blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1433
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Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
I know that I started this thread with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement. I thnk the ST8300 is a good deal too.
However, I am concerned a lot with the delayed release of the 8 position wheel and the lack of pricing and availablility of the 36mm filters at this time. No one seems to know when they will be available or how much they will cost or even which filters will be available. 
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
Hope that this thread has not caused problems or raised eyebrows. I just want to be up front with everyone.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying the SBig, but rather trying to explain why I will probably not buy it.
The OSC camera would be a better buy really and if I was in the market for one, then the ST8300 would be a great choice, no filter and wheel issues. 
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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Vassilis
member
Reged: 06/11/09
Posts: 28
Loc: Athens, GREECE
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I am on the same train (see the other thread..). Though from the begining of my search no 1 option was (and still is) Apogee with Alta U8300 and that great wheel of them that can take 9 50.8 filters (unmounted) or 7 square. That means that the investment in wheel and filters can accomodate your future needs also and that makes a financial (???) sense. You can even go for seven square for a few more dollars (Baader). I am still thinking on it.... It depends on another completelly irrelevant thing. That is if and how fast I can sell my other OTA... :-)
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Apo Refractor from Ohio (on order)
CCD from California (on order)
EQ6 Pro
Canon 40D
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1433
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Hi Vassilis,
I can see your logic. But I doubt very much that I will need more than 7 filters. RGBL, HA, OIII, SII should do everything I want to do. Plus I am worried about weight too. The weight of the ML8300 and CFW-2-7 will be close to 5 lbs. That is about all that I want to try to lift with my focusing system.
Have you read the paper by Richard Crisp comparing the FLI and Apogee, looks like the FLI has lower noise at the same temperature and download time is 4 times faster?
Blueman
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14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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I've never used an SBIG camera, so I'm a little confused. Is there a reason one wouldn't just use a standard 2" filter wheel with the SBIG? I know the idea is to save money by using smaller proprietary filters, but the argument for future compatibility of a 2" wheel makes more sense to me as well.
So does SBIG do something different on their nose-piece that forbids use of standardized threaded attachments? Or is it a matter of cable consolidation needs (you want the filter wheel to plug into the camera). If it's consolidation, then any camera/filter wheel combo will be somewhat proprietary - unless one sticks with the same ccd manufacturer in future upgrades.
I suppose that's just the wheel though, the filters can be removed and placed into another wheel... Hmm, feeling silly about all the 1.25" filters I've collected now. Should have planned my eventual upgrade from the beginning I suppose.
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-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1433
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Hi Zmass,
The situation is rather complex though it seems simple enough.
There are many filter wheels on the market that could probably be fitted to the camera with T-Thread adapters. But some of them will not work in CCDSoft, which is my imaging software.
The ST402 body that the ST8300 is based upon, is set up to accept the CFW-9 or 10 filter wheel, which only uses 1.25" filters. The FW-2 is an SBig 2" filter wheel that was built for the STL series and can be adapted, with a special adapter that SBig will be making some time next year.
Yes, it would also be nice to be able to plug the wheel into the ST8300 camera, it has a special receptacle for that, but you will have to wait until there is an available wheel to plug into it.
The 1.25" filters work for a lot of chips, they are not going to be obsolete anytime soon. But a chip as big or larger than the 8300 will require 2" filters or 36mm will work for the 8300, but not for larger chips.
Yes, it might be a good idea to plan ahead if you intend to stay with photography, it might pay in the end by having stuff that is able to be used with upsized cameras.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8681
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
I know that I started this thread with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement. I thnk the ST8300 is a good deal too.
However, I am concerned a lot with the delayed release of the 8 position wheel and the lack of pricing and availablility of the 36mm filters at this time. No one seems to know when they will be available or how much they will cost or even which filters will be available.
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
Hope that this thread has not caused problems or raised eyebrows. I just want to be up front with everyone.
I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying the SBig, but rather trying to explain why I will probably not buy it.
The OSC camera would be a better buy really and if I was in the market for one, then the ST8300 would be a great choice, no filter and wheel issues.
Blueman
Since I'm on the list for a OSC version, filter wheels are moot so I'll stick with what I consider the imaging bargain of the year. For me, it's just fine.
