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lionel
member
Reged: 08/12/07
Posts: 68
Loc: Delaware
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Edz said not to use unequal doubles at 1.4 times the Rayleigh limit, because a secondary 3-4 magnitudes dimmer than the primary will be hard to detect sitting on the first diffraction ring. What if the magnitude difference between primary and secondary is only 1-1.5?
In the double star forum I listed three unequal doubles at 1.3-1.8" separation with a magnitude difference of 1.1-1.4, that ought to be a challenge for your testing setup. They are in an attachment in the posting just above Edz's. Lionel
-------------------- Tak Mewlon 250
Powerstar C8
1960s Bushnell 60mm f12 refractor
Sphinx SXD
CG5-ASGT
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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I never knew you needed to be a rocket scientist to look through an eyepiece.
My wife once conducted a business meeting a few years ago and just before she walked into the meeting one of her direct reports ran up to her and told her not to use the phrase - you don't have to be a rocket scientist. When my wife inquired - why?, she was told - because half the people in that room are rocket scientists.
-------------------- SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14731
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Ed - just curious why use the Rayleigh and Dawes and no mention of Sparrow limit? just curious why the omission and the previous response that it is not relevant somehow. If it's not relevant then why the references to Dawes and Rayleigh? Just curious, the PSF used for all is the same, it's still apples and apples.
[dit] the web reference I cited specifically mentions it's relevance to "splitting close doubles" and the resolution with respect to spatial frequency... difference in planetary detail vs. galactic detail vs. close doubles... it's near the bottom of the page, seems to directly contradict your POV as stated.
As I mention above, and as is clearly shown in the diagrams in Licha's article, Sparrow limit is a measure that at best would show two stars barely elongated, not even peanut shaped. It is a limit that probaly is more useful to describe a separation at which the "detection" of two stars is just possible. ( I referred to Licha's article when I wrote mine in 2003).
Observing stars at Sparrow limit would not allow you to see any distinct parts of the diffraction pattern. The star disks would be approx 40-60% overlapped. You would have difficulty to tell it was two stars. You would not see two distinct first diffraction rings, they would be blended into one. Not only would there NOT be any space between the two stars, but there would be no distinguishable depth to the nocth between the two stars. In fact, that is the definition of Sparrow limit, the point at which there is no detectable drop in the intensity of light between the two components.
Frankly, Sparrow limit is not what is normally referred to when discussing the resolution limit of a scope (see my citations above). It is not indicative of seeing doubles separated, and it certainly is not what we think of for discussion of extended object resolution. Sparrow Limit is about what I saw with my small scopes 2-3 years ago when Porrima was at closest, approx 0.5-0.6 arcseconds. Sparrow limit provides very little detail in the image for scrutiny, unless of course the goal is just to find the minimum detection limit of the scope by observing first noticable elongation.
FWIW, Rayleigh Limit is the definition of the size of the Airy disk. An understanding of the Rayleigh Limit (the Airy disk formula) allows you to calculate the size of the Airy disk and the central visible disk for the scope in use and the target you choose. Having that information, you can even predict accurately where the secondary will be positioned with respect to the spacing of the light or dark rings. Neither Sparrow nor Dawes provides that information.
Both Sparrow and Dawes are way beyond the scope of what are the intended targets for Jim's observing session. Even Rayleigh limit stars are beyond the scope of his intent, however, at least Rayleigh limit provides an understanding of the size of the features you see in the diffraction pattern when you do look at double stars. Even when you choose stars that are wider than the Rayleigh limit, although the separation between them varies with your choiceof stars, each of the individual diffraction patterns dimensions are still based on the Rayleigh limit (the Airy disk formula).
