John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 690
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Does anyone have a recommendation on surge protection? My observatory will be partially automated and I may not always be around to unplug the equipment in case of a storm. I'd like to protect power and ethernet lines. Thanks.
-------------------- John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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GeorgeDuke
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 1585
Loc: PARADISE! (So.Florida)
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Many of the newer UPS units also provide Ethernet protection. That seems like your best bet.
-------------------- George
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SkyShed POD XL-3
LX200GPS 203mm f10
StellarVue SV102ED2 Feathertouch Ser#0018
LXD75 GOTO with Orion 16" pier extension
Baader Hyperion 8mm ,13mm, 21mm + FTRs
2" GSO ED barlow, 2" SV Dielectric and Orion Prism Diagonals
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StarmanDan
sage
Reged: 08/27/07
Posts: 391
Loc: China Spring, Texas
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Might look into one of those whole house type surge protectors. It would protect the entire electrical system. Dedicated Cat 5 surge protectors would provide better protection than the ones built into most UPS's.
-------------------- "Starman" Dan Doyle
Texas Astronomical Society of Dallas
Central Texas Astronomical Society
8" LX200GPS w/ST80 guidescope, Canon 350D+DSI Pro
150mm f/8 Sky Watcher Refractor
10" f/4.5 Homemade Dob
RV-6 Criterion Dynascope
http://darcstar.wordpress.com
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1407
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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APC Protectnet - 1GB Ethernet surge protector
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 6549
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Besides using surge protection, it's a good idea to loop the cable before it enters the obsevatory as well as at the house. This will help with lightning strikes.
-------------------- Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M110 Doublet ED, AT 102Achro, ZS80FD 10th Anniv, ZS66SD, PST
CG5-AGT, EZ-Touch, Voyager
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com
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westom
newbie
Reged: 11/08/09
Posts: 2
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Quote:
Does anyone have a recommendation on surge protection?
Your question is answered by how surge protection was done even 100 years ago. Recommendations such as the UPS violate well proven principles AND do not even claim that surge protection in the numeric specs. You want effective protection. That means you discuss and connect energy someplace that is not destructive and that is outside the building.
Once a surge current has gotten inside the building, it hunts for earth destructively. Nothing stops surges - despite myths promoted on retails shelves. Your telco connected to overhead wires all over town suffers maybe 100 surges with each thunderstorm - and no damage. They also do not waste money on plug-in devices. They also use what has been so well proven for the past 100 years as to be standard even in munitions dumps.
Effective protection means surge energy is dissipated harmlessly in earth. A protector does not provide protection.
Protection is always earth ground. To provide protection, the protector is a connecting device. A device only as effective as earth ground. That means the protector makes a low impedance connection from every wire in every incoming cable, short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Low impedance means the wire to earth must have no sharp bends, no splices, not inside metallic conduit, etc.
Any protector without that dedicated ground wire (that means separate from all other wires) does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. Show us the numbers for that UPS that claims protection. It may list a few hundred joules. Will that few hundred joules stop destructive surges that are hundred of thousands of joules? Of course not. But that near zero number means it can claim "surge protection" in a sales brochure. As you see here, another therefore recommended it only because he saw a subjective phrase "surge protection". A subjective claim was sufficient to claim that UPS provides massive surge protection. See how scams get promoted?
Only the more responsible companies sell the 'whole house' protector with the always required and dedicated connection to earth. General Electric, Intermatic, Leviton, Square D, Keison, Siemens, and Polyphaser are but a few. The Cutler Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes for less than $50. What do the numbers say? One protector for maybe 100 electronics devices means the protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much for the UPS, APC, Belkin, or Monster Cable protector? Maybe $25 or $100 per protected appliance. And those protectors do not even claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.
First and most critical - earthing for the building must be upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code requirements. That is the surge protection. Then every incoming wire connects (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that earth ground either directly (coax cable) or via a protector (AC electric, phone).
But again, that is how it was done 100 years ago. Notice how your telco provides no phone service for four days while they replace their computer? Earthing a 'whole house' protector is that effective and that well proven.
