Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning Imaging

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
Anonymous
Unregistered




New to Astrophotography...need advice!
      #344429 - 02/15/05 02:22 PM

I have been into photography for quite some time now and currently own a Canon Digital Rebel 300D. I have always had an interest in Astronomy and in the past few years have thought of getting a decent telescope that would get me started in Astrophotography.

Well...I am at that point! I have moved to Digital Photography when I bought my Digital Rebel a few months ago and am really interested in photography and looking at the heavens. I have done SOME research into telescopes and am really overwhelmed with all that is out there. In addition, I have been taking some lunar shots with a good tripod and a good zoom lens on my 300D. This has gotten me more familiar with taking longer exposure shots at distant objects. So I feel like I am ready to think about the next step.

So here is my question. I need advice on some telescopes to look at that can get me started in both general Astronomy, but more specifically Astrophotography. I don't want to invest too much since I am just getting started...thinking around $500 or so. Not even sure if I can get started for that or not. Initially I will take pictures of planets, but my real interest is the deeper nebulas and galaxies. Should I look into telescopes with auto-finding devices to help me navigate the skies? Do I need some sort of drive system due to the long exposures?

I have a minivan, so I can accomodate a decent-sized telescope if that is what I should be looking at.

Thanks so much in advance...
Rob Emenaker


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
RogeZ
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 11/21/04
Posts: 575
Loc: Miami, Florida
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #344482 - 02/15/05 03:25 PM

I think you are in the same situation that I was a few months ago, I would suggest to go for the C8-NGT which sells new for 1000 and that if you replace the focuser, you will have pretty decent setup for prime focus with the rebel.The focuser has to be replace with a low profile focuser.Other than that the SkyViewPro/ED80 is the less expensive setup that you will be able to use to start astrophography.I will suggest expecially if youre skies aren't good to have GOTO, I will save you a lot of trouble and make the nights more productive.

--------------------
RogeZ
6" C6-RGT "Yard Cannon"
12" Deep Space Observer
Working on a BS Mechanical Engineering
www.rogeastronomy.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Suk Lee
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4315
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: RogeZ]
      #344514 - 02/15/05 03:55 PM

It looks way over the top, but there's a lot of good information in this thread.

Cheers,
Suk

--------------------
http://www.siliconvalleyskies.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: RogeZ]
      #344525 - 02/15/05 04:01 PM

Thanks for the reply. As you can imagine, I now have more questions. You suggest two different types of scopes...one a Reflector and one a Refractor. I guess I had the impression that most people chose Cassegrain scopes for Astrophotography. Just what I read. Guess that isn't necessarily true. Is there a specific advantage I should understand about each type of scope when it comes to Astrophotography? I have read the differences between the types of scopes, but can never really find pros and cons for each type as applied to Astrophotography.

Also, you mention "if your skies aren't good to have GOTO"...I wasn't aware that there was such a situation?!? I thought you just align a couple of stars and away you go. Maybe I am misinformed.

Should I look into a dual-axis drive for the scope I am buying?

I was looking around on the net and came across this scope...but can't find anyone who has experience with them:

http://www.konus.com/fullview/1796full.htm

It is a 130mm 5.1" scope with a focal length of 2000mm (f15.4). Not sure if I know all of those numbers are good or not There is more information form their website:

http://www.konus.com/welcome.htm

Has anyone ever heard of these guys?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #344764 - 02/15/05 08:06 PM

HOLY MOLY!!! I read through that thread and I am worried I may be in over my head! Is it even reasonable to think I can get a Telescope and start Astrophotography for around $500 or more? These guys are dropping $10K and $30K!! I guess I am not sure what to even expect as a beginner who is not prepared to dump that kind of money up front. Maybe down the road I could see it, but just getting started I have to think there is a less expensive way to learn.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Suk Lee
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4315
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #344861 - 02/15/05 09:05 PM

Don't worry, I said it's over the top. For $500 you can start with planetary imaging with a webcam which doesn't need a super duper mount. You'll get small images but the thrill of capturing a planet...

--------------------
http://www.siliconvalleyskies.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: Suk Lee]
      #344920 - 02/15/05 09:48 PM

Thanks Suk...I appreciate the post. As you said before...it is WAY over the top! I have looked at your images and posts and you seem to be quite good at this, so I think I am in the right place to get good advice on getting started.