Understanding the dimensions of the Rayleigh limit is like having a ready made measuring micrometer in view in your scope. I trust you would understand how useful that might be for the purpose of quantifying differences in resolution.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Luigi
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 4938
Loc: MA
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EdZ,
We'll have to agree to disagree. I understand afocal systems, and an OTA and an EP taken together form an afocal system; angle in vs angle out. The OTA and the EP themselves are focal devices. That is, they work on a real image. The OTA creates the real image, and the EP works on that real image to create a virtual image at infinity that is examined by the eye. The concept of the linear image scale is central to AP, where you need to know how big an object is gong to be on you sensor, usually measured in mm. The concept of using an EP to examine and qualify that image is certainly central to the use of bifilar micrometer EPs used in astrometry. Here the linear micrometer readout combined with the focal length of the OTA determines the angular size/separation of objects.
My point is simply this, to optimally test an EP, it is best to produce a challenging real images with which to test it. A real image with the finest scale detail and one with subtle shadings will be best. Select and OTA and objects that produce this.
As mentioned, (and cited from Telescope Optics) the size of the finest detail in a real image is the Airy disk and its linear size is only a function of f/#. If uou want to produce very fine detail to test the EP, use a fast OTA. If you want to ensure that the detail is limited by the OTA's resolution and not seeing? Use a small scope. A fast small scope will produce a real image with the smallest detail with which to evaluate EP performance.
A scope that produces a big blurry real image (think unequillibrated 10" SCT in poor seeing) won't be much of a challenge for the EP.
-------------------- 17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4345
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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"I never knew you needed to be a rocket scientist to look through an eyepiece."
Wait...uh Steve...you mean that you're *not* a rocket scientist?
How'd you get in here...
SECURITY! WE HAVE A BREACH IN THE EYEPIECES FORUM!
Seriously though, since we've established that you don't really have the credentials to be using all of that fine gear, you may as well send me your ZAO-IIs, TMB Supermonos and your TEC.
I'll make sure they're up to snuff and tell you all about what I see through them with a trained eye. Heck, I'm such a good pal I might even draw a picture or two for you. 
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
Loc: The Garden State
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Quote:
Wait...uh Steve...you mean that you're *not* a rocket scientist?
How'd you get in here...
Jim
I'm a...........nuclear physicist, yah, that's the ticket, a nuclear physicist.
-------------------- SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA
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Svezda
sage
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 260
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
In practice the quality of an eyepiece is easy to determine based on how clearly it shows dim stars at the magnitude limit of the telescope. That's basically what happened last year and it was a good test. Find the dimmest possible star with eyepiece X - if Y finds a dimmer one or pulls in X more easily, it is almost certainly a better eyepiece in an objective sense. For some eyepiece pairs it will be no contest - for others a lot of X/Y back and forth will be needed. In any case it's a completely objective criterion and only needs a good high contrast scope and dark skies to test.
The complication is individual observer's eyes, so I would think you would make up a magnitude chart of a densely packed field down to 14th magnitude or so and let each observer find his own test objects, e.g. in the region of Orion's sword and belt. You also have there B33 as an arbiter of contrast.
-drl
Very good point that's hard to argue against - if one ep shows fainter stars than another, all other things being equal, it is a better ocular. If one shows stars not as faint but has other advantages such as huge AFOV then that can offset seeing less faint stars. For me, though, this would be my criterion of choice. It also implies superior sharpness because one ep could hardly show fainter stars than another unless it had superior sharpness (and likely better contrast as well).
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kaaikop
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 07/13/08
Posts: 766
Loc: North of the Montreal nebula
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-------------------- Benoit, RASC Montreal
-C9.25 on EQ6 Pro - C6/ED80 on Portamount
-TV Plossls, Radians, Nags, Pans, UO Orthos.
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Svezda
sage
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 260
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Thanks for your friendly comment, monsieur. I'll be sure to take it into account when I read your comments or posts.
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kaaikop
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 07/13/08
Posts: 766
Loc: North of the Montreal nebula
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Svezda, I am sorry, I was not bashing at your comment in particular, but rather at the direction this thread was going...
