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marktownley
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3442360 - 11/11/09 03:41 PM

Excellent thread chaps! I can't contribute to the substance of the discussion, but I must say i'm enjoying reading what everyone has to say on it - good stuff, thanks!

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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3442362 - 11/11/09 03:43 PM

Ken, that is a great explaination and set of diagrams. Thank you. I would mention that the choice of color is not a frequency dependent thing but a demonstration of off axis rays just incase that was not obvious to everyone.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3442381 - 11/11/09 03:54 PM

Quote:

At the simplest level, it looks like you are trading off field angle for instrument angle (Colin K's terminology, if I remember correctly.) in an attempt to get the overall combination of the two less than they would be for a collimated beam.




Well, it is a trade-off between field angle effect and "instrument angle" as you call it. But you can't really reduce the overall effect by finding a middle ground - you'll just end up getting both effects. So generally you choose one or the other.


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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3442389 - 11/11/09 03:59 PM

Quote:

I guess I should call it a re-collimated beam in my LS60. The Solar Spectrum is truely telecentric with a telecentric system designed for the objective.



Ah, sorry, my misunderstanding then - you did use the correct term. I wasn't familiar with the LS60.


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442551 - 11/11/09 05:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

At the simplest level, it looks like you are trading off field angle for instrument angle (Colin K's terminology, if I remember correctly.) in an attempt to get the overall combination of the two less than they would be for a collimated beam.




Well, it is a trade-off between field angle effect and "instrument angle" as you call it. But you can't really reduce the overall effect by finding a middle ground - you'll just end up getting both effects. So generally you choose one or the other.




I have adopted Bob's terminology for this. I would love something that is a little easier for newcomers to understand. Is there better terminology?

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3442571 - 11/11/09 05:47 PM

Quote:

I have adopted Bob's terminology for this. I would love something that is a little easier for newcomers to understand. Is there better terminology?



I don't know if there is an official terminology for this. But I think of the two effects as "field angle" vs. "pupil position" effects. In a collimated beam, the angle of a given ray depends on the field angle (i.e. which part of the field-of-view the ray came from). In a focused telecentric beam, the angle of a given ray depends on pupil position (i.e. which part of the telescope aperture the ray went through).


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3442609 - 11/11/09 06:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have adopted Bob's terminology for this. I would love something that is a little easier for newcomers to understand. Is there better terminology?



I don't know if there is an official terminology for this. But I think of the two effects as "field angle" vs. "pupil position" effects. In a collimated beam, the angle of a given ray depends on the field angle (i.e. which part of the field-of-view the ray came from). In a focused telecentric beam, the angle of a given ray depends on pupil position (i.e. which part of the telescope aperture the ray went through).




Pupil position gets confusing as well. If a pupil was a single ray it would make sense but since it is an aperture it starts to introduce other sources of confusion. (Damn this english. )

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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BYoesle
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3442617 - 11/11/09 06:14 PM

I first learned the terms instrument angle and field angle from Coronado technical articles by David Lunt.

I think the salient point for me when it comes to choosing a H-alpha system design is that there are always trade-offs between bandpass (contrast) uniformity, aperture, and cost, ease of configuration, and the use(s) for which the system is intended.

When it comes to mounting an etalon behind the objective, things become more difficult/complicated in order to achieve reasonably uniform bandwidth across a full-disc (or larger) field comparable to what is obtainable with the front mounted etalon. The professional science folks generally are not too concerned with full disc (or larger) views, so collimated and/or telecentric optics are ideal for the purpose of bandpass uniformity across a relatively small field of view and high resolution imaging. But for amateur viewing at relatively low magnifications, contrast uniformity across a large field of view seems to be of merit.

I may be wrong (most of you are more versed in optics than I) but it appears a telecentric system would have to be designed for a particular objective to work optimally -- I believe the Baader 4 x telecentric is specifically designed to work with a 100-150 mm f8 objective. Likewise, an internal collimator lens would have to be specifically designed and optimized for a specific objective and placed very precisely to have optimal instrument and field angles transmitted through the etalon.

My DayStar filter always showed more uniform bandpass at a reduced aperture and f 30 than I could achieve with a larger aperture and off-the-shelf telecnetric system -- that's why I eventually moved to a Coronado front mounted etalon to get both larger aperture and contrast uniformity across the full field of view.

I note that the Lunt internal negative collimator systems seem to perform better (better design, tighter tolerances, or ?), since there seems to be far fewer reports of a "sweet spot" phenomena than with the Coronado scopes with internal etalons.

Solar Scope seems to have taken the "purist" approach of H-alpha to its extreme -- unobstructed front-mounted etalons, and double stacking for reduced bandwidth only via a second front-mounted etalon = very expensive.

Then there’s the issue of the blocking filter failure. The eyepiece-side filters are less expensive for a given bandpass, but require the aforementioned telecentrics, and are ~ $700 USD to refurbish when the blockers fail. And there's the Coronado rusting blocker ITF’s, which has been a real nuisance, but relatively inexpensive to repair/replace. We might not have had a long enough experience with the Lunt or Solar Scope blocking filters to know if they too won't eventually need periodic replacement.

For aperture greater than 150mm, internal etalons are the only real choices, especially for a bandpass below 0.7 A. These would seem to require a custom designed collimator or telecentric for use with a specific objective (and a large ERF) OR just a large aperture long f ratio system (i.e. 6 inch f 30 folded refractor, etc). But then you have to have to use a focal reducer of some kind to get a full disc view with standard focal length eyepieces...

