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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4344
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3429756 - 11/04/09 07:23 PM

I dunno. I think historically cheap department store telescopes like those sold by Walmart have always been pitched at the unwary beginner. My first scope 30+ years ago, for instance, was a $90 Jason Discoverer whose selling point was "280x!". It wasn't horrible optically but the eyepieces and finder were junk, and the alt-az mount frustratingly wobbly.

In fact, there is far more quality, affordable low end gear today than there was in the heyday of visual amateur astronomy.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton

Edited by jrbarnett (11/04/09 07:26 PM)


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bdk
journeyman


Reged: 11/06/09
Posts: 6
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3433721 - 11/06/09 08:39 PM

Light pollution hurts. I was into astronomy as a kid, I had my own telescope and with my father's help, viewed every planet excpet for Pluto. As I grew up, we moved to a more light polluted area, and then when I moved out and started my own family, the area was more light polluted still. I didn't even realize how bad the skies here were, I was just used to it. The skies just didn't seem overly interesting to me.

I didn't really pick up the hobby until a couple of years ago. My wife and I purchased a little vacation getaway way out in the country. The first night we stayed their I looked up and saw the countless stars and the very structured and detailed Milky way and it just took my breath away. I started purchasing beginner books like StarWatch and Turn Left at Orion as soon as we got home and started learning the sky.

Now that I know what to look for, I can actually do quite a bit of stargazing from my light polluted home skies, and can even make out the Milky way at zenith on a good night. These skies are good enough for a stargazer to enjoy themselves, but not good enough to turn a non-stargazer into a stargazer.

I'm 32, so not exactly young, but younger than what most people on this topic seem to be saying are the majorities at clubs. I will note that clubs in general are aging, even social clubs that don't have any kind of "patience" or "intellectual" component Its entirely possible that the next generation of stargazers does indeed exist, but simply isn't as interested in the social aspect of the hobby as they are used to getting what they need in that department through forums such as this one, but they are still out their alone under dark skies.


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Philip Levine
super member


Reged: 03/22/07
Posts: 156
Loc: near Boston, MA
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3434385 - 11/07/09 10:20 AM

Jimmy2K63,
Great suggestion to have PBS do a series on amateur astronomy. Sobering though, because there appears to only be one network that might consider putting together a series on generating interest in astronomy.
Send a check to my local PBS with a suggestion for such a series?
Phil

--------------------
_________________________________________________

Zhumell 10" Dob (modified with degree circle and Wixey inclinometer)
26mm 2" GSO eyepiece
9mm 1.25" GSO eyepiece
13mm Nagler T6
Crayford focuser
DewBuster w/homemade heater strips
Nikon 10x50 EX binoculars
University Optics 11x80 binoculars
Fujinon 16x70 FMT SX
Surveyor Tripod w Universal Astronomics Parallelogram
member International Dark-Sky Association


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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 939
Loc: Ok.
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #3434411 - 11/07/09 10:39 AM

Actually 1; cheap department store scope are quite good compared to the scopes we built for our selves in the 50's and 60's. 2; As a parent/grandparent, when you get a kid a cheap scope to see if they will use it, be prepared to buy a better scope soon after. I found the 70mm Meade sky and land scope a great beginner scope. And bought 4 of them from Wal-Mart at under $50. They have opened the skies to many younger future astronomers and most of those kids now have better scopes.
Now a far as a good TV program on Amteur Astronomy, we are showing how old we are. Every Astronomy Club has the equipment needed to make a series of GREAT educational shorts on getting into Astronomy. It's called You-Tube. Most digital cameras today have the ability to take AVI and these can be used to put together short You-Tube presentations. I challenge each and every Astronomy club to start putting together such "shorts". Todays kids will watch a You-Tube short long before they will read through a forum. As soon as I can find the time (hopefully over Thanks Giving) I will attempt to make one myself.

--------------------
Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60


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ebusinesstutor
sage


Reged: 07/01/09
Posts: 460
Loc: Nanaimo, BC, Canada
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: sailor70623]
      #3434521 - 11/07/09 11:41 AM

Quote:

Actually 1; cheap department store scope are quite good compared to the scopes we built for our selves in the 50's and 60's. 2; As a parent/grandparent, when you get a kid a cheap scope to see if they will use it, be prepared to buy a better scope soon after. I found the 70mm Meade sky and land scope a great beginner scope. And bought 4 of them from Wal-Mart at under $50. They have opened the skies to many younger future astronomers and most of those kids now have better scopes.
Now a far as a good TV program on Amteur Astronomy, we are showing how old we are. Every Astronomy Club has the equipment needed to make a series of GREAT educational shorts on getting into Astronomy. It's called You-Tube. Most digital cameras today have the ability to take AVI and these can be used to put together short You-Tube presentations. I challenge each and every Astronomy club to start putting together such "shorts". Todays kids will watch a You-Tube short long before they will read through a forum. As soon as I can find the time (hopefully over Thanks Giving) I will attempt to make one myself.




Good point about using the web rather than TV to reach people. Studies show young people are spending more and more time online and less watching TV.

So reaching out via YouTube and other video sites is likely more effective.

PBS shows just reach more old fogies like us!

--------------------
Garland Coulson
Orion XT8i Dob & Celestron 80 ED on a Vixen Porta Mount Mini
Baader Hyperion 8-24mm Click Zoom & Siebert Observatory 36mm
Siebert Black Knight Binoviewers
SkyWatcher Observing Chair
Celestron Skymaster 15x70mm binos


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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 939
Loc: Ok.
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: ebusinesstutor]
      #3434538 - 11/07/09 11:49 AM

I've never know a kid who watches PBS, or any "educational TV". But I do know many 21 yo's who still watch Cartoons!

--------------------
Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60


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Frozn Owl
journeyman


Reged: 11/13/08
Posts: 61
Loc: Woodbury, MN
Re: Most people in this hobby [Re: sailor70623]
      #3435364 - 11/07/09 09:12 PM

This discussion reminds me of a poll we did in 4th grade, which I think may be able to explain a bit of this. Everyone had to choose what career they wanted to get into, and in the end, I believe the choices of about 60% of the class fell into the "Professional athlete/performer" category (singer and pro football player were very common).

In addition, there's only one kid at my school who I can think of off the top of my head who has a non sports/music/video games related hobby (he's interested in ancient history). I'm not saying that sports, music, acting etc. are bad, but that they to some degree monopolize the hobby section with kids today.

Astronomy is simply a slow hobby which requires a lot of patience, and in the fast paced world that we live in, this seems to doom it from ever becoming popular with most kids my age.

--------------------
Orion Savannah 10x50
Oberwerk 9x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
Orion Skyquest XT6 Dob
Sirius Eyepieces: 10mm, 17mm, 25mm, 32mm

Edited by Frozn Owl (11/07/09 09:19 PM)


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skybsd
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 599
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: Frozn Owl]
      #3435883 - 11/08/09 06:48 AM

Hi,
This is exactly the point I was making a few clicks ago.

As a hobby, if we believe there is a danger of it eventually suffering as we pass on, its no use blaming everything under the sun, when the fact is, there is a heck of a lot of other activities out there for people to do now than there was when most of us started off.

As far as competing for the attention and interests of the populace, this hobby is not only losing., its been losing for a long time now..,

The world has moved on.

Regards,

skybsd


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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3563
Loc: New Mexico
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: skybsd]
      #3436008 - 11/08/09 09:36 AM

I'm 30, so I guess that puts me in the middle of the pack since we are speaking to points about correlating age to interest here, among other things. Being in the middle, I'd like to share some of my own thinking on my situation over time which has led me to where I am in amateur astronomy today.

I had a huge interest in Astronomy as a young kid. The outer solar system missions did it for me. This is at a time where media was more readily available to me (school libraries, etc) to see beautiful images and stories to stir my imagination. There were still strong talks about manned missions to mars and other stimulating things.

My family was enlisted military as I was growing up. We traveled the world quite literally. We didn't have a lot of money, and we never had clear skies - ALWAYS lived near the world's largest cities - London, Athens, etc. The best instrument I ever had as a kid was a set of 50mm binoculars and always under light polluted skies. Not once did I see anything in the sky that blew my mind. Yet, I knew it was out there, and always persisted. I always made sure to catch lunar eclipses, and close comets - anything I could see with the naked eye or those binocs. Faint fuzzies never did it for me, frankly, they kind of still don't do it for me, but I'll make another point with that in a second.

At 17 or 18 I got my very first scope. It was a 60 or 70mm dept store piece of junk by most standards, but it was my piece of junk, and it gave me views to things I never had access to before. I saw Saturn and it's rings for the first time through my own eyes even though it was barely a speck, still never saw anything deep sky that drew my attention. At this time I had moved to New Mexico for the first time, and got to experience truly dark skies. There were now things I could see with my own eyes that I could never see with binocs in polluted skies. I wanted more out of it, but still didn't have any money. Shortly after, I was out of school, working a new career and had moved to Washington D.C. and started a family. Once again, back to polluted skies, and financial limitations as I started a family in a very expensive part of the country. I even left my little scope in NM with family, knowing it wouldn't get any use in northern Virginia. Life was just too busy and too expensive for me to get anything further out of astronomy other than what my imagination and magazines and books could provide.

I moved back to NM about 5 years ago. I live far out of the city lights now. And of course over all of these years the cost of astronomy gear that can provide respectable views of the heavens has become more and more affordable. I live in ideal conditions, and have some disposable income which allowed me to rekindle active astronomy in my life again. I bought in to AP gear, granted, entry level, but none the less, it has taken me to an aspect of astronomy I would have never imagined possible when I was younger. I can now produce my own renditions of the beautiful objects I always saw in books and magazines. I can see things on my screen that I could never hope to glimpse through an eyepiece. Point of all of this is not to turn it to an AP vs visual arguement, this is not my point at all.

Getting more to the point, I grew up on Atari, Nintendo, and in conditions that aren't truly conducive to bringing about interest in astronomy as a hobby. This generation has cell phones, laptops, wireless communication systems, and so many items in our lives that make everything accessible at the push of a button without having to really use imagination or to lift more than a finger to get results. Most things tend to be instantaneous. We're continuing to head further down that path, and light pollution is growing along with it. I certainly enjoy the conveniences myself, I'd be lying if I said I didn't. Maybe that's why AP has drawn me in to astronomy as a serious hobby in the last few years. It's push of a button access to a digital rendition of astronomy, when I choose, where I choose. But I wouldn't have gone this far if I didn't live in dark skies, have some spending money, time to sit and enjoy the hobby, and of course the influences and exposure I had to space related material as a younger child. As an older child I didn't get ANY exposure to astronomy in high school. I took "Astronomy 101" to discover I had a teacher who read from notes in a book published in the 60s and was so inaccurate that I could ignore him in every single class and still ace his tests. There's just not as much influence out there to spark the younger kids' interest in Astronomy. MOST live in light polluted skies, and simply don't have any real media to inspire them. Why would they want to spend any money (assuming they have some) to get in to a telescope, or bother traveling 20, 40, 60 miles or even more to find a dark sky? I kept at it because I had lots of exposure at times when interesting things were going on, and because I like to contemplate what is out there. There just aren't as many kids out there under the right conditions to really want to grasp on to astronomy as a serious interest. You aren't going to enjoy a hobby that is difficult to sustain - refrerring to light pollution, lack of education, lack of friends/family in the same interest to share with, lack of at least some financial flexibility.

It's like living in Iowa and expecting young kids there to become serious mountain climbers. There's no stimulation or exposure in their flat fields to really encourage it.

I'm sure you get the idea of what I'm trying to say. Of course none of it I mean to be projected in absolutes, just more of generalization. I consider myself more of the exception rather than the norm.

And, btw, a hobby I did sustain over the years was collecting game systems - I have managed to procure just about every system ever produced over the years. I don't get a lot of time to play them, but I grew up on them. So, yes, it's not just the "digital age" that deters kids from Astronomy in my opinion, it's a conglomerate of many factors playing out against them. I don't believe it's a lack of intellectual ability. I don't believe it's due to the need for instantaneous gratification via technology as we now have astrophotography readily available for cheap. I think conditions are as such that maybe people simply don't realize what is there. Ever hear the stories about the big blackouts in L.A. in the summertime and how people call the police reporting huge clouds over the city and thinking the city was burning down? Or reports of the strange lights and how we were under attack? It was the Milky Way and people didn't know it! Why? How far do you have to drive from L.A. to see the Milky Way like that? 100 miles? Maybe more?

Elitism didn't drive me away either. Sure, starting in, I spent maybe a total of $1500 into my first AP rig - dirt cheap in comparison to those who are far more serious about it. At gatherings and star parties, there's people with $10K, 20K, 30K setups as their "portable" gear. All of them much older than me. Yet, were the most enthusiastic and involved people I've ever met. More than willing to share, most eager to have you look through their EP or screens. I think too many people assume that if you drive a nice car, you must be a snob. I think the same misperception applies to the astronomy community to some degree. That's just a lack of people using their feelers and making assumptions rather than finding out the truth for themselves. I've been doing outreach for the last couple years. Since sharing with neighbors and people around me at work who have never touched a telescope in their lives, I've managed to stimulate at least 5 people into buying their own telescopes. Why? It didn't take any pushing on my part, just simply exposing them to the right conditions and showing them an avenue they've never known was within their reach. Gear is affordable now, and here in NM, skies are accessible. They simply were never introduced to it.

Anyway, I've rambled on so long my kids and wife are wondering whem I'm going to cook breakfast....

Thanks for the great thread guys. It really did have me stop and think personally what it was that drove me to stay in Astronomy, and what kind of factors were against me from the start, and what factors my children may face as time goes by. Lot's of thought on this whole topic.

--------------------
-Josh

http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html

My AP Gallery


Edited by DaemonGPF (11/08/09 09:41 AM)


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Jimmy2K63
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #3436058 - 11/08/09 10:06 AM

Wow some great reads on this thread. I really enjoyed reading yours Josh because its shows what many of us have in common. I got a big laugh out of the blackouts and the fact that many have never seen the milky way and it scared them. But I'm sure it's really like that, even in my own limited experiences.

My grandfather and I used to watch the moonshots as a young child of 6, and he bought me a small telescope for my 6th birthday. My uncle was also into astronomy and he had larger telescopes, but it provided a foundation to build some interest in something "smart" to do. Although I bounced between ham radio and astronomy for many years, I stuck with it, in spite of my equipment basically being junk, a couple of toy refractors until I got my 6 inch reflector given to me by my uncle at age 14. Still I hung in there even though what I could see was limited with my gear and I was a Sky and Telescope subscriber, so I could set my sites on greater things. I grew up in the absence of light pollution, a place which ironically many years later has become a protected dark sky preserve and now hosts a major Canadian star party. Oddly they know nothing about the fact that I was the original "discoverer" of this great and wonderful place to do astronomy.

At age 22 I discovered that there was an astronomy club just formed in a small city 40 miles away, and I had a drivers permit by then, so I went to one meeting. This was in the summer of 1985, and I met many like minded but quite a bit older people than myself, and it gave me access to the facility and its 10 inch scope. I asked my uncle if he still used his and he said no, so I bought it from him. This was right before Halley's comet made its once in 76 year return so interest in astronomy had reached a peak and I had a serious instrument at last. Needless to say the telescope and I became friends after I built it an observatory on the club's property and I was very active in the organization before moving south 10 years ago, where my interest, primarily because of money, sat dormant until March of this year when I showed up at a star party on a camping excursion. The rest, as they say, is history.

Still at that time I was the only young guy in the club, and later brought many of my friends into the organization. I don't see it as an endemic weakness that young people are not involved, I think it is a function of age. Astronomy tends to be an older more relaxed hobby that people settle into often in their middle age. Even those Sky and Telescope magazines were full of old guys in the 1970's, very few kids, so hang in there, there is hope. In fact thanks in large part to the Dobsonian revolution, there is more equipment and better telescopes available today than ever, and in my opinion the hobby has never been more vibrant than it is today. Now if only we could recapture some of that pioneering spirit of the old timers that I so often rant about in my blog, that whole can-do attitude.

James

--------------------
http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/

LXD75 SN6-UHTC
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70/FarSight
Canon XS (1000D)


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nyc_nurse
sage


Reged: 07/29/09
Posts: 253
Loc: nyc
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: DaemonGPF]
      #3436070 - 11/08/09 10:18 AM

Great thread with a lot of insightful posts. I've visited 4 local clubs and found member demographics similar to what has been said here - most are 40 to 60, leaning toward the upper end and predominantly male. Is it merely a repercussion of our national disinterest, or at times hostility, towards science and mathematics? Is it the fact that a lot of people in their 50/60's grew up with night skies vastly less LP'ed than ours today, with the added intoxication that science and space had for that generation? In truth we need more accurate demographic information than the anecdotal views that we all contribute. Reach out programs probably would help but I think like most things the best way to expand a hobby is by word of mouth and letting our friends and family have a first hand experience. I think our hobby has a bright future - hopefully not too bright skies!

--------------------
Sam P.
www.agirlandaguy.blogspot.com

Pentax 7X50
TV-102 APO w/ (Starbeam - on backorder )
Ash Gibraltar w/ SkyTour DSC
NZ3-6, N9T6, N13T6
TV 20 Plossl
Pan 24, 35
Pentax XW10, XW14


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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
*****

Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12220
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Most people in this hobby new [Re: nyc_nurse]
      #3436198 - 11/08/09 11:28 AM

Sky & Telescope has published a demographic survey of their readership.
I forget the actual statistics (I could look it up at work), but it's largely over 45, largely educated, largely above average income levels. In short, the same demographic that was pursuing the hobby when I got started in 1963.
Are there fewer people entering the hobby now?
Hard to say, but I could state this without fear of contradiction:
--there are more entry level scopes available now than at any time in history.
--there are more retail stores dedicated to the sale of optics than I recall there being at any time in my lifetime.
--there are bigger crowds at my observing site than there used to be (mid '80s excepted)
--more and more lighting ordinances are being passed every year to control outdoor lighting

Is the growth and proliferation of products due to simply an increase in the population? Maybe not. I've given lectures to school kids in 3rd, 5th, and 6th grades. The percentage of kids really interested may not be any higher than when I was young, but the kids seem more aware of what's going on in science than when I was young.

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member


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