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xcy
super member
Reged: 05/15/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Europe
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How much should I expect to see with the Helios Apollo 22x85 instead of the 15x70?
Does the Helios Apollo 22x85 have any mechanical or optical improvements over the 15x70?
Helios Observation Binoculars
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14719
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Here's a thread 10 pages long you can read all about the 22x85
Comparing GO22x85, WO22x70, Tak22x60
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 3360
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Mechanically and optical i should expect no difference except the 22x85 sees deeper.
The latter is still on my wanted list
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Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12885
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Eye relief would be a major consideration for me if I were to splash out a lot of money on binoculars specifically and exclusively for astro use .
In addition to almost every other optical property that comes with them , I particularly appreciate the long eye - relief that the 32mm Plossl and 17mm Radian eyepieces from TeleVue provide .
I also like the fact that the company makes readily available , specifications of it's products that customers can TRUST to be ACCURATE .
Why is it that some Chinese manufacturers seem able to produce ( admittedly mediocre ) 15x binoculars with LASHINGS of eye - relief ( excuse the pun ! ) yet even the celebrated Fujinon 16 x 70 FMTSX and Zeiss 15 x 60 BGAT and more recently applauded " serious " higher magnification Chinese offerings appear to have been designed with the assumption that anyone interested in looking at the night through binoculars , who is prepared to spend at least three times , if not ten times as much as what the cheaper options available cost , must surely not need to wear glasses ?
Even my Helios 15 x 70 ( Orion Little Giant 2 ) cost about three times as much as Celestron Skymasters and it's countless clones , and it's eye - relief is a ridiculous 8mm. -- and that is STATED as if a FEATURE to be PROUD of ! :-)
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Mike Rapchak
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 568
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Kenny,
Excellent comment! I don't understand why companies manufacture binos with pitifully inadequate eye relief, either. I can perhaps see if it's a bino designed for terrestrial viewing. Still, one wants to be able to take advantage of the entire FOV without smashing their eyeballs against the glass.
As was made obvious here a year or so ago, I have a strong aversion to Chinese binoculars. I wish these companies would quit their foisting of substandard products that sell only because of their low price, much to the chagrin of many of their customers. IMO they should simply cease production of this entry-level "junk" and sell their premium products (like the Garret Signature line).
And yet, as you point out, there are premium Japanese binos like the Fuji 16x70 that essentially do the same thing. I may be mistaken, but I think that this inadequate-eye-relief problem is caused by the eyepieces. I think that such a bino should be supplied with an ocular capable of providing adequate eye reilef. Period. If not, don't make or sell 'em! Heck, my Vixen 16x80s have such eye relief (rated at 17mm) that I have to nearly fully extend the eyecups to get a proper view of the field. The 12x80 pair I owned previous was even moreso to where the ideal eye position was maybe 1/32-inch away from the fully-extended eyecups. Try holding a steady view with these! Of course it wasn't an issue when they were tripod-mounted. My point is that adequate - even more than adequate - eye relief can be readily provided. I just wish that all manufacturers would do so! 
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1589
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi folks,
Least not we forget that longer eye relief almost means more cost. This is simply due to different design criteria in the ocular lenses. Just my input, FWIW.
Best regards,
Dave.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I also like the fact that (Tele Vue) makes readily available , specifications of it's products that customers can TRUST to be ACCURATE.
Agree 1000%. Pretty radical idea, isn't it?
But in every company's defense, eye relief is not entirely trivial to define. It presupposes that the exit pupil is on a plane -- which it never is, especially for wide-angle eyepieces. And as Ed is fond of pointing out, all decent binoculars have eye lenses that are somewhat recessed. So if eye relief is measured from the lens, you need to subtract the depth of recess to find the usable eye relief.
Moreover, there's obviously a fair amount of leeway about how far away you can actually place your eye, which needs to be figured in as well. With some eyepieces, 5 mm in or out makes no difference. Others, you have to be at exactly the right distance to see anything at all.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 3360
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Eyerelief remains also a very personal thing.I can't really cope with a 32 mm plossl, too much eyerelief.
And about the Helios Apollo 15x70,(BA 8 series) many people find it a bit short in eyrelief whereas to me it is just perfect, even with eyeglasses..;
The 10.5x 70 has more eyerelief, it would allready be too much for me...
But I do agree with Kenny about his Helios Stellar, 8 mm is awfully short, too short, probably to anyone...
Yet, indeed specs about eyerelief are most of the time inacurate, and not eyerelief alone...and that is not a good thing and should not be!