Seems like the search for the Holy Grail in order to get large (150mm +) aperture, uniform bandpass, reasonable size, and somewhat “affordable” cost. It looked to be the Lunt LS 200 double-pass-etalon reflector (!) at one time, but alas, not yet.

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3443657 - 11/12/09 10:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know if there is an official terminology for this. But I think of the two effects as "field angle" vs. "pupil position" effects. In a collimated beam, the angle of a given ray depends on the field angle (i.e. which part of the field-of-view the ray came from). In a focused telecentric beam, the angle of a given ray depends on pupil position (i.e. which part of the telescope aperture the ray went through).




Pupil position gets confusing as well. If a pupil was a single ray it would make sense but since it is an aperture it starts to introduce other sources of confusion. (Damn this english. )




Not sure what you mean by "if a pupil was a single ray". The pupil is, in this case, the telescope aperture. From a point source in the sky, a bundle of parallel rays enter the pupil, and get focused onto a single point. But each of these rays hit this point at a different angle, because each ray passed through a different part of the aperture (pupil). That's what I meant by "pupil position effect."

I suppose another possible term would be "convergence angle". The wavelength shift/broadning is caused by the fact that the rays are not parallel (collimated), but converging (focused) to a point.


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3444194 - 11/12/09 03:52 PM

Quote:

I think the salient point for me when it comes to choosing a H-alpha system design is that there are always trade-offs between bandpass (contrast) uniformity, aperture, and cost, ease of configuration, and the use(s) for which the system is intended.




A very good point.

Quote:

I may be wrong (most of you are more versed in optics than I) but it appears a telecentric system would have to be designed for a particular objective to work optimally -- I believe the Baader 4 x telecentric is specifically designed to work with a 100-150 mm f8 objective. Likewise, an internal collimator lens would have to be specifically designed and optimized for a specific objective and placed very precisely to have optimal instrument and field angles transmitted through the etalon.




It is focal length that is important. A telecentric system is only truely telecentric at a single focal length.

Quote:

I note that the Lunt internal negative collimator systems seem to perform better (better design, tighter tolerances, or ?), since there seems to be far fewer reports of a "sweet spot" phenomena than with the Coronado scopes with internal etalons.




Sweet spots can also be etalon uniformity issues.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3444198 - 11/12/09 03:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know if there is an official terminology for this. But I think of the two effects as "field angle" vs. "pupil position" effects. In a collimated beam, the angle of a given ray depends on the field angle (i.e. which part of the field-of-view the ray came from). In a focused telecentric beam, the angle of a given ray depends on pupil position (i.e. which part of the telescope aperture the ray went through).




Pupil position gets confusing as well. If a pupil was a single ray it would make sense but since it is an aperture it starts to introduce other sources of confusion. (Damn this english. )




Not sure what you mean by "if a pupil was a single ray". The pupil is, in this case, the telescope aperture. From a point source in the sky, a bundle of parallel rays enter the pupil, and get focused onto a single point. But each of these rays hit this point at a different angle, because each ray passed through a different part of the aperture (pupil). That's what I meant by "pupil position effect."

I suppose another possible term would be "convergence angle". The wavelength shift/broadning is caused by the fact that the rays are not parallel (collimated), but converging (focused) to a point.




However that term is tough as well as in a re-collimated system there is no convergence but the "view" from the lens is that of a larger object. This is tough stuff to simplify into layman's terms. You are doing better than I have.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3444209 - 11/12/09 03:58 PM

Quote:

Sweet spots can also be etalon uniformity issues.



Not if the etalon is in a collimated beam. Non-uniformity in the etalon would not cause a localized sweet spot; it will affect the entire FOV equally.

If the Lunt has a less pronounced sweet spot, it probably means its sweet spot is much larger (covering the entire field of view) than the competitor. Possibly because it uses a larger etalon.


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3444551 - 11/12/09 07:08 PM

Ken, the mica etalons are placed very near the focal point of the objective and the uniformity of the etalon can cause sweet spots. For a full aperture etalon it would widen the bandpass.

My PST had very odd sweet spot issues. The etalon was placed 200mm inside of a 400mm fl objective. Would you think that the asymetric sweet spot was lens flaws or etalon flaws? I never really decided.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Kobayashi
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: colinsk]
      #3444712 - 11/12/09 08:49 PM

Quote:

Ken, the mica etalons are placed very near the focal point of the objective and the uniformity of the etalon can cause sweet spots.



You mean the etalon is not at a pupil of the collimated beam? You're right, that could cause a localized "sweet spot". Seems like a poor design though, it won't make full use of the etalon...


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Gene Baraff
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters new [Re: Kobayashi]
      #3444891 - 11/12/09 10:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ken, the mica etalons are placed very near the focal point of the objective and the uniformity of the etalon can cause sweet spots.



You mean the etalon is not at a pupil of the collimated beam? You're right, that could cause a localized "sweet spot". Seems like a poor design though, it won't make full use of the etalon...




I would have guessed that the etalon, 200mm down from a 400mm objective, had a negative collimating lens in front of it. I suspect that - contrary to what seems to be have been said, the full aperture of the etalon WAS being used.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: Band-Pass of Single and Double Stacked Filters [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3446646 - 11/13/09 07:23 PM

Gene, Yes the PST has a re-collimation lens. The full etalon is being used.

Ken, The diameter of the mica etalons is so small that you have to use them near the focal point of the system. You don't want them at the focal point because of thermal concentrations.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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