy is where the industry is for the most part.
I agree. Computerized astronomy is great technology.
In fact, Starmap Pro running on my iPod has revolutionized my ability to find new DSO's -- it's the best star chart I've ever owned, and it also works as a flashlight and a music supply (something my Skalnate Pleso charts never quite managed to do)
And there's EOS_movrec for planetary imaging via my DSLR and laptop, and remote focusing tools for those DSO's at the zenith, too..
And when I finally get around to wiring up my guide scope/camera to my mount so Ph.D. guiding can track DSO's via my netbook, I'll have a very nice computerized setup... and one that can also check my e-mail during daylight hours, too. What's not to like about that?
And all using a "dumb" mount, too. Go figure...
But you're absolutely right: computerized astronomy is where it's at!
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
And all using a "dumb" mount, too. Go figure...
But you're absolutely right: computerized astronomy is where it's at!
There is hope for the world
Enjoy while you can. I doubt there will be many new dumb mounts available in 5 years or so. With Orion dropping the Atlas Dual motor it's likely SkyWatcher will follow as inventory drops.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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mish
member
Reged: 02/10/09
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Enjoy while you can. I doubt there will be many new dumb mounts available in 5 years or so. With Orion dropping the Atlas Dual motor it's likely SkyWatcher will follow as inventory drops.
Well, since this "dumb" mount should be maintainable virtually forever (I have access to great machine shop facilities, including CNC capabilities), I would translate "enjoy it while you can" as "enjoy it forever".
So thanks for your vote of confidence!
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Maybe you should start a dumb mount vs dumb mount thread? Trouble is there is not much out there any more. Seems to indicate where the market has gone.
As for mount life expectancy, I view that as about 3 - 5 years, a little longer than most folks keep cars, then buy a new mount. Next will probably be a harmonic drive, even less mechanical parts.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1435
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Hi Phil,
Wish I could afford to replace the mount every 3-5 years! The cost of a mount today, if you are talking about upgrading each time, is getting closer to the cost of a car! 
I do know people that have been using their G-11 for many years, they still are not looking to replace it. I guess that it all depends on what you need and what you can afford.
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 378
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Hi Phil,
Wish I could afford to replace the mount every 3-5 years! The cost of a mount today, if you are talking about upgrading each time, is getting closer to the cost of a car!
Blueman
The cost wasn't extreme on my current mount (CGE Pro)was less than 1/6th - 1/7th a cars cost. Mind you my next mount in 2 - 4 years will probably cost double the Pro's cost. Everyone has their "cost of ownership" for me it's cheaper to buy than to use vaulable time to nurse an older mount or run around getting kit machined/repaired. I honstly don't have the time to waste on that, I'd rather be collecting photons with my eye.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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