I think I have a sufficient camera (Canon 300D) already which saves quite a bit of money. Now I just need a good scope to get started with that isn't going to break the bank, but still enables me to take some decent shots with.

Like you said...the thrill of capturing a planet. Or anything in the sky for that matter So if you had $500-$700 to spend on a telescope, mount, and drive, where would you look?

Rob


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
c131frdave
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4373
Loc: Arcanum, Ohio
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #344996 - 02/15/05 10:36 PM

First, Suk is the man. I am a total newbie too, but I've snapped a few shots now.

There's a guy who has a web site out there (sorry, can't remember it) who shoots with his rebel on a motorized EQ mount and a 500mm zoom lens. His results are nothing less than spectacular. Not Suk spectacular, but pretty close.

I've found that the Rebel CMOS sensor is unbelievably sensative, and doesn't require as long exposures as many ccd cameras. I just ordered the Orion 80mm APO refractor. It should be here tomorrow, and I plan to try it out on M31. The telescope was only $500 (no mount), but I've heard great reviews. You could get a motorized mount for it that might be good for beginner photography from Orion for an additional $300 or so.

Anyway, pay attention to Suk and many of the other guys on here because they are all world class astrophotographers. Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

--------------------
Tak NJP
SXV-H9

Various sizes and shapes of formed glass


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: c131frdave]
      #345010 - 02/15/05 10:46 PM

I would be really interested in that guys website if you can track it down.

Let me know how your Orion 80mm works out...I will be interested to see what the results are with that and your Rebel.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Suk Lee
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4315
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #345139 - 02/16/05 12:56 AM

If you've got the Canon, you should check out Canon's own webpage on astrophotography, and in particular on shooting on equatorial mounts with a camera and a lens:

http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/astro/pages_e/07_e.html

If $500 is your limit right now, I'd skip the telescope and do some wide-field imaging with an EQ3 mount, single axis drive, and your camera. Invest in the remote trigger cable and ImagesPlus (google ImagesPlus and the website has info on the cables) and you can control your camera with your PC and take long exposure images and get some great widefield shots.

Suk

--------------------
http://www.siliconvalleyskies.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2133
Loc: Newark, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #345153 - 02/16/05 01:15 AM

If I was going to get into astrophotography, and I had $500 to spend right now, I would first restrict myself to the concept of planetary photography. The reason that I suggest this is that planetary photography (with "snapshot" exposures of less than 1 second) is a good basic introduction to astrophotography without trying to go overboard.

For planetary photography, it turns out that a humble webcam (like the $50 eyeball cam that you may have attached to your computer already) is the camera of choice. Because webcams can shoot "movies" at many frames per second, they have a good chance of being able to "beat the seeing" and catch a planet in that split-second moment of perfectly clear atmosphere. Even if that moment never occurs , you can take the individual frames out of one of these movies, and stack them together, which tends to increase the details on the planet, while minimizing the "noise" and effects of bad seeing, etc.

So, look for a webcam. The Logitech QuickCam Pro 4000 is available at brick and mortar retailers (such as Best Buy and others) or online, and makes a fine planetary camera for about $50 or $75. An adapter to mate it to your telescope (I'll get to the scope in a sec; hang in there ) will cost about $20, or you can make one in about 5 minutes using one of those plastic 35mm film canisters (which turn out to be exactly the right size) and some tape.

You'll also need a telescope. Well, hm. You're looking at a telescope for about $450 (if you don't have a webcam already) to $500 (if you do) that will do a good job on planets. The Konus Mak that you suggest will probably do a nice job on planets. However, the long focal length leads to a very restricted field-of-view, so if it was your only telescope, I think that you might find it a little hard to find objects when you're using the scope for visual use.

I don't know (but I assume) that you are looking for a telescope that will be a good performer visually, too. In that case, a Newtonian reflector in the 6" to 8" range would probably fit the bill nicely. Plenty of aperture for shooting planets, a bit wider FOV than the Mak, nice size for all-around visual use. Neither of the two scopes I've linked to here have GOTO, but I think that if your budget is $500, you should spend your money on a better telescope and mount than to spend $150 or so of it on a GOTO computer. Each of the telescopes I've suggested comes with a single-axis (Right Ascension) drive to keep it pointed at the object you pointed it at (by rotating along with the Earrth's rotation), which is a helpful addition. My wife, for instance, likes the idea that I can point the scope at Saturn, then go find her, get her to come look, and Saturn's still in the eyepiece when she gets there.

