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habsburg8
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 802
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Another Royal Astro telescope, this time a model marketed by Lafayette Radio Electronics as their "Arcturus." This particular instrument was purchased by the previous owner in 1961. (I have the original paperwork for the telescope.)
The serial number is 070723. I would interpret this as follows:
***The first digit in the sequence is the year in which the telescope was manufactured in Japan, or 1960.
***The second two digits, or '70,' are a direct link to the model number displayed in the Royal Astro telescope catalog. This would make it their Model No. R-70.
***The last three digits tell the order in which the telescope came off of the assembly line at the factory. In this case the "Arcturus" was the 723rd scope made that year.
Any other interpretations of the serial number(s)?
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desertrefugee
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Any other interpretations of the serial number(s)?
No interpretations, but a few more numbers can be found in this thread. I'm not sure they follow the same convention, though - unless 1967-vintage instruments are more commonly encountered now . . .
Royal Serial Numbers
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"Illimitable ocean, without bound, Without dimension, where length, breadth, and height, And time, and place are lost." - Milton
-Darrell
Reflectors - 76 to 305mm (f4.7 to f9.2)
Refractors - 50 to 120mm (f5 to f16.7)
Binoculars - 6x15 to 22x100
N. Phoenix, AZ
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JamesE
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/22/07
Posts: 1112
Loc: Westbank, BC, Canada
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I don't know John. My 15TEA is #670161. If the year was the first number that would put my scope as 1966 which is three years ahead of your observations that the Pier Mounted 76mm Tasco was only offered in '63.
What does seem fairly consistent from this thread and This Thread is that the second number is inline with the Objective size. 7=76.2mm, 6=60-62mm, 9=90mm etc.
The two conflicting matters is the Ozzie scopes and their second number and your R61 scopes first 2 digits.
I would probably agree with you that the last 3-4 digits are possibly run numbers but, I am not entirely convinced that the first number is a year. I think it's either Regional number (like DVD's) or an internal number used for tracking. Ie....Royal made it's brand, as well as Sears, and Tascos, etc, sold all over the world and the company probably needed to segregate it somehow.
I would suspect that the first number in initial runs would follow suit to your model number theory. My thoughts are that one aspect of your numbering scheme only seems applicable or exclusive to only a Royal Astro marketed scope.
Anyways, my two cents for what it's worth.
Cheers,
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James
(Thanks to Attilla for the Clear Sky charts)
Current Projects : Tasco 15TEA - 3 inch pier mounted planetary scope
Priorities : Wife, Kids
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habsburg8
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 802
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James:
My first inclination was to identify the first digit in the sequence with some in-house accounting number at Royal Astro. However, I decided to go with the majority rule and associate it with the year of manufacture. Upon further consideration, who knows what it represents?
Also confusing is the sequence of numbers found on the Sears #6345 refractor, also a Royal product. They all have a combination of 990XXX. I would assume that 90 is the clear aperture in millimeters, but it is possible that only the second '9' in the sequence corresponds to the lens diameter. If the first digit is the year of manufacture (in this case 1969), then that would mean that all 600 or so scopes were made in that single year. Since Sears starting selling these in late 1969, this adds to the confusion.
The last three (and possibly four) digits definitely correspond to the production number of the scope.
Breaking away from the tradition of numbering scopes in this fashion is how Royal tagged their R61-D models. The first two digits in the six-digit sequence of 610001 are almost certainly associated with Royal's catalog number of R-61D.
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stevenk
super member
Reged: 07/01/05
Posts: 143
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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John
Fantastic write up
To think that you have the first off the line - amazing!
Steve
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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I think John was destined to get a first off the line. The best part of the story is that he had it all that time and didn't even realize it. This is becoming a very interesting thread. I think James has a good point regarding the his 15TEA. Now maybe it might make sense that the in-house scopes, those with the Astro or Royal Astro plates have the first number as the year. As John pointed out the Sears 6345 would make sense for sure.
Anyway I've done my own analysis on all this and I took all the sequences of numbers and then I subtracted Pi from each of them. Applying a simple first order derivative to them (using the chain rule, of course), I came up with a series of simultaneous equations. Now solving each of those and then applying Eigenvectors to the entire series of numbers, and then crunching those numbers on the 1980 Seymour Cray supercomputer with liquid nitrogen cooling (which I incidentally picked up on ebay at buy it now pricing), this was my result ------- 
Any ideas, other than to suggest that I should have had coffee before I touched the computer today...... or maybe go back to bed 
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artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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I have a related question on in house optical engineers at Royal. In the manual of the 839 Swift model that I recently sold  it stated on the front page that the Swift 839 was designed by Shosuke Kojima, one of the foremost telescope designers in Japan. Does anyone know if he influenced other designs or ever worked for Royal Astro Optical Inc? If not, who were the recognized Optical engineers and what is the history of Royal Astro telescopes? How long have they been around? Is the consensus that Royal Astro, at the time, produced the best of all the individual makers out there (Royal, Towa, Kenko), or was the Nippon Kogaku or Goto brand the cream of the crop? I'm interested to know if those who are Unitron aficianados believe that the Unitron lenses are the best. I'm certainly no expert on this, but after looking through a few different brands, I have my thoughts on the subject. What is everyone else's take on the best at that time (late '50s through mid '70s)??  BTW refractors only. Maybe this should be a completely different thread and we could take a poll on the best overall manufacturer of classic refractors??