David
--------------------
Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3573
Loc: New Mexico
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I'm curious to see some first impressions on the ST8300. I'm in the market for a new CCD, and was considering the QHY8, but if it's everything it's talked up to be, I might want to spend the extra $$ on the ST8300 instead. Looks slick and I understand it works with certain SLR lenses out of the box? That's slick.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 1433
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Hi David,
I agree with you completely, the OSC version of the ST8300 is the best deal of all.
Blueman
--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
AT 8" RC
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
WO 80mm f/6 APO Televue .8 focal reducer
SBig ST2000xm with CFW-9 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 filters RGBL
Baader HA,O-III, H-Beta, S-II Filters
Losmandy G-11 Gemini Auto-guided
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SGT500
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/03/06
Posts: 2922
Loc: Ny
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i wonder if the Orion 2" motorized filter wheel would work with this camera. orion has some 2" LRGB filters that are reasonably priced
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-Sal
AstroTech Ritchey Chretien 8"
Williams Optics Zenithstar 80
Orion Atlas Eq-G
Hap Griffin Modified Canon Eos Xs (1000D)
My Astrophotography Gallery
My Sketch Gallery
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Yes it would Sal, The Orion filter wheel attaches via T-Thread and the ST8300 presents a T-Thread on the nose piece.. they would mate together fine.. And yes, that would be one of the cheaper options for filters. The VERY cheap option would be the Orion manual 2" filter wheel and LRGB filters.. Or the Astronomik Filter Drawer setup.. any of those options would suffice.. Especially considering there is no set date for the SBIG 36mm wheel and filters....
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Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Guillermo
newbie
Reged: 09/18/07
Posts: 4
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Quote:
Ah, I just can't decide, I want both! I put in an order a few days ago for a color version, but I have always preferred Mono for the sensitivity, narrow-band and editing capabilities
I would discourage you from buying a color version if your intention is to get the full resolution of the monochrome version.
I personally ordered the monochorome camera and I intend to use the st8300 for luminance and my Canon XSi camera for the RGB. Let's see if it works.
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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The Color Sony Sensor (ICX-453) used in many brands now, will out perform the 8300 OSC.
You will be going backwards if you go for the 8300 color.
There is nothing in the color sensor range that competes with it on a domestic level.
You will have more noise (Dark, etc), smaller footprint for starters.
You may want to look carefully at the specs of each.
But in the end, its your money, and what ever makes you happy, you should stick with it.
Edit : Does anyone have any info as to where the cameras will be made ?.
Theo.
Edited by Gama (11/07/09 09:40 PM)
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David Pavlich
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 8681
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA 30.22 X 90....
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Quote:
Hello,
Right now im a DSLR imager but i think this camera is going to bring me over to the dark side. muhaha 
but in all seriousness, i was brought up thinking that you get what you pay for. how true might that be with this camera. would i be sacrificing anything really by getting this instead of the Apogee 8300? the SBIG is just about half the price of the Apogee. I know some might think that the filter wheel is a disadvantage but honestly i wouldnt care about 36mm filters.
I guess basically what im asking is would i regret buying the ST-8300 instead of saving up more for something like the Apogee 8300?
thanks for any help
-Sal
Hey Sal...from what I gather, for the reduced cost you get a camera that is using a tried and true case that's already available so there's no cost for tooling or for a fancier case. You don't get a guide chip and you don't get dual stage cooling. 7.7 second full frame downloads seems reasonable. The camera has a shutter.
It seems, however, that the wait for the yet to be produced 36mm filter wheel could be a sticking point. Or, since it's t-thread equipped, you could use a different brand. SBIG said that Astrodon was going to produce 36mm filters.
Anyway, it still looks like the imaging bargain of our time. Can't wait to get mine!
David
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Proud Member; PAS NOLA,
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research..."
A. Einstein
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lawrie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/31/06
Posts: 1744
Loc: Okanagan Valley
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Quote:
The Color Sony Sensor (ICX-453) used in many brands now, will out perform the 8300 OSC.
You will be going backwards if you go for the 8300 color.
There is nothing in the color sensor range that competes with it on a domestic level.
You will have more noise (Dark, etc), smaller footprint for starters.
You may want to look carefully at the specs of each.
But in the end, its your money, and what ever makes you happy, you should stick with it.
Theo.
