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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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For nearly an hour last night I attempted and failed to glimpse this nearby dwarf galaxy with my 60/1000mm refractor. The Moon was glaringly bright, but it was clear so I tried and tried to catch this fuzzy with no luck. I used powers of 31x (TV 32mm "symmetrical"), 40x (25mm Sirius "symmetrical), 53x (19mm Erfle), 60x (16.8mm ortho?), 71x (Meade 14mm 5000 UWA) and 143x (7mm ortho). With averted vision the 13th mag foreground star in front of the galaxy's center was seen with some difficulty but no dice at all on the galaxy itself. Has anyone else had any luck with this DSO on a bright Moonful night? Last night was the first night that I've seriously ever tried to see this object so advice would be helpful. Thanks for the help!
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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blb
sage
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 214
Loc: Piedmont NC
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I think the sky was to bright to see it with the moon only two days past full. Good luck when the sky is much darker.
Clear skies, Buddy
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C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66
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Astrojensen
sage
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Hi Patrick
Why do you always try for the most difficult objects during near full Moon???? Are you some kind of masochist?
Anyway, the surface brightness of IC 10 is very low, lower than that of M33 or M101 by a good margin, and the overall magnitude is far lower as well. Combine and you've got one tough little galaxy.
I have never seen it in my 63mm Zeiss, despite several attempts, but this September I saw it in both a 18" dob and a 6" refractor. It was very easy in the dob and needed just a little averted vision in the 6", so it gave me hope that seeing it in the 63mm is not totally impossible.
I would suggest trying for this one on the darkest, clearest night you can possibly find. Start at low power and work upwards. It is not a large galaxy, so medium power should be best, but remember that the surface brightness is low. Worse, the egdes are very fuzzy, irregular and ill-defined, making it even harder to see the galaxy. Objects with sharp edges are always easier to detect, since the sudden change in brigthness from the background, however subtle, is always easier to see compared to something that brightens only very gradually.
Best of luck with this little one.
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3449
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
For nearly an hour last night I attempted and failed to glimpse this nearby dwarf galaxy with my 60/1000mm refractor. The Moon was glaringly bright ...
Unh ... The word "dwarf" as in "dwarf galaxy" means that it's faint, with seriously low surface brightness. Not faint like M33, not faint like Barnard's Galaxy, but *really* faint. Seeing one with the Moon up is utterly out of the question -- for anyone. You might as well try to see M31 during broad daylight.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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starrancher
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Northern Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
For nearly an hour last night I attempted and failed to glimpse this nearby dwarf galaxy with my 60/1000mm refractor. The Moon was glaringly bright ...
Unh ... The word "dwarf" as in "dwarf galaxy" means that it's faint, with seriously low surface brightness. Not faint like M33, not faint like Barnard's Galaxy, but *really* faint. Seeing one with the Moon up is utterly out of the question -- for anyone. You might as well try to see M31 during broad daylight.
And with 60mms' to boot . Talk about a challenge .
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LXD75 AR5
LXD75 SN8
Series 4000 Plossls
Misc. other stuff
Fort Rock , Az .
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Tom Polakis
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 767
Loc: Tempe, Arizona
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Patrick,
As others say, wait until the moon is completely out of the sky before going after objects with such low surface brightness. I notice your location is New Mexico, so I'm sure you have access to a dark site.
When you have that clear and dark night, here is a good sequence of Local Group galaxies in Cassiopiea to lead up to IC 10 (from brightest to faintest):
NGC 185
NGC 147
IC 10
If you have success with IC 10, go after the heavily obscured Maffei 1, which is not in the Local Group, but still nearby.
Tom
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Tom Polakis
Tempe, AZ
Visual observing, DSLR photography, lunar & planetary imaging
http://www.pbase.com/polakis/
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Quote:
Why do you always try for the most difficult objects during near full Moon???? Are you some kind of masochist?
Hi Thomas,
 No, I just like to familarize myself with the area, plus a challenge is fun. Hey catching 13th mag stars under a very bright Moon ain't bad for a 60mm! 
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
Edited by Patricko (11/05/09 01:47 PM)
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Quote:
And with 60mms' to boot . Talk about a challenge .
Yes sir, that's what makes it fun!
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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Feidb
super member
Reged: 10/09/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Nevada
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I have tried for it at two different star parties where the skies were relatively dark. No luck with a 16". Not sure if I was expecting more and just passed over it, or what. I do know it's one of those really tough ones to see like that faint galaxy in eastern Sagittarius. IC-10 is one of my goals for the next time I'm out. At least now I have a better idea of what to look for. It doesn't even look like a smudge. It's more like a very faint open cluster at first.
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Present gear:
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5020
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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You won't see this object even with a 10 or 12-inch when there's a nearly full moon in the sky. This galaxy can be seen through a 4-inch from a dark sky when the moon is absent, but you'll probably want to look for it with an 8 or 10-inch telescope. IC-10 is a dwarf galaxy that is a member of the Local Group and a distant companion of M-31. As such, we're looking at it through a lot of interstellar dust in our own galaxy and that makes it look a lot fainter than it really is. It's a fairly large in apparent size object, but individual parts of it are dim and that means if the sky is flooded with light, you'll never see it even with a much larger telescope. Dark and clear skies count much more than bringing a large telescope to bear on it. Those are the sorts of nights at dark sites that enabled me to find NGC-147, NGC-6822 and NGC-185, all dwarf members of the Local Group as well as IC-342, which until recently was a suspected member. It is now known to be independent of the Local Group, but like the other galaxies listed there is no way you can see it through moonlit skies. Try again this weekend with a larger telescope from a dark site, before the moon floods the sky again with light.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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astrokido
space wanderer
Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 660
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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Some dwarf galaxies are so faint that they are suspected by astrophysicists through their equations, not observed by astronomers.