All these questions I have...
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artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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habsburg8
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 802
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James:
Another image of a metal tag from a Tasco #10TE Solarama refractor telescope. As I recall, the rest of the focuser body was put on the tailpiece of a Jaegers 6-inch F/15 optical tube that I had custom fabricated for the Great Mars Opposition of 2003.
According to the 'best' interpretation available so far, the engraved serial number of 871061 can be interpreted as follows:
***The first digit of '8' indicates the year of manufacture, or 1968.
***The second digit of '7' indicates the aperture class of the scope in millimeters, in this case representing those with a 76.2mm diameter objective lens.
***The last four digits of '1061' indicate its position in the production run.
Am I correct in making these assumptions?
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JamesE
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/22/07
Posts: 1112
Loc: Westbank, BC, Canada
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Quote:
Anyway I've done my own analysis on all this and I took all the sequences of numbers and then I subtracted Pi from each of them. Applying a simple first order derivative to them (using the chain rule, of course), I came up with a series of simultaneous equations. Now solving each of those and then applying Eigenvectors to the entire series of numbers, and then crunching those numbers on the 1980 Seymour Cray supercomputer with liquid nitrogen cooling (which I incidentally picked up on ebay at buy it now pricing), this was my result ------- :confused
I peed myself laughing Rich.   
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James
(Thanks to Attilla for the Clear Sky charts)
Current Projects : Tasco 15TEA - 3 inch pier mounted planetary scope
Priorities : Wife, Kids
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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Ha, ha, 
Hi James,
I was bored this morning, so I tried to add some levity. I was chuckling as I was writing that nonsense. Glad it gave you a laugh.
In respect to the numbers, this really is very interesting. I hope someone might take up one of the questions I posed in the next posting I made. I am interested to see what the consensus is for the Astro Optical vs. Towa, vs Goto, vs, Nippon Kogaku, vs. Kenko, vs Unitron, etc... John would probably be the one to look to, but I'd love to hear Clint and Brian as they are definitely Uni experts, and Clint on the Nippon Kogaku front.
Have a good night my friend, I'm going back to the political scene on TV..
Rich
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artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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JamesE
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/22/07
Posts: 1112
Loc: Westbank, BC, Canada
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Hey John,
You've flushed out a lot with the numbers already. I am just humbly giving my perspective. I would probably agree with most of these assumptions so far except that the Australian 76mm's and your Royal 60mm's numbers are so far the only incongruent pieces to this theory.
I would agree to take the position of using the first digit as year stamp for right now though, I am still not fully convinced that the first number is a year stamp.
Something occurred to me last night. I am wondering if the first two digits are flipped on the Australian and Royal scopes numbers to represent the Eastern Hemisphere.
Anyways just a few thoughts. I like this thread, it is revealing more each time.
Cheers and thanks John for your work.
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James
(Thanks to Attilla for the Clear Sky charts)
Current Projects : Tasco 15TEA - 3 inch pier mounted planetary scope
Priorities : Wife, Kids
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desertrefugee
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 1215
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Am I correct in making these assumptions?
Well, at first I was skeptical, but I'm beginning to think you're on to something here, John. This is exactly the code I was hoping to break in the compilation from my thread referenced above.
However, the two that stumped me then and still give me pause are the two Royal instruments that ended up in Australia:
Quote:
740483....Royal..................Steve(Aust)
741117....Royal..(long OTA)...(Aust), (no drawtube!)
Clearly, these two telescopes (76.2mm) do not conform to the "7" second digit characteristic.
We're close, but there appears to be a wild card on the native Royal units.
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"Illimitable ocean, without bound, Without dimension, where length, breadth, and height, And time, and place are lost." - Milton
-Darrell
Reflectors - 76 to 305mm (f4.7 to f9.2)
Refractors - 50 to 120mm (f5 to f16.7)
Binoculars - 6x15 to 22x100
N. Phoenix, AZ
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JamesE
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/22/07
Posts: 1112
Loc: Westbank, BC, Canada
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Darrell
I am sorry but for some reason, I didn't read that the Australian 76mm's were Royal products in your initial thread. I though they were Tasco's. If that is the case then it would make sense that Royal would number their scopes differently than their other production lines. It's their BABY!
But, that gets contradicted by the one 60mm royal that is #262017.
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James
(Thanks to Attilla for the Clear Sky charts)
Current Projects : Tasco 15TEA - 3 inch pier mounted planetary scope
Priorities : Wife, Kids
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grendel
sage
Reged: 04/12/09
Posts: 243
Loc: Canterbury, Kent, UK
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Perhaps the first number indicates the company it was produced for? and there was a code for each supplier?
Grendel
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Max Lattanzi
sage
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 216
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Quote:
Quote:
Am I correct in making these assumptions?