I guess I'm a little frustrated by a solid month of cloudy skies and no observing... Didn't mean to be rude to anyone in particular
-------------------- Benoit, RASC Montreal
-C9.25 on EQ6 Pro - C6/ED80 on Portamount
-TV Plossls, Radians, Nags, Pans, UO Orthos.
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Svezda
sage
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 260
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Svezda, I am sorry, I was not bashing at your comment in particular, but rather at the direction this thread was going...
I guess I'm a little frustrated by a solid month of cloudy skies and no observing... Didn't mean to be rude to anyone in particular
I think it was very easy to make this mistake(to think that you commented that I was a boring poster) since you actually quoted my comment and then added 'zzzzzzz' instead of simply making a new comment of your own. It is a lesson to me not to do this same thing accidentally myself. I'm glad it wasn't me who put you to sleep.
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BillP
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Quote:
Awwww, Pegster, what's an extra 45x among friends? 
Seriously, though, I am thinking we can easily settle on 10 5mm eyepieces for this ... If we omit 4mm, we lose the ZAO-II. I would really like to have the ZAO-II square off against the 4mm TMB Supermono and perhaps the 3-6mm Nagler Zoom set to 4mm. I have a 4mm Meade Research Grade Orthoscopic and 4mm University Abbe Orthoscopic (or 4mm TMB Planetary) that could round out the 4mm set.
Jim, Why don't you just run the 4mms and the 5mm seperately? So have two competitions going in parallel. You can still evaluate it as if it were one and rank them all as a single set, then afterwards seperate the 4's from the 5's keeping their relative positions to each other within their respective groups for the new group-specific ranking. This way you can get the ease of one ranking method and keep everyone happy about any difference from magnifications.
As far as what difference would 45x make? Well it will of course allow you to pull in fainter magnitudes. How much? Using the calculator here, for the TEC 140 under Mag 6 skies with it set to "Good" Seeing, the 4mm EP will get you down to a Mag 14.0 star whereas the 5mm EP will get you down to a Mag 13.8. So you get a 0.2 Mag advantage with the 4mm.
So from a theoretical standpoint, obvious that the 4mm will have an advantage and feel it would be best to run the final rankings as 2 sets for each FL seperately. However, from the practical standpoint I would also like to see the results of both sets together as if I'm making a purchase decision and the ease of catching a dim star is what I'm after, then the results might swing me to a particular single purchase. What would be interesting as well, would be if a 5mm EP catches the dimest star and a 4mm doesn't. This would concern me a little and make me wonder if the contrast or througput of the 4mm is a little underpar as a possibility.
So bottom line is that I think showing the ranking results both ways is really benefitial for different reasons. I would advocate running the comeptition as is ranking the entire group as one, then displaying three sets of data, 1) the combined group's ranking, 2) the 4mm-only group's ranking, and 3) the 5mm-Only group's rankings. So you'll have the Grand winner, then the 4mm winner and the 5mm winner, and people can gleen from the 3 data sets what they need.
-------------------- Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...
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LDb
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 533
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
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Hi Jim
Would you like to borrow my 4mm Brandon? Be happy to send it on to you for inclusion if you like.
Don Yeier made it for me around 1990 from the original old optics they had in storage.
Let me know.
Best regards, and clear skies,
Howard
-------------------- 10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",12mm,16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm (yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Double set for binoviewing
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm
Edited by LDb (11/08/09 01:51 PM)
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4345
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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I would love to include a 4mm Brandon in the mix (and I know the secret Brandon handshake, and will likely be buried with my set), but...if we put another hard-to-get 4mm in the mix, we end up with only 7-slots for easily obtainable 4mm units.
Here's what I'm thinking. We'll do the test with ten units; two perhaps hard to get but widely regarded as the "class of the class" and the rest pretty much available off-the-shelf. Once the ink is dry on that comparo, I would be delighted to do a follow-up where I take a couple of the best from the test and match them up in similar testing to some other 3.5mm to 4mm eyepiece "exotica" that weren't featured.
To Bill P's point, I think we'll save 5mm units for another day and perhaps some broader testing including planets, the Moon and some transmission comparisons using an open cluster.
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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LDb
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 533
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
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Hi Jim,
OK - no problem, Let me know anytime and I'll be happy to send it on for your insightful analysis. Typical Brandon in all respects from my experience and certainly the ~3mm ER is short but, the view is all Brandon. I must also say that I really like the results from an 8mm Brandon in the Dakin 2.4X Barlow. Very nice indeed.
Anyhow -- I'll send it when you'd like to play with it.
Looking forward to your World Cup results.
Howard
-------------------- 10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",12mm,16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm (yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Double set for binoviewing
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm
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Richard Low
super member
   
Reged: 11/27/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Singapore
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I just got my 4mm Brandon last week but it has clouded since.... so I would be really keen & looking forward to see how it compares with the rest of the 4mm eyepieces. Btw, whats the secret handshake?
I would also suggest to include the Pentax XP 3.8mm in your turret, which imo, to be comparable & slightly edged out my Supermono 4mm in some categories. I have not compared with my ZAO-II 4mm yet.
-------------------- Richard Low
Minolta Activa7x35w, Pentax8x40PCFwp2, Nikon Monarch10x42, VixenBT80M-A, DenkII-PxS
PST, SV-F80, 4.5"Starblast, C5, 6"f/8 refractor, Mewlon210, 11"f/5AstroSky, 15"f/4.5dob(building)
XWs, XPs, XOs, ZAO-IIs, Supermonos, TV nag/pan/rad/plos
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leonard
sage
   
Reged: 10/19/07
Posts: 218
Loc: West Virginia
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Hello Luigi ,
>>>>>As mentioned, (and cited from Telescope Optics) the size of the finest detail in a real image is the Airy disk and its linear size is only a function of f/#. If uou want to produce very fine detail to test the EP, use a fast OTA. If you want to ensure that the detail is limited by the OTA's resolution and not seeing? Use a small scope. A fast small scope will produce a real image with the smallest detail with which to evaluate EP performance. <<<<<<
I always had the idea that the size of the Airy disk was determined solely by the diameter of the objective and that focal ratio had nothing to do with it. A 4 inch f10 and a 4 inch f5 will have the same size Airy disk . Is this not true ????????????
Thanks , Leonard
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3941
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Same size at prime focus but different image scale. So with a given eyepiece, the Airy disks will appear the same size to the eye, but a given double will appear farther apart in the larger scope.
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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leonard
sage
   
Reged: 10/19/07
Posts: 218
Loc: West Virginia
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Hi Mike ,
I can only speak to visual as I know nothing about astro photography . I need to understand it in simple terms or I never will . Two refractors both 4 inchs , one F10 one f5. Using the same magnification in both , the Airy disk should be the same size in the image . If thats true to me it means the 4 inch objectives form a Airy disk the same size in each. This may be where I am having a problem understanding . If the above is NOT true then it points to my misunderstanding . It would mean the Airy disks formed by the two scopes are of different size and that would give me my answer . I understand the larger scope will show a smaller Airy disk therefor the double will be a cleaner easer split as the Airy disks are smaller .
So am I correct or not ??
Thank you , Leonard
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14731
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Two refractors both 4 inchs , one F10 one f5. Using the same magnification in both , the Airy disk should be the same size in the image . If thats true to me it means the 4 inch objectives form a Airy disk the same size in each.
key point is using same magnification in both, YES they will appear exactly the same in both scopes.
But as Mike points out, "with a given eyepiece"...It is only when you use the "same eyepiece" in both scopes that it will appear larger (read wider) in the f/10 scope, and that is entirely due to magnification. The Airy disks will still appear identical (in angular) size.
Under no circumstances can you make an Airy disk appear larger (in anngular size) in one 4 inch scope versus another 4 inch scope.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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