You may want to rethink these statements, with the thought, why is almost every camera maker coming out with a camera using this chip, including the QHY series.
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Clear Skies
Lawrie
Ultima 8
Atlas EQ-G
ZenithStar 80 FD
DSI Pro - Pro II
Canon 350D
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ZMass
sage
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 269
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The Sony 485 and the Kodak 8300 sensor are pretty different. Sony has much larger pixels, larger field of view. The two chips are different enough in format that a direct comparison really isn't all that useful. Given an equal performance from each chip, they would produce very different images on the same scope.
I don't see the switch from one of these sensors to the other as a very big change, but weather it's an upgrade or downgrade really depends on your other equipment and imaging goals. It does seem like a rather expensive sideways move though. (Assuming OSC to OSC, not mono).
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-Zeke Mass
Encinitas, CA
6" Custom Newt on CG5
CCD Labs Q285M (Qhy2 Pro)
ST-80 guide-scope with DSI Pro
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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Yep, Zeke has a great point.. I have the Orion SS Pro, the only reason im changing cameras is to pursue a very different imaging path... NB wide field imaging compared to my previous moderately long RGB imaging that I preferred, for the longer focal length, the colour sony sensor was the better option... Now that I'm wide field and narrowband imaging, the mono 8300 sensor is a much better choice for me.. I'll post direct comparison shots on here when I get the ST8300... I have a shot of Eta Carine done with the sony sensor, 4x25min @ 7nm Ha.. When the ST8300 arrives this will be my first image... same scope, mount, guiding setup, same site, just different cameras...
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Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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Gama
Vendor (Gama Electronics)
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 967
Loc: I come from the land downUnder
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Alex, the first thing you will notice, is it will be sharper as long as your seeing is good.
The smaller pixels are great for small F/L scopes, packing more detail pershot.
Using my 8300M produced some clear and sharp shots on my 4" refractor. As pointed out by Alex, there is no point comparing these sensors with others. They each have there niche, and are different in many ways.
Theo.
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AlexN
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/09/08
Posts: 979
Loc: Brisbane - Australia
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My seeing is usually around 2 FWHM or there abouts.. with the Orion I was getting 3.35 Arcsec per pixel, with the 8300M It will be something like 2.25 arcsec per pixel. I should, as you say, see a sharper image for starters, not to mention a lot stronger data in narrowband shots.. rather than having only 1 in 4 pixels capturing photons through the Ha filter, I will now be catching light on every pixel..
So very excited.
--------------------
Apogee Ortho-Star LOMO 80/480 APO
WO ZS70ED
HEQ5 Pro + EQMOD
Astrodon NB Filters
Orion SS Pro 2
SBIG ST-8300M on order.
QHY5
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remuscj
member
Reged: 04/05/06
Posts: 97
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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had the ST2000XM, just placed the order for the ST8300. It would probably put my old Nikon fixed lenses back on the imaging palette once again, and do good for the Gran Turismo (about 1.81arcsec per pixel).
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Remus
www.celestialportraits.com
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Takahashi TOA130F
Takahashi E210
Takahashi CN212
Astrophysics 130EDFGT
Pentax 75SDHF
Vixen FL80S
Celestron 5.5 Schimdt
Questar 3.5
Losmandy G11
Vixen Atlux
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Howie_in_AZ
member
Reged: 09/03/09
Posts: 12
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Quote:
Hi all,
Well, the more I have thought about this the more I am leaning toward buying the FLI ML8300 rather than the ST8300.
...
But, after looking at some test data that Richard Crisp has made available, I realise that as hot as it is here in the summer, I think I need the extra cooling of the FLI. The area you are in will dictate whether this is the case for you too. It is very hot in the summer and nights can be very warm or even hot. SO, 36c might only get my 0c to -10c
on some nights and this might not be adequate.
The other issue of whether to invest in 36mm filters or just go ahead and buy 2" filters that will work with about anything, has begun to sink in and my feeling is that I should just invest in the 2".
I'm not sure where you're located, but summers in the Phoenix metro area (even if one is ~35 miles outside of Phoenix) are still in the 90-100F range, so I'll definitely be going FLI. I, too, didn't like the idea of having 36mm filters, although I'm wondering if the 50mm filters will cover some of the other sensors that make me drool and my checkbook feel inadequate.
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