Well, at first I was skeptical, but I'm beginning to think you're on to something here, John. This is exactly the code I was hoping to break in the compilation from my thread referenced above.
However, the two that stumped me then and still give me pause are the two Royal instruments that ended up in Australia:
Quote:
740483....Royal..................Steve(Aust)
741117....Royal..(long OTA)...(Aust), (no drawtube!)
Clearly, these two telescopes (76.2mm) do not conform to the "7" second digit characteristic.
We're close, but there appears to be a wild card on the native Royal units.
I am getting a bit lost myself in all these serials...
I would just sum-up my own Royal-Astro, so that someone can double-check the hypotheses
76/1200 s/n 272691 (label: Palomar)
60/1200 s/n 260982 (label: Royal-Astro)
60/1200 s/n 960248 (label: SPI)
Hope this helps
Max
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Max Lattanzi
sage
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 216
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Quote:
I have a related question on in house optical engineers at Royal. In the manual of the 839 Swift model that I recently sold it stated on the front page that the Swift 839 was designed by Shosuke Kojima, one of the foremost telescope designers in Japan. Does anyone know if he influenced other designs or ever worked for Royal Astro Optical Inc? If not, who were the recognized Optical engineers and what is the history of Royal Astro telescopes? How long have they been around? Is the consensus that Royal Astro, at the time, produced the best of all the individual makers out there (Royal, Towa, Kenko), or was the Nippon Kogaku or Goto brand the cream of the crop? I'm interested to know if those who are Unitron aficianados believe that the Unitron lenses are the best. I'm certainly no expert on this, but after looking through a few different brands, I have my thoughts on the subject. What is everyone else's take on the best at that time (late '50s through mid '70s)?? BTW refractors only. Maybe this should be a completely different thread and we could take a poll on the best overall manufacturer of classic refractors??
Rich,
I am interested as well re old telescope designers in Japan, but I found it almost impossible to get infos. Maybe Galakuma could help in this regard (but we should open a new thread).
Regarding optical quality, as per my own experience (but I heard others with similar findings) Unitrons are in general variable, for the company was doing by hand all the mechanics in house, while getting lenses outside from various sources. I can tell you that mine are not optically my best classics. Still, they usually perform well. But certainly their lenses are not the best.
To my eyes, the value of a Unitron is in the whole mechanical package and in the sound wealth of accessories. They are *very beautiful* telescopes of truly remarkable mechanics and credible optical quality.
Just my two cents.
Max
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habsburg8
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 802
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A close-up view the focuser tag from one of my Tasco 20T pedestal refractors. These were listed in Royal's catalog as Model No. R-102. There are some slight variations in the mechanical construction from early to later models, most noticeably in the top portion of the cradle and in the motor drive assembly.
The serial number on this one is 910841, which can be intrepreted to mean that it was the 41st telescope in the R-102 series (108mm clear aperture) made in the year 1969. Since the previous owner purchased this particular scope in 1969-70, it tends to support the belief that the first digit in the sequence represents the year of manufacture. Obviously Royal Astro did not intend to make too many of these per year for export.
Formation of image, clarity and contrast are all very similar to an excellent performing Tasco #10TE 76.2mm Solarama refractor, but with increased aperture. The performance is not quite as good as my R61-D in overall image formation, and my 'Sears' 90mm refractor beats it hands down on deep-sky objects and isolated star fields.
However, the amount of planetary detail that can be seen through the larger 4 1/4-inch pedestal-mounted refractor is slightly better than that of the Sears 90mm, but not by much. In direct side-by-side comparison tests on Jupiter the 108mm clearly showed more intricate detail in and around the Great Red Spot, and just a tad bit more cloud structure in the Jovian atmosphere.
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: bellevue ne.
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John....Here's the focuser tag on my 20TE after a complete restoration that was just recently completed. Inside the motor cover is a date that reads...1969-5.  Mike
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7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
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habsburg8
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/07/05
Posts: 802
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Another one of my favorite Royal Astro scopes and a refractor that compares very favorably optically to the R61-D is this S-5, a 60mm model with a focal length of 910mm. It has considerably better optics--sharper images and improved contrast--than Tasco's venerable #7TE (also a Royal product). However, I like the mechanical construction and paint finish of Tasco's version better.
This particular scope was featured in an article titled CLASSIC TELESCOPES, which appeared in the July 2008 issue of The Rosette Gazette Newsletter.
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woodsman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/12/08
Posts: 1072
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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I saw one of those on ebay awhile back. I was tempted to bid on it, but just too many scopes at the time. It's the only one I've ever seen.
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artisticwoods
C-14 Orange Tube, C-8, C-5, C-90 Astro Model, C8 Schmidt Camera 8" f1.5, C5.5 Schmidt Camera f1.65, SPI 42mm f/19 Refractor, Sears 90mm f/15.56 Ref, Sears 80mm f/15 Ref, Swift 77mm f/13 Model 831, Scope 60mm f/11.7, Sears 50mm f/12
Unitron Model 140 75mm/1200mm, Unitron model 128 60mm/900mm
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