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rmollise
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 4598
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Quote:
What causes the issue is not the secondary or the screws that adjust the secondary. The problem is with the primary moving around.
In a few cases, especially with larger scopes, that might be the case. Usually, no. My C8s, all three of 'em easily hold collimation sufficiently for high power planetary observing and imaging. And, actually, so does my NexStar 11.
-------------------- Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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Lane
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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As I said before the C8 really does not have the problem, my C8 gets off because I bang it around traveling sometimes. The C11 on an ALT-AZ mount also does not have the issue. It is the C11 on a GEM mount that has a real problem with the mirror moving around while viewing. This is because it gets put into some pretty stange positions when moving from one part of the sky to another. It can actually flip completely upside down. If I do all my viewing in the backyard and only look to the east where the sky is less light polluted then I don't have to collimate at all, I could use the C11 for months without collimating if that were there case.
-------------------- Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 605
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Hi, Of course there IS the possibility that there is something actually wrong somewhere in your situation.
Just saying.,
Regards,
skybsd
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Lane
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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I said that also, I said some of the grease liquified in my C11 recently and got on the corretor plate. That means less grease in between the mirror cell and the central tube and a thick layer of grease is the only thing keeping that mirror from shifting around. Without the grease the mirror would flop all over the place.
-------------------- Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80
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skybsd
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 605
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Hi Lane,
Quote:
I said that also, I said some of the grease liquified in my C11 recently and got on the corretor plate. That means less grease in between the mirror cell and the central tube and a thick layer of grease is the only thing keeping that mirror from shifting around. Without the grease the mirror would flop all over the place.
Indeed.,
As I'm always being reminded by the local distributor here - its difficult at times to keep in mind that for each of us, in addition to the fact that this is, after all a mass produced, inconsistently assembled product, there are lots of factors that can affect the performance of these scopes.
Is it possible that you can pop your C-11 into a shop where they may be able to take a look? I'm thinking that it can't hurt to have it checked out.
Sorry to hear about the oil leak there..,
Regards,
skybsd
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Lane
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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It isn't bad enough for that yet and I would not send it in anyway, I would pull it apart are grease it myself. I suspect most people with my scope would probably never collimate it. It just doesn't get off that much. But I and some the others out here are just real picky about perfect collimation. I think for as long as I have been looking into other peoples SCT's at our dark site I have never seen one that was perfectly collimated so I know that I am in the minority on this.
-------------------- Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80
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davidpitre
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1826
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
I think for as long as I have been looking into other peoples SCT's at our dark site I have never seen one that was perfectly collimated so I know that I am in the minority on this.
There is no such thing as perfect collimation. It will always be limited by the mechanics of the telescope, seeing conditions when star collimating, and the ability of the eye to judge.
When I hear people insisting that collimation be done at extremely high powers, I shake my head. What difference can collimating at powers considerably higher than those ever used for viewing make?
If it looks good at or a little higher than the highest power one will use for observing, further adjustments are not going to amount to much.
-------------------- David
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Lane
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Don't take things so literally.
-------------------- Mounts: CGEM, ORION SIRIUS, AT Voyager/motorized
SCTs: C6, C8, C9.25, C11,
Refractors: TV Pronto, Orion ED80
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pogobbler
member
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 31
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For me, my scopes are stored unmounted in an unheated, attached garage and aren't in any sort of case-- though when I can afford a good case, I plan on getting one. I usually either setup in the driveway or backyard, depending on what I want to look at, which involved a trip of either 10 feet or maybe 100-200 feet, taking out the mount and scope separately, with tear down being the reverse. Occasionally I do head out for darker skies, usually within 20 miles or so, with the scope riding in the car, seat-belted in.
As for collimation, I do have Bob's Knobs installed and collimate by tightening as much as possible before I go loosening any of the screws. There are occasions where I use 470x, so I really don't regularly collimate at powers higher than I view with. So there! :-p I barlow that on occasion because it can in some circumstances make it a touch easier.
I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with random differences in mechanical quality and the reason I can put up with that is that I don't have the money to pay for an similarly sized, alternative, comparable scope that would feature the level of mechanical accuracy and robustness that would make a significant difference. I realize these scopes are made to a price point where some compromises are inevitable.
Understand, it's not that the collimation honestly bothers me that much, it's more the recognition of how different others' experiences can be. I've heard stories, too, of people with scopes grossly out of collimation who never quite seem to realize just how far off they are, though it's something easily recognized by others. The question was more of just a matter of curiosity than a veiled complaint about my own scope.
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davidpitre
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1826
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
There are occasions where I use 470x, so I really don't regularly collimate at powers higher than I view with. So there!
I did not mean to intimate that you were too concerned with collimation. My experience is similar to yours. I generally check collimation most nights. Some of my past SCTs needed regular touch-ups especially after transportation to a dark sight. I've always been amazed at those who say they haven't collimated in years and it's still perfect. Not that I don't believe them, it is just a different experience than mine. My earlier post was in response the sometimes heard statement that "I never see" or "almost no" SCTs they come across are adequately collimated. At star parties, I'd say a good portion of the SCTs I look through are adequately collimated for the conditions and use they will receive so that collimation will not be the limiting factor. I guess that is my threshold for adequate: Will collimation be the limiting factor?
-------------------- David
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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I am inclined to agree with you. Much of the tweaking I have done in the past I felt was related to the fact that the mirror can move a tiny amount. Remember, we are talking about a few arc-minutes of movement for collimation and this can easily be attributed to the mirror being in an inconsistent spot.
