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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 730
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The proliferation of almost universal go-to among GEMs that have no setting circles raises the question of obsolescence.
Consider at one end the Vixen Super Polaris mount. It has been in use for nearly thirty years and is probably pretty good for another thirty. The electronic paddles didn't last too long, though, and many of us had to buy new motors to get new paddles. But at least the Great Polaris system was compatible.
Now consider the LXDs and ASGTs and SVPs. How long can one reasonably expect these systems to work and be maintainable?
Consumer reports publishes a list once a year of how long people expect washer/driers, microwaves, etc. to last. I remember reading that the average expectation of a microwave was 7 years.
How long do you think your mount will be usable?
My G11 and my AP900 and Super Polaris seem to me that they will last decades with proper care, and may outlast me. None of my systems is go-to. I don't know how long I expect my Argo Navis unit to last. It seems very robust. One of the things I like about the G11 is that it has spawned a vast user community so if Losmandy closes its doors there is likely to be someone making some parts. Other parts of the mount are almost bullet proof, on the stepper version the electronics are bolted to the mount and of very high quality, if not as sophisticated as one might like.
My Optical Craftsmen mount is 40 years old. I'd like to say its in perfect order but I haven't had it long enough. I did get it set up though and swing the tube around. Not much there to break. It's got setting circles.
Some of the mounts, if the OEM controller goes, take plug-in lap top type systems which will probably be usable for a long time.
So, some of the mounts currently on the market look to me like they'll be around for decades. The ASGTs, SVPs, and LXDs I'm less sure about. Because of their popularity, they are surely the "modern equivalent" of the old GEMs of teh 1960s.
What mounts to you think will take a lickin' and still be tickin' in thirty years?
What GEM mounts are like microwaves and will have to be chucked when motors or electronics fail? (and, in a special category, which ones should be chucked new in box!)
regards
Greg N
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"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9050
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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I expect my mount to be a pallbearer at my funeral.
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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Glenn Harvey
member
Reged: 06/30/09
Posts: 11
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I have a 15 year old Meade DOB. I willed it to my daughter. On the other hand, I've about lost my patience with my 3 1/2 year old LX-75. It's been one thing after anohter.
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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I tend to use a mount for 2 - 5 years then retire it. The mount is still perfect but I'm ready for something new by then.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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hfjacinto
Almost got me
Reged: 01/12/09
Posts: 2080
Loc: Union,NJ
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I have the GC5 and LXD 75 and if they make it to 5 years I will be happy, if they make it to 10 WOO HOO. Once they die I will try to get it fixed, a hand controller and/or motor can't be too much if it is fixable I will try to fix it unless fixing it costs more than 50% of a new mount. You have to weigh your options, in my mind when I have to spend more than 50% to fix something than it is not worth it, it might be better just replacing it. My current thinking is that if one mount goes, I will just use the other and if both go, I will get a better mount like (GCM)
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C9.25 ASGT 9*50 MM Finder,FT Focuser & 2" Diagonal
Meade LXD 75 6 Inch SNT w 9*50 MM Finder
5,6,9,14.5 MM Zhummel Planetary EPs
13,17,21,24,31,36 MM Baader Hyperion
6.7,8.8 MM Meade UWA & 11 MM Nagler T6
Planetary, OIII and Narrowband Filters
Thousand Oaks Dew Control w Kendrick Heaters
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 730
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So if you spend $800 for CG5 and it lasts 5 years that's $160 per year for a mount. $80 a year if it lasts ten. Not bad, either number. But we assume it has zero to no resale value??? Or will people just use these as "dead GEMs" without drives or setting circles (can they be used that way?)
My G11 cost $1800 in 2000 so I've paid so far (stepper version). I think I could probably re-sell it for $1500 or more (it has Ovision and so is a bit "special," but I'm leaving Ovision out of the equation). So lets use a ten yeasr baseline. Amortized outlay is $180 a year which is pricey by ASGT standards just outlined. On the other hand if I resell it, let's be real conservative, at $1300, I net out at $500 outlay over 10 years or $50/year. But I think it is worth closer to $1500 (which nets to $30/year!). If we make it a Gemini version $330 a year net outlay over 10 years, if you resell at $1600 half that, $165/year.
It seems to me that good/better equipment is potentially price competitive with the lower end stuff. If you use a 5 year baseline for an ASGT and a 10 year baseline for a G11/Gemini with 50% resale value you net out at the same cost per month and you've had a better mount.
The only downside I can see is that you miss the neat gadgets that they come up with if you don't reboot everything every five years.
But my sense is that the neat gadgets are precisely what break. If the G11 is a 20 year mount--one might assume so, there are already 14 to 18 year old versions out there--then the amortization is even more in its favor. But we don't need to worry about that because we in effect factored in that long life by positing a resale value.