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StarmanDan
sage
Reged: 08/27/07
Posts: 391
Loc: China Spring, Texas
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I agree. Grounding is your first defense against surges. However, being a PC tech and being in a rural town, I can tell you I have seen more damage done to a PC from a surge on the phone lines into the PC's modem than from any other source. Most telco lines are not surge protected going into the users home and are thus more vulnerable than the electrical which provides many more paths for a surge to take and benefits from having a ground path to dissipate to at the electrical box. At one time there was a thread about protecting observatories from lightning strikes and a very elaborate grounding scheme was described that appeared to be very effective.
-------------------- "Starman" Dan Doyle
Texas Astronomical Society of Dallas
Central Texas Astronomical Society
8" LX200GPS w/ST80 guidescope, Canon 350D+DSI Pro
150mm f/8 Sky Watcher Refractor
10" f/4.5 Homemade Dob
RV-6 Criterion Dynascope
http://darcstar.wordpress.com
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kohudson
super member
Reged: 01/21/09
Posts: 158
Loc: San Diego, CA
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I was at an observatory on Saturday night where the owner had connected his ethernet cable to a ethernet to fiber converter and then had taken the fiber output into a fiber to ethernet converter. Any surge would wipe out the ethernet to fiber converter but the fiber to ethernet converter and the computer, etc would be protected. Seemed pretty ingenious to me...
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1407
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
I was at an observatory on Saturday night where the owner had connected his ethernet cable to a ethernet to fiber converter and then had taken the fiber output into a fiber to ethernet converter. Any surge would wipe out the ethernet to fiber converter but the fiber to ethernet converter and the computer, etc would be protected. Seemed pretty ingenious to me...
Why didn't he just run fiber in the first place?
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kcgolden
super member
   
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 111
Loc: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Besides using surge protection, it's a good idea to loop the cable before it enters the obsevatory as well as at the house. This will help with lightning strikes.
Don't forget the drip loop.
Here's a link:
http://scorpiontheater.com/images/USCG_ShootHouse_Drip_Loop.jpg
This prevents water from running down the cable and into the hole in your wall.
-------------------- Kelsey
- Scope : Orion 80ED
- Mount : Atlas with EQMOD
- Main Imager : Meade DSI III PRO
- Guide Camera : Meade DSI PRO
- GuideScope : William Optics ZS66 "Patriot"
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kohudson
super member
Reged: 01/21/09
Posts: 158
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
I was at an observatory on Saturday night where the owner had connected his ethernet cable to a ethernet to fiber converter and then had taken the fiber output into a fiber to ethernet converter. Any surge would wipe out the ethernet to fiber converter but the fiber to ethernet converter and the computer, etc would be protected. Seemed pretty ingenious to me...
Why didn't he just run fiber in the first place?
The output from his cable modem or DSL modem was a normal ethernet cable - not a fiber optic cable. So he converted the electrical signal to fiber optic and then back to electrical again...
Ken
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westom
newbie
Reged: 11/08/09
Posts: 2
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Quote:
I agree. Grounding is your first defense against surges. However, being a PC tech and being in a rural town, I can tell you I have seen more damage done to a PC from a surge on the phone lines into the PC's modem than from any other source. Most telco lines are not surge protected ...
Unfortunately, when one knows only from observation, then junk science results. First, all incoming phone lines have a superior surge protector installed free by the telco. A 'whole house' protector located where their wires meet yours. A protector that has existed generations before the PC ever existed. A protector that every electrically knowledgeable tech would know of. Unfortunately, too many only know from what they see. Observation alone results in junk science conclusions. To have a fact, one must also learn the fundamentals.
Yes, many have seen a damaged modem. A surge ignore the telco 'provided for free' protector to destroy the modem - then stop? Of course not. Electricity does not work that way. First electricity (current) is simultaneously everywhere on a path from cloud to ground. That means a surge incoming on the modem is simultaneously outgoing on the modem. Where did that surge continue out of the modem? The modem did not stop a surge – contrary to popular belief.