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Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
Edited by F.Meiresonne (11/06/09 02:20 PM)
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3196
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
As was made obvious here a year or so ago, I have a strong aversion to Chinese binoculars. I wish these companies would quit their foisting of substandard products that sell only because of their low price, much to the chagrin of many of their customers. IMO they should simply cease production of this entry-level "junk" and sell their premium products (like the Garret Signature line).
Well, the lowest priced model in the GO SS line is the 10X50 HD. At $250 it's a bargain compared to the Fuji FMT SX 10X50. But I'd gusess the % of people wanting to carry 3.5 lb 10X50 around is pretty small. Even among the group obsessed with optics such as ours. Mounted you say. I may make the effort to mount a 5.5 lb 15X70 but don't want to bother with mounting binos lower than 12X. The GO 22X85 is an excellent bino. But it's also a 10 lb monster. You'll need to spend $$$ on a mount and tripod.
The ~$60 Celestron Skymaster 15X70 may be considered "junk" by some. I would consider another model if I am shopping for entry level 70 mm bino today. The chance of getting a good copy seems to be 50/50. However, I have read many postings from exited owners over the past few years.
I purchased a pair of Vintage 16X50 Japanese binocular earlier this year. They came in a gorgeous custom fitted brown leather case with red velvet lining. Mechanical construction is classic Japanese. Optical quality is very poor, eye relief non-existent. Took a chance buying them off auction because I thought premium case+ classic Japanese= quality optics. I was WRONG! I kept them for my vintage bino display. Maybe one day some one would pay over $100 just for the hard leather case.
I judge binoculars on their own merit, and how they fit my wants and needs, not the brand or country of origin. It would not be a surprise to me if production of some of the highly praised Japanese or European models have been switched to factories in China for sometime.
Importers are in business to make a profit. They market what the American consumer wants. My guess is lower cost Chinese models are out selling the GO SS, Oberwerk Ultra and Fujinon FMT SX by a BIG margin.
ERik D
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3204
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Quote:
Why is it that some Chinese manufacturers seem able to produce ( admittedly mediocre ) 15x binoculars with LASHINGS of eye - relief ( excuse the pun ! ) yet even the celebrated Fujinon 16 x 70 FMTSX and Zeiss 15 x 60 BGAT and more recently applauded " serious " higher magnification Chinese offerings appear to have been designed with the assumption that anyone interested in looking at the night through binoculars , who is prepared to spend at least three times , if not ten times as much as what the cheaper options available cost , must surely not need to wear glasses ?
As a first approximation, eye relief is inversely proportional to AFOV.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12885
Loc: Lancashire UK
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The AFOV of the humble Barska 15 x 70 ( nominally 66 degrees and not much less in reality ) is not much different from that of that of the Fujinon FMT SX , and one Barska I tried had plenty of eye - relief for me WITH glasses worn .
The AFOV of my Helios 15 x 70 is ( nominally ) a narrower 60 degrees ( actually even less ) yet that has only 8mm eye relief ( if that ) .
So , something is not adding up correctly here !
Kenny
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3204
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Hmm, then I've got no clue.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Eye relief depends on both focal length and design. For most designs, I recall eye relief being typically about 2/3 the focal length, as measured from the eye lens surface.
Because of the usual employment of objectives having the shortest possible focal length, if the magnification is to be higher than that delivering 6-7mm exit pupils the eyepiece must have a fairly short focal length. For instance, here are some eyepiece focal lngths I've encountered:
7X50 (7mm exit pupil)- 27mm
7X35 and 10X50 (5mm e.p) - 20-22mm
20X60 (3mm e.p.)- 13mm
25X100 (4mm e.p.)- 17mm
As you can see, eyepiece focal length generally scales inversely with exit pupil diameter, which makes sense because of the usually similar objective focal ratios of f/3.5 - f/4.
AFoV by itself doesn't have much bearing on eye relief, because wide angle eyepieces have (or should have) larger diameter eye lenses.
One way around the problem of limited eye relief is to use rather more expensive--and longer!-- designs which use a Barlow-like lens ahead of the field stop. This allows to use what is inherently a longer f.l. eyepiece with a concomitantly longer eye relief.
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Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12885
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Thanks Glenn .
It was nice to see the word concomitantly being used -- the first use of it , I believe , in the six and a half year history of this forum .
Kenny
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Solar B
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/28/07
Posts: 908
Loc: By Edinburgh , Scotland
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Yes Superb i had to look the word up in the Concise Oxford Dictionary,Adj from the Latin comitari going together,associated or an accompanying thing.
Brian
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" Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 3360
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Glad somebody explained the word...never heard it... 
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Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
20x80 Helios Stellar Binos
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Helios Nature sport plus
8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, baader ortho 12.5 and 9 mm
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