The numbers work better for ASGT and similar if we assume they will have resale value. But as one person has posted in this thread there are some mounts like the LXD 75 that may not make it. We could also jigger some of the numbers back in favor of the upper end by saying OK we'll assume a G8 instead of a G11. But it is more intersting to work the numbers iwth the higher capacity mount.
I don't really know what might or might not make it. There are some 1980s Celestron forks out there taht are still ticking. Maybe ASGT/LXD class mounts will survive that long? How long do we think servos will last? I think steppers are forever, but I'm less sure about servos.
Greg N
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"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 730
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As an afterthought one thign that emerges from these analyses is that this hobby can be pretty cheap compared to bowling etc. It depends on how much willpower one has. If you keep acquiring stuff it is an expensive hobby. If you get into a solid configuration that lasts its amazingly cheap, even if its a pricey combination.
Imagine being able to use a 9.25 and G11 (stepper) for about $300 a year over ten years and still have resale value. There's little reason to believe that either would break. With resale value at 50% that's $150 a year. That's astounding. First class views of the universe for $150 a year. Even a primo OTA like a TEC 140 would lift annual amortized outlay to only $900 a year, and it would probably have more than 50% resale value so you'd probably net out at, say, $300 a year.
If I could contain my impulses to acquire ever greater quantities of astro stuff, I'd get good value too!!
Greg N
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"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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The other good thing with getting new mounts is the rate of technical change is shortening. My next mount will be a harmonic or direct drive and will have so close to Zero PE that it can't be measured out of the box with no mods and cost not much more than my current mount. The current mount will be boxed up and moved to the cellar (along with its predecessors) in case I ever need a backup.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2926
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I can only speak for my LXD75, which has been in every way a fantastic bargain - has kept adjustment and never failed outside. It "just works". An excellent portable visual mount, and with some effort, short-exposure imaging.
-drl
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t.r.
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/14/08
Posts: 577
Loc: Upstate NY
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With the latest pricing the ASGT can be had for $565, thats $56 per year! A very good deal for goto IMO, many are on their fifth year or better. I think ten is realistic with one major repair in a decade.
I for one, am a visual observer fortunatley, so I spend my money on high quality optics and any accessory I want to try. I have had the occasional "runaway" on a goto, but I just hit Undo, chuckle and re-enter. For visual observing programs...big deal. 99% of the time, my goto's with the ASGT are spot on in a 50x eyepiece. What more can I ask for at $56/year! 
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Present Stable:
Kmart 40mm(first scope @ age 8)
Jason 60mm
C80SS
Tak Sky90II
PST
C6XLT
AP130 "Gran Turismo"
C-11XLT
EQ-2,CG-4,ASGT-5,DenkII's,TV(zoom,plossls,Ethos),Pentax XW's,UO volcano set, ZAOII 4mm,BaaderZoom and other un-notables
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
Carl Sagan
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Paul G
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 2268
Loc: Freedonia
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Looking at it that way, my AstroPhysics stuff pays me to use it. Sweet!
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Gus
Tasco 4.5 Reflector EQ Telescope
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SleepIsWrong
sage
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 443
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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I would expect 10 years from any mount in the G11/CGE class. I only mention this range since that's what I own, and was about what I figured would be the useful lifetime when I made my purchases.
Mike
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14" Celestron CGE (two of 'em)
Soupy, orange, mag 4. skies (woof!)
ST9-XE, ST8-XME
ssp-3 photometer
Mira Pro UE7 & ProScript, IDL v7.1, AIP4Win, MaxIm DL, TheSky6 Pro, PC-IRAF 2.14.1
Way too many white squares in the graphic, below
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3943
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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Why would a stepper motor last any longer than a servo motor? The specs (stated lifespan, warranties, etc.) appear to be similar. Use in a telescope mount is also definitely "light duty" for any motor. The motor's themselves are clearly not the limiting factor in lifespan. The electronics and the connectors are the limiting components.
If a mount has "enough" critical mass, enough of an installed base to warrant interest from folks who will create replacements for the electronics then it stands a much greater chance of extending it's lifespan. Critical mass (numbers) and price points (margins) are what will fuel the upgrade market for older mounts.
That same critical mass would also have an effect on the ability to replace the motors if it made sense to change over to stepper motors (say for compatibility with 3rd party control systems). Does anyone believe that if enough Celestron CGEs for example started to fail that someone won't come along with a nice little replacement motor/electronics package? Lower priced mounts like the ASGT might not make sense to do upgrades on but with more money invested comes a greater possibility of getting an upgrade.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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Jeff Lee
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/17/06
Posts: 508
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Got to say, I bought my LXD75 used and never had an issue. Goto's dead on, good tracking. I only paid $450 with AC power source 2 years ago. Great mount.