In my C14, I find that if I move to a point in the sky that is much below about 45 degrees from the horizion, my scope's collimatin shifts.
If I am going to be observing a planet low in the sky (as I did with Jupiter), I do indeed collimate at a lower elevation. Then, when I go back to observing higher, I can see the collimation change.
To minimize this, I always approach focus from one direction when collimating and when viewing... Counter- Clockwise. This has the effect of "Jacking" the mirror into position. You are lifting the mirror on one side, causing it to "*BLEEP*" in the same manner. I will generally run the focuser in and out a bit to settle the mirror, then approach by the final focus by turning the focuser counter-clockwise. Running the focuser in and out a half turn before the final appoach seems to allow gravity to settle the non-focuser side so that when you approach final focus, you are alwasy "Lifting" the focuser side of the mirror into position. You can get it into VERY consistent final observing position. To be fair, I only do this when observing at high powers too, because at lower powers, well, it dosen't matter THAT much.
Using this method, I find my focused position is consistently more in collimation. Not alwasy PERFECT, but usually quite good.
I have not had to collimate my C14 but a couple of times in the last year, and most of that was due to the fact that for Jupiter, I was forced to recollimate when the mirror movement was simply too much because of the lower elevations that Jupiter was being viewed at. Now that it is pretty high, I have re-collimated at a higher lattitude and can now use the focus approach method.
Again, using this method means that my scope is often not in "Perfect" collimation, but for most viewing, it is more than good enough (Less than 3 arc minutes error).
So, I agree with you. Mirror movement and inconsistent settling is more than enough to cause an SCT to loose ultra-fine collimation.
Where we differer perhaps is in the amount of miss-collimation that we think is acceptable. Amounts less than 3 arc minutes have little real effect for most viewing, Only for the most demanding viewing will I bother to re-collimate. Otherwise, my SCT holds its collimation for a year or more at a time (using the focus method mentioned above to compenaste for slight mirror settling differences) and I simply don't fret over it.
I have also considered a "Reverse" solution to the problem. I have considered using spring tension on the mirror assembly to ensure that, along with the counter-clockwise approach, the other two points would always be pulled into postiion. I was thinking of using a threaded rod to go into the lock down holes, with a spring on the shaft on the outside of the tube working against a nut. This would allow the mirror to move, but always have some pre-load.
Of course this would only work on a scope with lock down screw holes, but I have seen where someone did something similar and I consider it a very promising idea.
Anyway, my advice is to simply not stress over collimation unless you are going to do planetary observing.
And try my method of working the focuser back and forth a turn to settle the mirror, then pushing the mirror into final position both for collimation and for day to day observing.. Do this and you may find that you don't feel as compelled to collimate every time you use your scope. I can SEE that if I approach from different directions when collimating vs normal focusing, or just in normal focusing, that with ever time I focus, critical collimation varies a bit. Using my method, it varies less. Again, I usually get fine focus that is within my own 3 arc minute range of acceptability and for the vast majority of observing, I think this is more than good enough.
Good luck.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2704
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The "Bleep" was due to the fact that I used at term that is also a synomym for a male sex organ. I think the work has multiple meenings, but the term was very exact and that was why I used it. It would take several word to say it othewise, just like it has taken this post several more words than necessary to explain why automated censorship is silly.
Regards.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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JerryWise
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 7839
Loc: Lexington, SC
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I'm looking for a set of "Bob's Knobs" for my 10" RCX.
-------------------- Jerry
Celestron C-11 Hyperstar
(and some other nick-knacks)
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Rusty
Postmaster
   
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17734
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Like rboe, my N11 has only needed collimation once after the initial - and it has about 45,000 miles riding in the basement of a motorhome.
-------------------- N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4123
Loc: Ireland
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I think a lot depends on the size of the mirror. Mirror-flop-induced collimation changes were easy to see in my 16" SCT, less so in my 8".
-- Jeff.
-------------------- Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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charles genovese
super member
   
Reged: 02/04/06
Posts: 132
Loc: Madisonville Louisiana
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I currently have a C5, C8, and a C14, and have had another C8 and C14 before that. I regularly check collimation at 400X and rarely ever have to make any adjustments, even after transport to an observing site. I think your secondary adjustment screws are too loose.
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Quote:
The "Bleep" was due to the fact that I used at term that is also a synomym for a male sex organ. I think the work has multiple meenings, but the term was very exact and that was why I used it. It would take several word to say it othewise, just like it has taken this post several more words than necessary to explain why automated censorship is silly.
Regards.
Wow, I didn't know "Cheshire" was a term for that..
-drl
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2928
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Quote:
>>>only about 3 times per year when the skies are good enough<<<
With a star centered, I dither the focuser very slightly through focus and watch the dancing blob expand and contract, independent of seeing. If it expands symmetrically, it's good. If it expands toward ones side, I adjust the secondary to shift the image in that direction and try again.
Using this method you can tell if the scope is collimated every time you focus when viewing at higher magnification. This generally leads to more frequent touching up of the collimation.
Works on Newts too.
Whoa there Luigi - not on fast Newts, with the secondary being offset and all that - if you want to tweak visibly in a fast Newtonian you must use the comatic stars at the edge as a guide. This is one reason I like centered spider vanes, because you can use those to judge the symmetry of the out-of-focus pattern.
-drl
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