Both of these scopes are a lot (physically) larger than they look in the pictures! Pay attention to the specs regarding length, weight, etc.

But these will both do a nice job of being a good, solid first telescope, good for planetary photography, good for visual use, and more or less within your budget.

You may notice that I haven't mentioned your 300D yet. Well, since you're going to be using a webcam to do your planetary photography, the 300D will be available for you to experiment with shooting widefield swaths of the sky. From a fixed tripod, I've seen pretty nice star trails photos coming out of this camera, and, once you figure out what you're doing, you can let the 300D ride "piggyback" on top of the telescope, and do widefield photos that can track with the rotation of the Earth.

Before you get to a point where you're going to be doing "prime focus" photography, though, where you're using the telescope as a really long telephoto lens for the 300D, you're probably going to find that you need a different mount, some extra photography equipment, and probably even a new OTA (telescope tube). This type of astrophotography rig has been coming down in price recently, and for about $1500, you can have a nice setup that will probably take you to the limit of what you and your 300D can do. But by the time you get to that point, you'll have a lot better idea of what you're looking for, and also hopefully a better idea of whether this astrophotography thing is really something that you want to pursue.

I'm sorry that I can't really give you any suggestions that aren't going to end up needing a total upgrade and overhaul later. But a nice planetary rig and one that will do good widefield piggybacked shots is actually pretty nice, for $500. Man, what I wouldn't give for a 300D right now... drool.

Hope that helps!

Clear skies,
Jimbo
PS: Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

--------------------
Order of the Unblinking Eye

G-11 D70 ST4 8"f/5 AT66ED (Rig)

I used to shoot film.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: Rushwind]
      #345218 - 02/16/05 03:38 AM

Welcome to Cloudy Nights Rob!

I'm with Suk and Jimbo on this one. It would be nice to start out shooting these great DSO's (Deep Space Objects) but that would also need much $$$. Planetary astrophotography and wide field astrophotography demands less of your equipment and is easier to start with.

Every choice of scope you take will be a trade-off. There is no 'one size fits all' scope. Every type of scope has it's pros and cons. I suggest you try to get some info on that, there's lots to find here on CN and elsewere on the net

I do have some advice on the scope buying part, if you are really intrested in astrophotography;;
- get a scope with an equatorial mount with at least the RA-axis motor driven.
- try to spend as much money as you can on the scope with the best mount, a 5" reflector on a EQ4 mount is a better choice then a 6" reflector on a EQ3 mount
- decide if you want to use the scope visually also and how much you'll be doing of it, this will influence your choice; visually aperture rules, with astrophotography it's less important.

I do think that your budget of $500 is stretching the lower limit of a starter set. I say this because you will very soon find out that getting the scope and mount itself will get you only halfway there. There's also accesories, and for astrophotography to work nicely, there are some you just must have.

If $500 is your limit right now, i would suggest the following;
- Spend as much as you can on a decent mount/scope with at least a RA drive from a well known supplier with good service
- Spend the rest of your money on a good book about the basics of astronomy and the night sky, this IS important
- Learn to use the scope visually for at least 6 months and learn the basics of astronomy, it will help you very mcuh later on (you don't want to spend 3 hours setting up only to found out that you no idea where to look at....)
- In the mean time, save up for some acc's
- When you've saved up enough, get yourself a webcam and adapter and barlow and start with planetary and moon shots. This will have you busy for at least another half year.

In the mean time, you already have a complete investment for wide field astrophotgraphy; use your 300D and lenses for wide field work; try to capture each constellation by itself (learning AND astrophotography). You can do all this by piggy riding the 300d on your scope.

