Jobryant
super member
Reged: 01/13/09
Posts: 137
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What's the fastest FL a scope can be before the image becomes unuseable even when using highest quality EPs? What's the fastest FL that some of you have used and had good visual results?
-------------------- TV76
Ethos 17mm
Tal 24mm
Owl 20mm/30mm
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JayKSC
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Florida
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I seem to recall that there are some astrographs that can be used visually and operate in the f4 range. I'm sure I've seen at least one (maybe a Tak) that does something like f3.3 or f3.9 and can be used visually. Celestron has the fastar system on some of its cassegrains and can operate at f1.9 or so for CCD imaging. I'd say the focal length performance is limited by the optical quality, but that faster focal lengths are much more sensitive to optical imperfections. I've never seen a refractor do much under f4 or f5.
- Jay South Florida
-------------------- Refractor manic.
My Sketches
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snart
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 596
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
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Some modern eyepieces can handle f-ratios as small as f/3.5 or so, but I would personally not go below about f/4.0 and then only in a Newt, and at that ratio a Paracorr is pretty much required unless you are fond of coma! In a refractor the lowest f-ratio I have seen is an f/5.0. More traditional eyepiece designs such as the Plossl and Orthoscopic will not handle the light cone at these fast f-ratios. And the fastest scope I have ever looked through was a f/4.5 Newt and it also showed a lot of coma.
-------------------- Celestron C100ED w/ Moonlite focuser
6" f/9.25 Newtonian - GEM
Meade 10" f/10 Schmidt-Cassegrain
18" f/4.5 Newtonian - Dob
4mm & 5mm TMB SMCs, 6mm, 7mm, 9mm, 12mm UO HD Orthos, 4.8mm, 7mm, 11mm, 16mm, 20mm TV Naglers, 24mm, 32mm, 40mm TV WFs, 55mm TV Plossl.
Edited by snart (11/06/09 11:08 AM)
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galaxyman
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 04/04/05
Posts: 1472
Loc: Limerick, Pa
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Quote:
What's the fastest FL a scope can be before the image becomes unuseable even when using highest quality EPs? What's the fastest FL that some of you have used and had good visual results?
Are you talking specifically about refractors?
If so, I have a club member who owns a APM 7" f/6 achromat that provides wonderful images at various magnifications.
There are some 6" f/5 achros (Skywatcher/Celestron) that some forum members own and like them. I've only seen through two of those (both Skywatcher), and one was not very good, while the other was pretty decent.
In newts, focal ratio is only a problem with coma, though a Paracorr can help with that. For instance we have a new 22" f/3.6 dob in the club, and using a Paracorr with Ethos eyepieces is fine.
Quality of optics is the most important part here.
Karl E.O.H.
Chesmont Astronomical Society Telekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob TMB 8" F/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great achro ES 6" F/6.5 achro- NEW Orion 4" f/6 Refractor. Also not bad for an achro Celestron 10x60 binos
-------------------- So many galaxies, so little time!
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David E
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 3020
Loc: North Carolina
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Quote:
I seem to recall that there are some astrographs that can be used visually and operate in the f4 range. I'm sure I've seen at least one (maybe a Tak) that does something like f3.3 or f3.9 and can be used visually. - Jay South Florida
Wow! That's fast. I have a $50 Vivitar that's F8, I guess that makes it half-fast. 
-------------------- David E
If you keep a stack of old Orion catalogs in your bathroom, you might be an astro-redneck.
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skyward_eyes
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/12/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Arizona
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I know this is the refractor forum, but some of us dob folk are using eyepieces on scopes as fast has f/2.55 and they come to focus.
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Jobryant
super member
Reged: 01/13/09
Posts: 137
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My concern is with refractors. How much does the Paracorr help. Any way a F1.25 would work very well visually?
-------------------- TV76
Ethos 17mm
Tal 24mm
Owl 20mm/30mm
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Paul G
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 2277
Loc: Freedonia
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I use a 90mm f4.9 apo refractor that is superb visually.
-------------------- Gus
Tasco 4.5 Reflector EQ Telescope
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starrancher
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 613
Loc: Northern Arizona
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Not to hijack the thread but the Meade 8 inch Schmidt Newtonian at f4 has performed more than excellent for me visually on DSOs' . Using Plossls' down to 26mm at 31x magnification with great edge of field performance . Only the 32mm at 25x shows an edge problem & really only on a bright wide cluster like M45 & this is eyepiece astigmatism . The corrector plate does an awesome job of correcting coma & the Plossls' really do handle the steep light cone very well .