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Jeff Lee
C90,C5,C8, 10 x 50's
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 730
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Quote:
Looking at it that way, my AstroPhysics stuff pays me to use it. Sweet!
Optics, yes. The mount: no, those depreciate. So far my FS128 value appears to be flat so I'm breaking even, except for loss due to inflation. AP stuff does appreciate but maybe less than you think if you adjust for inflation. Some of the older AP stuff is priced pretty much the way other comparable optics are priced. A few of the very big AP optics are way out of sight in price. GN
--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Looking at it that way, my AstroPhysics stuff pays me to use it. Sweet!
Optics, yes. The mount: no, those depreciate. So far my FS128 value appears to be flat so I'm breaking even, except for loss due to inflation. AP stuff does appreciate but maybe less than you think if you adjust for inflation. Some of the older AP stuff is priced pretty much the way other comparable optics are priced. A few of the very big AP optics are way out of sight in price. GN
It'll be interesting to see how the AP mounts sell over the next 5+ years. With the advent of new drives with Zero PE will that eat into their margin? They have always made their mark on quality and that is not in dispute, but will newer technologies bypass some of their core selling points like low PE?
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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chuckscap
sage
Reged: 07/18/09
Posts: 214
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO USA
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Not if Celestron hand controllers keep dying, and customer service lacks. Celestron will hold onto the under $2000 market for sure. It's hard to beat AP's quality and service, I wish I could afford one (darn kid's, why do they have to go to college anyway lol ...)
I'm still looking for that Parallax HD150 for $1850 that got away ...
Chuck
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Phil Cowell
sage
Reged: 05/24/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Southern Tier NY
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Quote:
Not if Celestron hand controllers keep dying, and customer service lacks. Celestron will hold onto the under $2000 market for sure. It's hard to beat AP's quality and service, I wish I could afford one (darn kid's, why do they have to go to college anyway lol ...)
I'm still looking for that Parallax HD150 for $1850 that got away ...
Chuck
I was thinkling more on the lines of Chronosmount and ASA.
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If it'll fit on a sig you don't have enough
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2701
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I think that the lifespan of these Go-to mounts should be on the order of several decades.
If the motors design uses plain bearings rather than roller bearings, I would think that this would be the first part to wear out.
I have heard of a couple of Celestron CGEs where the worm bearings (or SOME bearing, but I think it was the worm bearings) failed. Symptom is a loud clicking. I belive my mount made this noise once recently, so it could be that there is a design shortcoming. My guess is that if the bearings DO start to fail on numerous units, then that would indicate that the design failed to anticipate thrust loading from unbalanced mounts.
So, assuming that there is not some specific design shortcoming, I think these mounts could go 20 to 50 years.
With lubrication, perhaps longer.
The handsets may fail. For some reason, making buttons and keyboards last a very long time seems to be a big engineering challange. I think handsets will be availble though. As someone else mentioned, there may eventually be an aftermarket suppliear for CG5 and LXD mount parts.
Sadly, I have a Meade LXD 750 though that this would not be the case for. I believe the mount will last 50 years with my usgae patterns, but if the handset fails, there currently is no replacement avialable either new or used. In essence, though it is a FANTASTIC mount, it is now obselete. It functions perfectly, but is no longer supported. There just weren't enough made to warrant an aftermarket vendor to step up.
For the LXD, CGE, and CG5 though, I have even thought about getting into the parts business for them. I would think that I could sell a steady supply of RA and DEC motor assemblies, and if I bought in volume, perhaps could beat Meade/Celestron prices. They don't want to be in the used parts business. They want to be in the new equipment business.
Regards.
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Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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gnowellsct
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 730
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Quote:
It'll be interesting to see how the AP mounts sell over the next 5+ years. With the advent of new drives with Zero PE will that eat into their margin? They have always made their mark on quality and that is not in dispute, but will newer technologies bypass some of their core selling points like low PE?
There are always engineering tradeoffs. AP & Roland are well aware of the design. Since mounts with smooth tracking at 3 to 7 arc seconds are essentially tracking sub arc second with PE and autoguiding, the new mount designs may not be so popular as you think. I won't say yes, I won't say no. I'm just saying, there are bound to be tradeoffs. There always are. GN
--------------------
"Aperture will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no aperture."
featuring selected astrojunk:
bunch o' widefield eyepieces
bunch o' narrowfield eyepieces
couple o' Barlows
couple o' scopes
couple o' mounts
couple o' tripods
and a pier 'n' stuff
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