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Blind-Cyclops
sage


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 488
Loc: Kitchener, ON, Canada
Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new
      #3422881 - 10/31/09 11:38 PM

Hello Folks,

Has anyone made a Cassegrain - Nasmyth style Dob with the
EP at the end of the tube or on the top just in front of
the primary mirror?
If so, could we see some photos and some specs please...
mirror size, f#, tube length, EP heights. Thank you.

Also, is anyone thinking of one 20-24 inches?
Have any been motorized for tracking?
How good is the Alt-Az tracking?

Thanks,

--------------------
Clear skies...
Duncan

"Watch the skies, everywhere! Keep looking. Keep watching the skies!"
-- Closing line in movie spoken by newspaper report Ned "Scotty" Scott (Douglas Spencer) in the Sci-Fi movie
"The Thing From Another World", RKO Radio Pictures, 1951.

Antares (refractor) 127mm f/6.45. w/2-spd Crayford
Orion (Maksutov) 150mm f/12 w/2" EP adapter
Giro 3 (twin), 18" pier, EQ5 tripod.
Garrett 20x80mm, 410 head, 055 tripod.


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Luigi
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4940
Loc: MA
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3423202 - 11/01/09 06:17 AM

Yes. I've seen a number of these but don't have any links to information on them. Somewhat similar in concept are the JMI NTT telescopes. These use flat secondaries and tertiaries to lessen the overall length of the OTA and move the EP down the side of OTA. Another approach to lessen EP height is to mount the secondary at less than 45 deg angle incidence which positions the EP at an angle a bit lower down the tube.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 666
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Luigi]
      #3423251 - 11/01/09 06:59 AM

I think that is a great way to have a lower eyepiece .and a smaller CO/ easer than a ultra fast mirror .stray light may be a problem

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refractory
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 02/05/05
Posts: 1233
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3423302 - 11/01/09 08:05 AM

I've thought of doing this as a binoscope, with longer FL's.

Jess Tauber


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Blind-Cyclops
sage


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 488
Loc: Kitchener, ON, Canada
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: refractory]
      #3423600 - 11/01/09 11:32 AM

Thanks for the replies.
I'm sure many people are interested in a larger (Dob) scope without getting on a ladder
with the EP mounted on the top-side of the tube just in front of the primary mirror.
I think it is possible to make a 20-24 inch f4-5 scope with an OTA length under 48 inches (1000mm).
Would you like to get that in your car?

You may want to have a look at these links...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasmyth_telescope

http://www.planewaveinstruments.com/index.php?page=1

http://www.pinesoptical.com/

As well, I came across a great web site describing mirror glass. I found it very informative. Unfortunately, they are in England, however the info is the important thing.

** Luiqi -- The NNT site shows what seems to be a nice Dob. However, the EP up near the secondary may need a ladder for near/zenith unless you're over 6 foot.

** Refractory -- a bino this size with a lower EP level/height would be interesting!

One thing to think about -- the mount will have to be slightly taller if you plan on observing while standing.

Cheers...

--------------------
Clear skies...
Duncan

"Watch the skies, everywhere! Keep looking. Keep watching the skies!"
-- Closing line in movie spoken by newspaper report Ned "Scotty" Scott (Douglas Spencer) in the Sci-Fi movie
"The Thing From Another World", RKO Radio Pictures, 1951.

Antares (refractor) 127mm f/6.45. w/2-spd Crayford
Orion (Maksutov) 150mm f/12 w/2" EP adapter
Giro 3 (twin), 18" pier, EQ5 tripod.
Garrett 20x80mm, 410 head, 055 tripod.


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starquester
sage


Reged: 09/03/04
Posts: 469
Loc: Three Rivers, MI U.S.A>
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3424269 - 11/01/09 06:44 PM

If I built a big Dob Or a Cass scope I would have a
Nasmyth Focuser.

Here is one,


http://www.nas.org.au/Eddie%27s%20telescope.htm


Alan

--------------------
Alan D. Otterson
Windy Ridge Observatory
41-58.966N
85-43.069W

Alan Otterson

Founder&Owner

A Yahoo Observatory Group
Flip Top & Clamshell & Rubbermaid Observatories


http://tinyurl.com/yz9ckk

The Nikon D40 Astrophotography Group
http://tinyurl.com/5j8qw2
A Yahoo Astrophotography Group



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scopemankit
super member


Reged: 01/27/09
Posts: 137
Loc: south africa
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: starquester]
      #3424919 - 11/02/09 02:51 AM Attachment (23 downloads)

This is a 12" f16 Naysmith Dob cass, on an equatorial platform. It has since been converted to a GEM and is in my Cederberg dome.
If you want further details contact me.