Edited by starrancher (11/06/09 01:54 PM)
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Tamiji Homma
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/24/07
Posts: 1092
Loc: California, USA
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Quote:
What's the fastest FL a scope can be before the image becomes unuseable even when using highest quality EPs? What's the fastest FL that some of you have used and had good visual results?
This is my finder scope Stellarvue 60mm f/3.75.
It produces 13.2x 7.5 degree view with Ethos 17, 10.2x 7.8 degree view with Nagler 22T4.

Tammy
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Astrojensen
sage
Reged: 10/05/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
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Quote:
I know this is the refractor forum, but some of us dob folk are using eyepieces on scopes as fast has f/2.55 and they come to focus.
f/2.55?!!! Now that's what I call a fast scope! I've never heard of a visual telescope with an f/ratio that fast. Could you give us some more details on it, please? How big is it? ATM? Size of secondary? Coma corrector used, etc.
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark
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Cyclop_si
sage
Reged: 03/13/08
Posts: 260
Loc: Slovenia
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Quote:
Quote:
I know this is the refractor forum, but some of us dob folk are using eyepieces on scopes as fast has f/2.55 and they come to focus.
f/2.55?!!! Now that's what I call a fast scope! I've never heard of a visual telescope with an f/ratio that fast. Could you give us some more details on it, please? ....
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3430080&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&vc=1
-------------------- David
-------
Astro Professional 152P, Wiliam Optics FLT98, Wiliam Optics Megrez 72
Lunt LS60THa
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Buck
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 576
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Take a look here. It also looks like Al is designing another Paracore for very fast scopes.
http://www.loptics.com/fast14p5.html
Buck
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JayKSC
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
I seem to recall that there are some astrographs that can be used visually and operate in the f4 range. I'm sure I've seen at least one (maybe a Tak) that does something like f3.3 or f3.9 and can be used visually. - Jay South Florida
Wow! That's fast. I have a $50 Vivitar that's F8, I guess that makes it half-fast. 
Just to follow-up... The Tak Epsilon 180 astrograph operates at f2.8 and can apparently be used visually... I know it's not a refractor, of course, but wanted to note.
Jay South Florida
-------------------- Refractor manic.
My Sketches
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
   
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25203
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
My concern is with refractors. How much does the Paracorr help.
A Paracorr would cause a reduction in performance of any properly functioning refractor. The aberration it corrects is caused by paraboloid mirrors but not by spherical section lenses.
-------------------- John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1280
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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The original TeleVue Genesis was f/5, with later ones increased to f/5.4 and the current NP101 is also f/5.4. My Tak FCT76 had a focal length of 487 mm which works out to f/6.4, however with the reducer it became an f/4.5 astrograph with excellent pinpoint stars at the edge.
Telephoto lenses for cameras are in essence multi-optic refractors with the focal plane coincident with the film plane or sensor plane (digital camera) of the camera body. One of the best camera lenses that I had for my Olympus OM system cameras was the Olympus Zuiko 100 mm f/2 telephoto. This short telephoto lense has ED glass for excellent color correction. It is also flat field. In telescope terms this would be a 50 mm objective with a 100 mm focal length. I have an adapter that bayonets on to any of my Olympus lenses which turns them into a fast upright image spotting scope. One of the "normal" focal length Olympus lenses I have is a 50 mm f/1.2, in telescope terms this would be a 41.66 mm objective working at f/1.2. The edge of field is distorted and it has gobs of chromatic aberration, but in low light situations it is great. It too, will work with the visual adapter.
The question "How fast is too fast?" has to be refined and asked in relationship to what. If you want to maintain excellent color correction and spherical correction my FCT76 could do that at f/4.5. The telephoto lenses with a visual adapter are much faster, but the errors are really shown at f/1.2, but there is no denying that f/1.2 works great in low light situations when one can be a bit forgiving of less than perfect correction.
Barry Simon
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2703
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There is in fact kind of an answer to this.
I am assuming that you are talking about performance at the center of the field. If not, then I mis-understood your question.
The book "Telescope Optics" shows ray tracing for a variety of different eyepiece designs at three different focal ratios: f/5, f/10, and f/15. I am simply conveying the information presented in this outstanding book. This is factual, not my opinion.
