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BarrySimon615
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 1314
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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I just got finished reading thru a thread where the basic question is "What 100 mm binocular is good, yet cheap and will give me close to the full advertised aperture?" While the question is certainly worth asking, the thread that follows with plenty of good advice, gives me the feeling that we have all become spoiled. We expect quality at what can be argued is a ridiculously low price.
The thread got me curious as to what binoculars (or any other item today) would cost me when I was buying similar items back in the day when I was rebooting my interest in astronomy. For me that period happened to be in the late 70's with the purchase of a pair of Sears Discoverer Zoom 8 to 17x50 binoculars in 1977, a 3" f/16 refractor in 1978, the building of my 6" f/5 Jaegers refractor in 1978/79 and the purchase of a pair of Celestron 11x80 binoculars in 1979 or 1980.
Plugging some commonly paid prices from 1979 into an Inflation Calculator - see: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
and then changing the comparison year to 2009 will tell us that (on average) an item that cost $60 in 1979 would inflate to $178.49 in 2009 $60 is about what I paid for a pair of 7x50 Bushnell Sportview binoculars back then, and they were equivalent feature and quality wise to something that would cost us about $75 to $90 today. So binoculars based upon this one example are priced well below the inflation rate.
Another example would be something priced at $300 back in 1979, which was the approximate price I paid for the 11x80 Celestron binoculars, with inflation, that $300 becomes $892.43 today. Far more than what an equivalent quality pair of 80 mm binoculars cost today. Something equivalent to my pair would be $400 at best today.
Looking at this in the opposite directions, when one complains about $1000 being too much for a great quality pair of large binoculars today - would they complain as much when told that in 1979 dollars, the equivalent spend would be $336.16? A $200 investment today, which is about what one needs to spend give or take $20 each way for a mid-price pair of 10x50 binoculars (Nikon Action Extreme, Pentax PCF series, etc.) is equivalent to just $67.23 in 1979 dollars.
All in all astronomical pricing has stayed below the inflation rate due to several factors - competition, cheaper labor, and advances in manufacturing holding cost down. Perhaps there are other reasons as well. Overall, particularly for us over 50 guys who know what things used to cost, there is little to complain about in the cost of astronomical equipment today, including binoculars.
Barry Simon
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Wes James
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 3959
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You're absolutely right, Barry- and you'll note that I made the comment about quality being worth the price one pays for it. I always have believed that- and I always will. Many people fail to realize that it ends up costing one a lot more when you end up buying twice, because you got what you paid for the first time! Sometimes bargains- are... more often, they're not.
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3738
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Barry, Wes,
I was voicing the same sentiment in the "Time for more option?" thread while Barry was starting this one. Like many, I was surprised and excited when Chinese 25X100 arrived the US in 2002...at a fration of the cost of what I spent for my Japanese model. Then the talk of 100 mm Miyauchi clones for under $1K! Over time we learned that below a certain price point something had to give...
I have a pair of Leupold Olympic 12X50 roof prism. They are marked "China" in discreet small letters near the center hinge. Every bit as good as my Eagle Optics P Ranger(Japan) 8X32 Roofs, and nearly identical in appearance except for the size of objective end. To my surprise their image quality are noticeably better compared to a pair of Leitz 10X40 BA from the mid 1980s. I saw a pair of Leitz of the same vintage offered for sale for ~$650 last year. My Leupold and EO ranger are in the $350-375 price range. Purchased another EO 10X42 phase coated roof prism after the Leupold and EO ranger. They were made in China. I think the price was $169. Image was dim and resolution poor. I returned them after a weekend. Eagle Optics dropped that model from their line not too long after.
I heard a piece on NPR yesterday. iPhone is going on sale in China. Workers assembling the IPhone in Chinese factory for Apple work 12 hr days, in 100 deg F heat. Live in company housing packed 30 to a room. They are paid 70 cent per hr. Twice that for over time, but limited to 80 hrs per week. One of the workers interviewed said he feels like on Ox on a farm. Doing the same task over and over, day after day. If he quits there are 5 others from the coountry side waiting for a spot. Can we expect workers under the similiar conditions to take pride producing quality 25X100 we can buy for $199 in 2009? I think not.
I guess us "over 50" guys grasp that concept sooner. :-))
ERik D
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beachchairbill
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/06/08
Posts: 629
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I think we need to get back to Made in The USA for quality and and QC. I still have a problem with 14 point check poins as all vendors need to add a 15 point - the flashlight test through the objective lenses.
BB
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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The way folks here obsess over optics, and claim to love the sky, it's a wonder they are often unwilling to invest a week or two's pay in a piece. It's that important to me, anyhow.
How can you have discovered the larger universe, but only $100 worth? A "hobby"? Golly, excuse me, but I think the whole universe is, well, really important.
Ron
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Mike Rapchak
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 568
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Barry,
I'm glad to see you bring this topic up. I know that I've had a personal problem with it for the past three years since I purchased a pair of Chinese 25x100 binos for "only!" $340. This price staggered me as I was used to seeing 100mm binos selling for $1500-2000. In short, these binos were "junk" (defective).
The problem is the general "something for nothing" mindset. There is no such thing. It isn't price, it's quality. Buying this type/make of inexpensive bino is, simply, a gamble. I would assume that by now most members here would realize this. I guess that if folks want to play this kind of roulette, well, it's up to them. Personally I cannot see buying one of these products - mostly done mail-order -, waiting a few days, receiving it with excitement and high hopes of amazing views of the night skies, only to find out that it's "junk" (defective); then (pain in the butt) shipping it back in exchange for another pair, waiting another few days, only to find out that the second pair is "junk" (defective). Ad nauseum. Why folks insist on doing this is, other than the cheap price, beyond me. And don't anyone here read this as "vendor bashing" (as I've been accused of). If there's any "bashing" here it's toward the manufacturers.
My conclusion is that if you want quality - and consistent quality - you have to pay for it. IMO a good-quality set of 100mm binos should cost at least $800-1000. I've owned two pair of Vixen 80mm binos - a 12x80 and 16x80. The 12s cost $540 in late 2006; the 16s $560 in early 2007. To me they are more than worth their purchase price. Both pair were/are exquisite; the same exact quality, i.e., both "perfect out of the box". These binos are now retailing for over $700. Are they worth this price? IMO, yes. Because they were/are beautiful; both work exactly as advertised. The quality I paid for is there.
Yes, I was initially "spoiled" by low prices, but I quickly learned a hard lesson. Again, as with most any product, if one wants quality one has to pay for it. I would LOVE to see a high-quality pair of $300 100mm binoculars. But, IMO, this hasn't happened. There are good Chinese binos out there, but one must pay for them. The Garret Signature series is one example. So are the highest-priced Oberwerk offerings (I'd love to someday own a pair of the BT 100s). It's the inferior models that are mostly the problem. I think that all potential bino purchasers should boycott these products; do not buy them. Force the Chinese to make only the best product. I imagine that they are capable of producing such products. This way all bino viewers/astronomers will be fulfilled in their pursuits as a result of receiving a true high-quality instrument. I don't think that this is asking too much.
Mike Rapchak Jr.
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RichD
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 759
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Very true Mike and pretty much how I feel about the situation.
There will always be a market for lower end products however.
I still regret not splashing out on a pair of miyauchis when I bought my 100mm binos rather than going for the generic chinese ones I did buy. They have been pretty good, but guys like me buying cheap are the reason quality manuf. like Miyauchi went under.
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Clear skies
Rich
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edwincjones
Postmaster
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5945
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are we spoiled-well, yes and no
It comes down to us being willing/able to pay 25-50% more for that last 5-10% increase in quality.
but we do have a nice selection of optics available now
(I do wish we still had Miyauchi)
Edited by edwincjones (11/07/09 06:18 AM)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3934
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
When one complains about $1000 being too much for a great quality pair of large binoculars today - would they complain as much when told that in 1979 dollars, the equivalent spend would be $336.16?
No, I wouldn't complain; griping isn't an activity that I get much pleasure from. But I wouldn't buy them, either. Not then, not now.
For $300 (in today's dollars), I might just consider it, as an experiment, without extremely high expectations. And not unlikely, I'd be pleasantly surprised.
For what it's worth, I'd say that the average quality of entry-level binoculars in the 1960s, when I started to get interested in them, is no higher than it is today -- probably worse, if anything.
That was in the days when "Made in Japan" was still a label of contempt and derision.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
--------------------
Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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xmeecosmic
member
Reged: 10/04/09
Posts: 13
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There will always be people who "require the best" whether or not it is really necessary as in when luxuries become so-called necessities. That is truly being spoiled. F. Scott Fitzgerald had it right about "the green light, the orgiastic future...it eluded then...tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms (make that wallets) farther..."
Basta es Basta/Enough is Enough!
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