--------------------
Chris
Cape Town


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pogobbler
member


Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 31
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: scopemankit]
      #3424971 - 11/02/09 04:27 AM

I've often wondered why this idea isn't more popular-- not with the average ATM, perhaps, but with the more skilled and experienced ATMers who aren't afraid to tackle some of the more complex optics out there. Seems a good solution for a very large dob mounted scope with a more reasonable eyepiece height.

My own dream "lottery" scope would be a very large one (say 40" plus), mounted dob style, with the light path coming out the altitude bearing for a fixed eyepiece, with the bottom of the scope extending beneath the observing platform so the eyepiece height works out right at seated eye-level. It would, of course, be computer aimed and driven, as well, with either the observing platform moving along with the scope.

Dare to dream, right?


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Blind-Cyclops
sage


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 488
Loc: Kitchener, ON, Canada
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3425075 - 11/02/09 08:00 AM

Hello Folks,

It seems a few well read amateurs, particularly ATMers, have taken up this mirror configuration idea and produced some "modern experimental models" which they seem to be very pleased with.

Hopefully, this thread will continue to grow as more people learn of it and post their photos and experiences with a Nasmyth Dob.

For those not familiar with the Nasmyth configuration and its inventor -- James Nasmyth (Scottish engineer), here are a couple links...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nasmyth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasmyth_telescope

http://www.naesmyth.com/bio/

** starquester -- Thanks for the link to another wonderful web site and a Nasmyth Dob and its maker.

** scopemankit -- Thanks for the info and photo of your great looking scope. The photo shows your scope very well and I can see a number of ideas ATMers can use. And thanks for offering to provide more advice and for folks to contact you.

** poqobbler -- Dare to dream -- certainly... creation, the universe, the wonders of nature, (dare I say women? / or men for the ladies reading this), and of course the lottery. (FYI, If you're a winner, I'm only asking for 10% -- grin -- and I'd be building one too!)

Please keep posting your experiences, photos and links for Cassegrain or Nasmyth configured Dobs / scopes, thanks.

Cheers,

--------------------
Clear skies...
Duncan

"Watch the skies, everywhere! Keep looking. Keep watching the skies!"
-- Closing line in movie spoken by newspaper report Ned "Scotty" Scott (Douglas Spencer) in the Sci-Fi movie
"The Thing From Another World", RKO Radio Pictures, 1951.

Antares (refractor) 127mm f/6.45. w/2-spd Crayford
Orion (Maksutov) 150mm f/12 w/2" EP adapter
Giro 3 (twin), 18" pier, EQ5 tripod.
Garrett 20x80mm, 410 head, 055 tripod.


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reiner
super member


Reged: 09/28/05
Posts: 100
Loc: Freiburg, Germany
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3425524 - 11/02/09 01:31 PM

Hi Duncan,

not a Nasmyth design, but rather a folded Newtonian termed Lowrider, which helps avoiding ladders for large Dobs.

Mine is a 22" f/4 with an eyepiece height at zenith of around 160 cm (64")



More here with links to others who have built similar scopes.

--------------------
Reiner

22" and 14" Dobs on EQ platforms


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salies
member


Reged: 08/10/09
Posts: 31
Loc: catalogne france
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: reiner]
      #3433023 - 11/06/09 02:27 PM

adéu , un anosther nasmith but is grégorien , not cassegrain!
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3269943/page/13/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
aid you! j' am enjoy for you

--------------------
sempre andavant ,mai morirem !


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salies
member


Reged: 08/10/09
Posts: 31
Loc: catalogne france
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: salies]
      #3433068 - 11/06/09 02:45 PM

and here my first version on the plateform equatoriale


--------------------
sempre andavant ,mai morirem !


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George N
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/19/06
Posts: 672
Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3434424 - 11/07/09 10:47 AM

Quote:



Has anyone made a Cassegrain - Nasmyth style Dob with the
EP at the end of the tube or on the top just in front of
the primary mirror?....




Here’s a link (http://tinyurl.com/ydk6x48) to a 16-inch Ritchey that won some prizes at Stellafane 2001. Go down the page to look at Bob Novak’s scope. Be sure to click on the movie link where the maker explains his scope.

I didn’t get a chance to look thru this scope, but friend who did reported that it was excellent. The mechanical performance was great from what I saw during the daytime.

--------------------
George N

Obsession 20
Optical Guidance Systems 10" F/9 R-C Cass
6" F/5 & 8" F/8 home-made Newts
MI-250 mount
SBIG STL-1301E CCD
Member, International Dark-Sky Association


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Blind-Cyclops
sage


Reged: 11/28/05
Posts: 488
Loc: Kitchener, ON, Canada
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? [Re: George N]
      #3434714 - 11/07/09 01:39 PM

Hello Folks,

** Reiner,
Thanks for the nice photo of your great folded Newtonian.
Yet, those do lower the height of the EP and you height and scope
seem to be made for each other. And thanks for the links so others
can enjoy more info.