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- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40
The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com
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Astrojensen
sage
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Quote:
Unh ... The word "dwarf" as in "dwarf galaxy" means that it's faint, with seriously low surface brightness.
In this case, yes, but not always. M32 is also a dwarf galaxy, but that one has very high surface brightness. A similar, but more distant case, is NGC 4486B, a companion to M87.
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark
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Astrojensen
sage
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Quote:
Hi Thomas,
No, I just like to familarize myself with the area
Ah, learning fast aren't we? You make me proud, son!
I must say I am glad you remember and use my advise to make yourself familiar with the area around a faint object under mediocre conditions to be familiar with it when returning later. Not many people do that.
But wasting an hour on IC 10 under such poor conditions is maybe a little extreme...
Quote:
plus a challenge is fun. Hey catching 13th mag stars under a very bright Moon ain't bad for a 60mm!
It's very good indeed and challenges are always fun.
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark
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scopethis
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/30/08
Posts: 619
Loc: Kingman, Ks
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Just relax and wait for ole Luna to go away. Then you'll have that great dark sky covered with clouds. At least that's the norm in Kansas.
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Last night from 6:15-8:15PM LT I went after IC 10 again before the Moon came up. I’d say transparency was a 7/10 for most of the time. This time I used my ST80 and 102/1000mm achromats.
ST80:
I started off using the Meade 14mm for 29x and then Barlowed it. For several minutes to no avail IC 10 never revealed itself to me. After trying several more powers I ended up using a 6mm Expanse and 2x Barlow for ~133x. At this power the 13th mag foreground star was clearly seen with the slightest averted vision but no fuzziness indicating a galaxy.
The ST80 was sitting atop an AZ3 mount so I attempted to wiggle the scope up and down using the knobs. Using this technique with extreme concentrated averted vision I BELIEVE to have detected an ever so ghostly faint faint glow surrounding the 13th mag foreground star. No matter how long I tried this I still was not convinced that I detected this galaxy for sure.
4”f/10:
At this point it became clear to me that more aperture or a more transparent night was needed to confirm or deny what was SUSPECTED in the ST80. Not being able to control the latter I went back inside and retrieved the 102/1000mm refractor. This 4" f/10 achromat was purchased used with several accessories for a very low price, yet has surprisingly exceptional optics rivaling those of my 60/1000mm Carton.
Now armed with an additional ~22mm more of aperture I went back to work. In went the 6mm Expanse for ~167x to scrutinize the area more thoroughly. With this additional aperture the 13th mag foreground star was very easy and the nearby 10th mag stars were bright while 7th mag HIP 1550 was uncomfortably luminescent. The 4" is mounted to a CG4 in Alt/Az configuration for quick aiming.
Before proceeding any further I put HIP 1550 out of the FOV. Returning back to the intended area I used averted vision and AGAIN detected some sort of faint uneven fuzziness. Moving the scope back and forth with averted vision again seemed to bring out this suspicion even more. I included a crude drawing of what I saw but the galaxy is MUCH MUCH brighter in the drawing than in real life.
I will not feel confident in saying that it was seen 100% until I can repeat the same results a few more times on better nights. I live and observe in an orange zone bordering a yellow zone but am fortunate to have access to green zone and blue zone skies. In order to confirm what was strongly suspected a trip to these darker sites is in order to confirm this suspected observation. IF I did in fact catch this DSO with the 80mm and 102mm refractors it was as difficult if not more so than catching NGC 891 in the 60mm refractor from my home in the orange zone. I hope to get an opportunity to verify or dispel this sessions suspicions soon.
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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blb
sage
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 214
Loc: Piedmont NC
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Quote:
Just relax and wait for ole Luna to go away. Then you'll have that great dark sky covered with clouds. At least that's the norm in Kansas.
It seems to be the norm in NC this year too. It's really only clear when the moon is up lately. This week has been wonderfully clear but with high humidity. The light of the near full moon and humidity made DSO's impossible. Next week with the new moon its forcast to be mostly cloudy with a good chance of rain. 
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C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66
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nunciusaustralis
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 95
Loc: Rio de janeiro, Brazil
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Let me know if u do it. Will make my most wanted dreams become real. I will also rip all my books on optics.
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Nuncius Australis
70mm celestron EQ
9x50 finderscope
15X80mm binocular
20mm e 10mm k eye pieces
2xomni barlow
www.nunciusaustralis.blogspot.com
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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I did seek out and find NGC 185 and strongly suspected NGC 147 with the ST80 f/5. NGC 278 is ridiculously (so is NGC 205) easy compared to the latter two GXs. Next clear night I will attempt to see NGC 185 and 147 in the 60/1000mm refractor. If these two GXs can be had in the little 60mm, then well....who knows maybe under some awesome sky IC10 can be too. 
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Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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Astrojensen
sage
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Hi Patrick
Both NGC 185 and 147 can be seen in a 60mm, I have seen both with my 63mm Zeiss Telemator some years ago, when I begun the H400 survey. 147 is the more difficult of the two, but I found it just slightly more difficult than 185, not a lot more, which most sources would have me believe. NGC 278 is, as you say, a piece of cake in comparison.
It is a long time, since I have seen 147 and 185, but I do think they are a bit smaller than IC 10.
Oh, I just did a quick comparison using DSS... 185, 147 and IC 10 are all about the same size, so now you know what to expect. On the DSS images, 185 is a lot brighter than either 147 or IC 10, and IC 10 even more diffuse than 147, but just a *little* fainter. It should be possible in a 60mm. We will not give up! 
I just wish I had some clear skies, so I could join the hunt!
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: Estonia
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Oddly enough, from green/yellow skies, neither 147 or 185 are exactly easy in my 12", although they are doable.
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