How a modem is typically damaged: Lightning strikes AC electric wire down the street - highest wires on the pole. Does not strike lower phone wires. Incoming on AC electric. Through fuse box, into computer via AC mains, out via the modem, and to earth via phone lines. Since all phone lines have a 'whole house' protector, lightning found earth ground destructively via the modem. The typical failed part in that path is a PNP transistor that drives the off-hook relay.
What makes a surge easier to find earth via the modem? A plug-in protector. A protector too close to the computer AND without that always required 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. That protector can even contribute to modem damage.
Once permitted inside the building, a surge will find earth destructively via electronics. Most modems are damaged due to surges entering on a utility wire without protection – AC electric.
Why do so many not learn this? The more informed literally repaired modems by identifying and replacing damaged semiconductors. And needed more than observation to know anything, Damaged modems typically have a failed PNP transistor that drives an off hook relay. That transistor is a path from cloud to earth. Either the transistor fails shorted (modem causes the line react to a phone off hook for too long), or transistor fails open (modem cannot connect to phone line). Either way, typical error message is "No Dialtone Detected". Many modems damaged by direct lightning strikes and repaired by me are still functioning today because we required more than just observation. Either the surge is earthed before entering the building OR surge damage due to human failure is expected. That comes from knowledge well proven even 100 years ago.
All phone line have a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco. Often located in an NID box. But a protector that will only be as effective as the earth ground provided by the home owner.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which is why direct lightning strikes to the CO (about 100 per thunderstorm) never learn the entire town without phone service. Each line of defense is only defined by the earth ground – not by any protector. How good is each protection layer? How good is that layer’s earth ground. Plug-in protectors have no earth ground – therefore do not even claim protection in numeric specs. Each protection layer is only as good as and defined by its single point ground.
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 690
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Thanks for the great discussions so far! I think maybe I'm just going to be sure to unplug power and ethernet anytime the observatory is not in use for now. My fully automated system is probably at least a year away.
-------------------- John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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Restricted
journeyman
Reged: 08/21/09
Posts: 9
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I lost an automatic transfer switch circuit board for a standby generator by a ground lightning strike. The ATS was not on line. The spike came through the ground rod and wire and overloaded the board, charring it in several places. The electrician tech said that the only way to prevent a spike / surge is to either unplug the device or completely disconnect it, including the ground. On some hardwired devices, that is somewhat impractical, but it's the only 100% method to keep your devices safe.
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Kaizu
sage
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 342
Loc: Finland
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Not 100%, there is still a possibility of direct hit of lightning. Maybe 99,999999%. If your device size is 1m (3'), the direct hit happens once per million year (average in Finland 2003).
Kaizu
-------------------- Some thoughts are so wise that they don't make me laugh
http://www.kaiforssen.fi
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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Quote:
A protector too close to the computer AND without that always required 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. That protector can even contribute to modem damage.
Thanks, westom, for this interesting information. People *do* tend to place far too much faith in surge protectors.
One bit I've never understood, though, is the "less than 10 foot" requirement that you cite. From what little I know of the National Electrical Code, it requires a single-point earth connection for the entire house. So how am I supposed to meet the "less than 10 foot' requirement when my computers are in the far end of my house away from the ground rod?
-------------------- Terry (astrotrf)
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Posts: 690
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Can I also assume that just shutting off the switch of a surge protector wouldn't help? Just looking for a bit of convenience... I think for the Winter I'll just use the switch since there's almost never lightning in Wisconsin during the Winter.
-------------------- John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Bahtinov Focusing Mask
Empire Ranch Observatory
Iowa County Astronomers
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Snaproll
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 3824
Loc: Wisconsin
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Hi John. I don't have time to read through your whole thread, just want to offer something up.
I run my observatory off of a surge protected outlet. I can't "hardwire" the observatory legally, so I have a separate GFI circuit for it with an outdoor receptical which is the surge protector type. From there I use a heavy duty extension cord under the deck to power the observatory and a couple of surge protected power strips. I used a "constant use" weatherproof receptical cover over the receptical box. The nice thing about having it on a separate circuit is that if there are thunderstorms coming in I can just flip it off at the breaker panel.
Just some thoughts that may be useful for ya...
-------------------- -Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II
old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images
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