** Sallies,
Thanks for the link to the other Gregorian style of Dob thread.

I believe, the Gregorian light-path allows the image to go past the
focal point before being reflected back down the tube off the
secondary mirror.

In the Nasmyth light-path, the image is reflected off the secondary
before the focal point is reached and the light goes back down the
tube to a third mirror to be reflected left or right through the altitude
shaft to the focuser and EP where the focal point is reached. This
makes for a far shorter OTA and allows the observer to stand on
the ground or sit in a chair which could be easily attached to the
telescope and pivot with the telescope through the azimuth.

In a so-called "modified Nasmyth" design, some ATMers have made
the light-path the same as the Nasmyth above, however the third
mirror is placed close to the primary and reflects the image up
through the rocker-box to the focuser and EP on the top of the
rocker-box.

If you make a mount slightly higher, then you can have the light-path
continue through the center of the primary mirror (Cassegrain --
SCT/MAK style) and have a regular diagonal on the end of the tube
(the bottom of the rocker box). This may be too low for Zenith
viewing unless the scope is mounted higher.

Thanks for the great links to some good information.


** George N,

Sorry George, the link didn't seem to work for me, even after a
couple attempts. Seems if Mr. Novak won a couple prises with the
scope, there must be something goos about it, or was it the
quality of construction?

* * *

Thanks for all the posts. Lets see if we can get a few more photos
showing the placement of the focuser and the EP. A description
of where the secondary and third mirrors are and how they are
mounted with some measurements would be great too.

Thanks everyone.
Cheers,

--------------------
Clear skies...
Duncan

"Watch the skies, everywhere! Keep looking. Keep watching the skies!"
-- Closing line in movie spoken by newspaper report Ned "Scotty" Scott (Douglas Spencer) in the Sci-Fi movie
"The Thing From Another World", RKO Radio Pictures, 1951.

Antares (refractor) 127mm f/6.45. w/2-spd Crayford
Orion (Maksutov) 150mm f/12 w/2" EP adapter
Giro 3 (twin), 18" pier, EQ5 tripod.
Garrett 20x80mm, 410 head, 055 tripod.


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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/21/04
Posts: 3077
Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3434754 - 11/07/09 02:11 PM

How about this type:
http://roykaelin.com/33901.html
I looked through Clyde Bone's Mersenne Nasmyth--low and high-power fields simultaneously--different!

--------------------


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salies
member


Reged: 08/10/09
Posts: 31
Loc: catalogne france
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #3435081 - 11/07/09 05:52 PM

adéu! for more informations : schema optique and formule for my gregorien!


--------------------
sempre andavant ,mai morirem !


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George N
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/19/06
Posts: 672
Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Blind-Cyclops]
      #3436681 - 11/08/09 04:12 PM

Quote:

......
** George N,

Sorry George, the link didn't seem to work for me, even after a
couple attempts. Seems if Mr. Novak won a couple prises with the
scope, there must be something goos about it, or was it the
quality of construction? .........





Try this link – second scope down: http://stellafane.org/post_conv/2001_conv/2001_all_scopes06.html

The video just worked for me.

The scope won a mechanical award. They did not have any optical judging in 2001. However, several of my friends tested the scope and found it fine. I assume that today most folks would buy an RC or other mirror set and add the third mirror.

--------------------
George N

Obsession 20
Optical Guidance Systems 10" F/9 R-C Cass
6" F/5 & 8" F/8 home-made Newts
MI-250 mount
SBIG STL-1301E CCD
Member, International Dark-Sky Association


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Mike I. JonesModerator
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1572
Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: salies]
      #3436683 - 11/08/09 04:14 PM

Salies,
Can you make your photo about 4X larger so we can read the print?
Thanks,
Mike


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salies
member


Reged: 08/10/09
Posts: 31
Loc: catalogne france
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3437489 - 11/09/09 04:32 AM

hello jones


--------------------
sempre andavant ,mai morirem !


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Kobayashi
sage


Reged: 07/10/08
Posts: 379
Re: Cassegrain - Nasmyth Dob? new [Re: pogobbler]
      #3438147 - 11/09/09 01:43 PM

Quote:

I've often wondered why this idea isn't more popular--



There are a few drawbacks to the Nasmyth Cassegrain design:

- The optics cost more than a Newtonian, because a hyperboloid secondary mirror (or concave elliptical mirror, in case of a Gregorian) is more expensive than a flat secondary mirror.

- The effective focal length becomes longer, because the secondary mirror magnifies the image. If you try to make a fast Cassegrain, the secondary mirror gets big.

- The mechanical tolerances become tighter. The secondary mirror position for a Cassegrain is much more critical than for a Newtonian.

- Collimation is more difficult.


I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but you do need to ask yourself if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

--------------------
-- Ken Kobayashi


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