Some scope suggestions;
- The konus is a nice setup for planetary work although i do not know the quality of konus products in general; the brand is not a 'main stream' brand. This is not to say that the quality is not ok. Like jimbo said, the field of view is more narrow but that's no problem for planetary work.
- http://www.telescope.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=2435&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword= this scope form a well known brand is on a nice mount and is good for visual use because it has a large aperture. It's wide field so less ideal for planetary work. You will get a RA motor with the standard version
- http://www.telescope.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1610&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword= is also a wide field scope, but a refractor and much smaller on the same mount, this means that the mount will be more stable because it has to handle less weight. It also comes with a RA drive standard. Tha advantage is that you can attach the the 300d on the 2" focusser later on (with acc's). Because it's a refractor there's less cooldown time but the catch is that it's no apo.
- http://www.telescope.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5243&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword= this one is over your budget, but is a really nice set-up for planetary work, it's the same type of scope as the konus but (i believe) on a better mount and with larger aperture

The above are just suggestions, i really would advice to read up on different type of scopes and decide which type will fit you best.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #345460 - 02/16/05 10:49 AM

Suk, Peppe, Jimbo, and c131frdave...thanks so much for your help and advice!! This is really proving to be quite useful. I am not the type of person to just dive-in and buy something without doing TONS of research and you guys are really helping me with that more than you know!

Suk...that website from Canon on Astrophotography is awesome. I guess I never realized that I can achieve some amazing results with just my camera and a good mount. Wide-field shots are awesome in their own right.

I have already made some decent shots of the moon with a standard tripod and my camera, but it is relatively simple because the moon is so bright and so close. It sounds like a good next-step might be to get a good motorized mount with my money and try my hand at longer wide-angle exposures that require some tracking. It might be a better step and keep me in under my budget. It might also provide me with a good motorized platform for a good scope later on when I am ready to move up in $$$ and experience level.

Another option I am throwing around is getting a scope for visual use rather than photography. Seeing as how I really have NO idea where anything is up there, it might be wise for me to step up my Astronomy skills while I am shooting wide-angle shots with my 300D and the lenses I own. Peppe and Jimbo...thanks for the links to Orion on some scopes that might get me started in this arena. I feel good that you guys are recommending Orion scopes. I always thought because of their relatively low price point, that they were of no quality whatsoever. Good to know that they might be a decent option afterall.

What do you guys think of my approach? Possibly spend the $500 on a good motorized mount for my 300D that can adapt a good scope later. Or possibly split that for a decent viewing scope and an ok mount...let me know what you think.

I am heading back to the Internet to do more research I am having fun already and haven't even started yet! Hope it only gets better.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TeamGS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: ]
      #345511 - 02/16/05 11:34 AM

Based upon your price point, and the fact that you don't have any telescope, I would recommend: (1) looking for a used value on AMart. (2) Get a visual use scope to help your learn the heavens, but with tracking motors, so that you can take piggyback shots with your rebel. (3) save more $$ and also get a webcam, to image the planets, providing you have a PC near your scope. You might even want to look into a DSI, which will allow you to start on DSO's as well as planets.

I saw a used 8" f/5 Orion Skyview Pro newt with dual axis drives on AMart for $500. While it will not be confused with a serious imaging platform, it should give you adequate tracking for piggyback shots, and even shorter exposure images through the scope.

Just a thought, YMMV.

Good Luck!

Gary

--------------------
Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2133
Loc: Newark, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: TeamGS]
      #345671 - 02/16/05 02:01 PM

Gary, good point on looking into used gear. Somehow hadn't thought of that in my long-winded rant. By the way, exodar, this is the URL for Astromart. *Lots* of good deals on astro gear over there.

exodar, Well, here's the first piece of good news I have for you; if you buy a telescope that's on a GEM mount (like the ones that peppe, Gary, and I have posted links for), with tracking drives, then you've got a two-fer; you can use the mount for your telescope, learning the heavens, etc. Plus, you can mount your camera on it (either piggybacked on the scope or on the mount all by itself) for tracked widefield shots.

It would be nice, as Suk suggests, to have a dedicated widefield mount (an EQ-3, as he suggests, would be great for this), but with your current budget, it's probably worth getting the single scope, feeling constrained by having to decide whether to image or view on a particular night, and then shake out a little extra for a dedicated EQ-3 for imaging in the future.