At f/15, virtually any eyepiece design is capable of putting the ray bundle into a tiny point inside a one arc minute circle (the smallest that can be easily resolved).
At f/10, the Hyugenian and Ramsden are BARELY hanging one, putting a theortical bundle outside (Hyugenian) or at (Ramsden) the one arc minute circle diameter. Past this speed, these two eyepiece start to fail quickly. At f/10, all of the other designs stay sub one arc minute (according to the traces).
At f/5, the Konigh and Plossls are close, but no longer confining the rays to a one arcminute circle (and for what it is worth, the Plossl has the smaller ray spread). The Abbe, Erfle, and Kellner are at about 2 arc minutes. The Ramsden is at about 5 arc minutes, and the Huygenian as at about 12 arc minutes.
I would say based on this that f/5 is too fast for all eyepieces to deliver the ultimate performance they are capable of.
F/6 would likley be about the fastest you could go before degradation starts to occur, however it will be TINY! Even the BEST observer would not see it. Still, it is there.
By f/5, it would look to me like even the best of these eyepieces (the Plossl and Abbe)might indeed start to loose the ability to collect the light cone accuratly.
Royce, the Mirror maker used to advocate not going faster than f/7 for a planetary scope, but recently he has concluded that f/6 is perhaps possible. The ray tracing I just used as the basis of this response seems to agree with that. Still, I would venture to guess that if it is acceptable at f/6, the vast majority of observers would not be able to discern a difference at f/5.5.
However, past f/5, and the effects may start to become noticable to very discerning astronomers even using Plossls (the best in this respect according to the ray tracing)
If you are talking about off axis, this is HIGHLY dependent on the eyepiece, and the over-riding abberations will likely come from the telescope itself, so it doesn't really matter so much. It is almost impossible to make a really fast telescope without encountering severe coma or astigmatism (or both). The eyepiece will exagerate this, but at this point, why would it matter?
Regards.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
Edited by Eddgie (11/10/09 12:32 PM)
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starrancher
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/09
Posts: 613
Loc: Northern Arizona
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This is exactly why I stick to my Plossls . Did I mention that I love my Plossls ?
-------------------- LXD75 AR5
LXD75 SN8
Series 4000 Plossls
Misc. other stuff
Fort Rock , Az .
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2703
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Oh, and I mis-answered the question. The quesiton was When does the eyepiece become "Unusable." Clearly, the eyepiece might be "Usable" at speeds much faster than f/6. If the magnification stays low enough that the blur is less than one arc minute, then it would not be possible to see the effect.
Once the magnificaiton gets high enough though, the effects will be detectable. Once again though, it could still be "Useable."
So, from that perspective, the question does not really have an answer, but if the question is at what focal ratio does the eyepiece start to fail, then that would be dependent on the exact design, but it looks like past f/6 and all eyepieces are starting to loose contrast. So, past this point, the quality of the eypiece itself is less important. The design becomes more critical, and the nature of the target becomes more critical (Planetary observing starts to be effected).
So, with that respect, it is really impossible to answer the question unless one carefully defines "Usable", but for plaentary performace, f/6 seems to be the point were the eyepiece itself starts to affect the performance.
Usable though? Who knows.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
Edited by Eddgie (11/10/09 12:47 PM)
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Dragonwatcher
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 600
Loc: Kirkland, WA
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Quote:
I would say based on this that f/5 is too fast for all eyepieces to deliver the ultimate performance they are capable of.
F/6 would likley be about the fastest you could go before degradation starts to occur, however it will be TINY! Even the BEST observer would not see it. Still, it is there.
By f/5, it would look to me like even the best of these eyepieces (the Plossl and Abbe)might indeed start to loose the ability to collect the light cone accuratly.
Interesting. I have the TMB 92L which is similar to the widely-acclaimed TMB 92SS and both are f/5.5 triplets.
Anyone notice any problems with orthos or plossls for either of these telescopes? Unfortunately, I have had almost no good weather since getting my 92L. But I just sunk a good chunk of money in a ZAO 4mm so I hate to hear that it may not be optimized for this telescope. I do understand Ed is saying the visual degradation may not be discernible to the average person's eye.
-------------------- Jackie
TMB 92L
SV70ED for gragNrun
Orion 120ST
Benro C-357 tripod/Microstar mount
Quarter Hitch & Gitzo GT5531S
8SE mount/tripod for refractor use
Ethoses, Pentaxes, BGOs, Naglers, Pans, Sieberts, etc
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