Orion has cheap prices because they sell mass-produced OTAs and mounts built in China. Before you get all wiggy, when I say "mass-produced", I mean it in the same way as saying that a Buick is "mass-produced". They get a product that works properly and an economy of scale that leads to good prices. Because Orion itself is a US company, you also get excellent customer service. I own several Orion scopes already, and I would buy one from them again without hesitation. Other companies (Hardin, some Celestron,...) also import their OTAs from China, and have similarly decent product lines.

Good luck out there.

Jimbo

--------------------
Order of the Unblinking Eye

G-11 D70 ST4 8"f/5 AT66ED (Rig)

I used to shoot film.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! new [Re: Rushwind]
      #345744 - 02/16/05 03:04 PM

Jimbo, I think you are right on spot. The two-fer sounds like the way to go...get a scope on a mount with tracking drives and I can piggy back the camera to both view and photograph. That way I can get familiar with long exposures and tracking and be able to familiarize myself with the sky by viewing through the scope.

You mentioned a few terms or acronyms that I am not sure I understand fully...maybe you can assist:

- OTA?!? I know it stands for something useful...
- GEM Mount?!? Is that different than an EQ Mount?!?
- EQ-2, EQ-3...What do the different numbers indicate?!?
- APO Refractors - Is that just a lens difference?!?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tjensen
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 1408
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! [Re: ]
      #345780 - 02/16/05 03:44 PM

Hey

I might as well throw my 2 cents in too...

Will this scope be the only one you will ever buy- or just a trial to see if you like the hobby? Most people that start with a small scope and like the hobby, almost immediately want to go to a larger aperture scope.


If your ambition is deep sky photography, you will ultimately want to go with more aperture. Although, you can get quite a lot with a 5" scope.

Reflectors give you the most "bang for the buck" aperture wise... i.e., they cost less. Refractors are more expensive because of the demands on manufacturing a good quality, large diameter lens.

Both of these types of scopes tend to be large/long.I think that is why SCTs are popular... large diameter built into a small package.

You will definately need an equatorial mount and drive for DSO photography. In Alt/Az mode, you need a drive on each axis, but in equtorial mode, you only need to drive in RA.

Webcams with a barlow lens will give you great views of planets. You already have a good camera with the 300. But for planetary work, the image scale will be small if you don't use eyepiece projection. Which would increase your exposure times.

I use a Canon 10D for DSOs and a web cam for planets.

There is a lot to say on this topic. So I will stop rambling now. To sum up- you might want to save your pennies and get a scope in the $1000-$1500 range. Celestron and Meade both have good scopes in that range that will cover both your planetary and DSO needs.

Terms:
OTA: Optical Tube Assembly
GEM: German Equitorial Mount.
APO: Apochromatic

The important thing is to remember to have fun!!!

Cheers


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TeamGS
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! [Re: ]
      #345782 - 02/16/05 03:46 PM

OTA - Optical Tube Assembly (Tube only)
GEM - German Equatorial Mount
EQ-2, 3-6 - I may be off base a little here, but they are basically different models of GEM's. Usually the higher the number, the better (heavier duty) the mount.
APO - Apochromatic. Without getting into all the technical stuff, it is a type of lense or telescope that exhibits no chromatic aberration. This term is mainly used with refractors or camera lenses.

Regards,

Gary

--------------------
Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! [Re: TeamGS]
      #345969 - 02/16/05 06:41 PM

tjensen...I think it is probably safe to say at this point that my first scope purchase will probably not be my last. From everything I read different scopes are good for different types of viewing and photography. Same reasons I own 3 different lenses for my Digital Rebel However, I think it is not out of the question that I could get a scope and decide I don't like astronomy or astrophotography. I doubt that will happen given the amount of interest I have always had in the topic...and that I am already having a blast doing the research and haven't even got a scope yet

Soooo...I have considered waiting so I can invest $1000 to $1500 in a good scope and mount, but I am not sure I can wait THAT long In addition, I have a skeptical wife who needs to see me invest some REAL time in this before she will authorize that kind of purchase


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: New to Astrophotography...need advice! [Re: ]
      #346114 - 02/16/05 08:44 PM

Someone help me here...is it necessary to have a Dual Drive or is that just a luxury? I see a lot of lower end scopes with mounts that have a RA drive only. I am a bit confused here. If an RA drive will enable you to track a sky object, then why have a motor on each axis?!?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)


Extra information
5 registered and 4 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 2693

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics