carlos_dfc
sage
Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 210
Loc: Darlington, UK
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Lately I've been thinking about getting some large-aperture binoculars, that I could take with me everywhere. I travel about a lot, but can't take my reflector, because of it's size, and my little 60mm has very poor quality optics. So I was wondering if a big pair of zoom binos, and a foldable tripod might be a viable proposition, as a versatile portable setup.
I've seen a pair of Praktica zoom binos that may suit my purpose. They have 80mm objectives, and a variable magnification from 25x - 125x with an exit pupil of 3.2mm at 25x (obviously a lot less at 125x)
I realise that at high magnification settings they'd only be any good for bright objects, but they should suffice for occasional casual lunar & planetary observing.
I'd only use magnifications between 25x and maybe 50x or 60x the rest of the time.
Does anyone have any experience of these binos, or something similar?
I've seen them at £150 in a shop, but have also seen the same model on e-bay go for a lot less.
Would they suit my purpose? or does anyone have any suggestions for something better? (but within my £150 budget)
Any help greatly appreciated
Carlos
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ED100 f900 Apo - 6" f750 Newt - 90mm f1250 mak - 15x70 - 10x50
10" ATM Dob (W.I.P.)
www.astro.forumup.co.uk
(Owner and Admin)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12601
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I would strongly caution AGAINST this approach to one instrument for all purposes.
First, you must go to the "Best Of" threads and follow ALL the links to valuable information captured here about zoom binoculars.
Second, I own a premium 100mm binocular telescope worth $1700. While I have read a few posts by some that have done better, I have a hard time using mine at ANY magnifications higher than 50x to 60x. The degree of accuracy required in the alignment of all the critical components is so exceptionally critical at higher magnifications that it is extremely difficult to build into even a premium instrument.
I really do hope you are not expecting any level of exceptional craftsmanship at this price level that you would expect to be able to reach these extreme levels of performance. I would suspect that EVEN IF the zoom function is of some high quality, you might get a range of performance between 25x and 40x to 50x. Beyond that, I wouldn't expect much of anything if it turns out to be usable at all.
Finally, if you find these need alignment, zoom binoculars are NOT adjustable by the average user. The must be sent to a repair shop. It would probably cost nearly as much to repair them as it would to buy a new pair.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2574
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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I have had experience with two pairs Zoom binos in recent years. A pair of Tasco 7-21X40 and my friend's Oberwerk 12-36X70mm.
My assesment of USEABLE magnification for the average zoom bino would be somewhat less than EdZ' estimate. My friend's 70mm Oberwerk can be use up to ~25-28X in the day time. After that resoluiton breaks down: The image gets bigger but it's "empty magnification". Obwerwerk also has a 10-30X60 model priced at $120. I would be happy if this pair can perform up to 20X. I did not go for either Oberwerk zooms becuase I have not found a pair with sufficient right diopter adjustment range for me.
My Tasco 7-21X offers dim image, poor resolution and narrow FOV at low power. It's not useable above 15X. I currently own about 12 pair of binos. This is the one pair I regret buying....
I know people who push their Zeiss 85mm FL and Pentax 80ED spotting scope to 60X and beyond. Just don't expect 80m zoom binos selling for less than the price of the zoom EP for one of those scopes above to reach the same level of optical performance.
Erik D
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The bottom line is: stay away from zoom binoculars. They do make nice paper weights and door stops. I would invest your money into a well researched, fixed magnification bino. As EdZ pointed out, there is plenty of reading material at CN (and elsewhere) that compare binoculars.
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Carlos,
I once actually "bought" one of those Sunagor 20 - 120 x 70mm megazoom binoculars -- but I only bought it knowing I could return it within 28 days for a FULL refund with no questions asked , as that was the deal at ARGOS.
I bought it without prejudice but with a 99% "common sense warning" that I would be returning it within the 28 days.
I was not wrong !
It was back in the Argos warehouse within 28 hours , let alone 28 days.
I simply could not bear to spend one more minute looking through it at ANY magnification.
I haven't the time now to go into all the bad aspects -- but all I can say is PLEASE trust me -- it was BAD !
Steer clear from these giant megazoom binoculars at ANY price.
Seriously , I wouldn't pay £10 for one , unless there was a serious shortage of alternative paperweights , door stops and candle -holders.
If I were you ,and wanted some BIG binoculars and a tripod, which you will CERTAINLY need, I would take a look at the Strathspey binocular site , linked from the thread of the same title which I posted a few days ago -- and take your pick from one of those.
Bear in mind a lightweight portable tripod will be of limited use with anything bigger than a 70mm binocular , and not all that great for 70mm either.
May I suggest forgetting the tripod , mount and fluid head and trying Image Stabilised binos instead ?
Just a suggestion , of course !
Good luck , Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Swedpat
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 1033
Loc: Boden, Sweden, Scandinavia
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Please explain to me: What do you mean with "paper weights and door stops"? It's an expression?
Patric
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*2,3x40 Constellation View Wide-Bino
*Leupold 6x30 Yosemite
*Leupold Katmai 6x32
*Swarovski SLCNew 7x42B
*Bresser (Lidl) 10x50
*Oberwerk 11x70
*No name (Kunming) 15x70
*Scopos ED APO 66
*Meade 5000 26mm Plössl, Vixen LV 10/5mm
Psalm 19:2
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carlos_dfc
sage
Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 210
Loc: Darlington, UK
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Thanks for the input guys!
I'll look into getting a pair if fixed-mag binos with 80mm or better objectives.
Don't think I can afford the image-stabilised ones though, but I already have a good tripod lying around the house (from when I used to be 'into' landscape photography)
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ED100 f900 Apo - 6" f750 Newt - 90mm f1250 mak - 15x70 - 10x50
10" ATM Dob (W.I.P.)
www.astro.forumup.co.uk
(Owner and Admin)
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2111
Loc: Washington, USA
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I would like to say a WORD about "zoom" binoculars here, so that newbies don't have to go to the archives:
*bleep*!
Boy, I feel better now.
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Patric,
For your information :
A paper -weight is any ( usually high density ) object placed on top of papers etc. to prevent them from being blown away in a wind or draught.
A door stop is a similarly simple device ,intended to prevent doors from closing unwantedly.
Most binoculars , actually make reasonable paper weights.
Some of the compacts CAN struggle to keep a hefty door ajar.
Hope this helps your understanding of this highly technical aspect of binocular usage,
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12601
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Hope this helps your understanding of this highly technical aspect of binocular usage
the highly technical aspect of ZOOM binocular usage
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks Kenny for that most excellent description of a paper weight and door stop. I thought Bill Cook would go on zoom fueled tirade, but I guess *bleep*! says it all. Anyway Carlos, I think you got the point and I think you made the right choice.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have yet to find a quality zoom bino. That being said, Brunton claims to have worked out all of the bugs and released a fairly pricey bino in their Epoch line.
ranburr
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Swedpat
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 1033
Loc: Boden, Sweden, Scandinavia
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If it's possible to produce zoom oculars with a good (or not too bad) performance for spottingscopes and cameras it has to be possible to do it for binoculars to. I think it will be more difficult with higher zoom ratios. Nikon had a 2 times zoom ratio in their former models (6-12x24 and 8-16x40) and likely they were the best zoom binos ever existed. The best is also to hold the magnification in a suitable level, under the magnifications there CA and loss of sharpness occur.
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*2,3x40 Constellation View Wide-Bino
*Leupold 6x30 Yosemite
*Leupold Katmai 6x32
*Swarovski SLCNew 7x42B
*Bresser (Lidl) 10x50
*Oberwerk 11x70
*No name (Kunming) 15x70
*Scopos ED APO 66
*Meade 5000 26mm Plössl, Vixen LV 10/5mm
Psalm 19:2
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2574
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
I have yet to find a quality zoom bino. That being said, Brunton claims to have worked out all of the bugs and released a fairly pricey bino in their Epoch line.
ranburr
Ranburr,
Thanks for the tip about Brunton Zooms. I was not aware of this development till you mentioned it. Is this the one?
http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?t=&pid=8651&m=135
For that kind of money they should be able to make a world class zoom bino. I think I would like more than 35mm objectives at 15X.
If I were spending $1,700+ for high power binos I would probably consider the Leica Duvoid 10+15X50 first. 5.6 deg FOV at 10X and 4.3 deg @15X!
Erik D
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rouseyfire
super member
Reged: 11/09/04
Posts: 143
Loc: loveland,colorado
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Swedpat: Good question. I too was wondering why the lack of good zoom binos when top spotting scopes can be made to work well. Kenny has the Zeiss Diascope and I believe he is a big fan of this spotting scope. I just took a look at the 80mm 20-60x at a local retail store and it looks super but at $1699.00 a bit too steep in price for my wallet.
I had the Diascope filed away on my wish/dream list but then in another thread, Kenny had said that he enjoyed the two eye view through binos better---so I'm not sure if a spotting scope like the Zeiss should be an "I want" item or not.
Kenny: Sorry to get off course but have you used your Zeiss Diascope with camera attached for photography? If so, how does it work? Better than afocual with a telescope for wildlife views? I was thinking of the Orion 80ED just to use as a 600mm lens for my SLR.
Sorry--back to zoom binos--if a pair could be make to work as well as some of the better spotting scopes, I believe it would be an instant success.
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glenn
Orion SVP 127 Mak
Pentax 8x32SP
Pentax 12x50
Oberwerk 20x80 deluxe II
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sftonkin
sage
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Kent, UK
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The opto-mechanics of a zoom binocular are a lot more complicated than the opto-mechanics of any form of monocular/spotting scope/zoom eyepiece. To quote what I wrote some months ago on this subject:
Not only must the eyepieces zoom at as-near-as-dammit exactly the same rate (which means absolutely no perceptible rocking of the bridge), but you are trying to make a system with moveable optical elements that must hold collimation, ideally to better than an arcminute where step (aka dipvergence, aka supravergence) is concerned if one is approaching ×30; for the ×125 that I have seen advertised for some zoom binoculars, this translates to better than 15 arcsec! Now, consider how many good quality centre-focus 30× binoculars you know of -- I don't know of any, and I am sure that part of the reason must be that it would be a feat of technological brilliance (not to say expense!) to bridge two eyepieces in such a way that they maintain collimation to within the tolerances that are required. (And remember that it is unlikely that they will have a "base tolerance" of zero error.)
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Stephen
Hindsight: The only truly diffraction-limited system
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Erik D, those are the ones. I was also curious as to whether anyone here ever tried out the short-lived Swift 16-40x80 Galaxy binos. These were a $700-$900 bino depending on where you got them. Swift claims that they actually worked as advertised. According to Swift, they did not sell well because no one was willing to spend that kind of money on zoom binos that were unknown. I would almost roll the dice on these, (if I could find any). They are the ideal size and magnification range for what I would want.
ranburr
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2574
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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ranburr,
I have seen the Swift16-40X80 zoom in an old catalog. I believe it was a rebadged Vixen:
http://www.vixen-global.com/MASTHEAD_PAGES/BINCOCULARS/o.htm#
Click on "Giant Series"
I have an Vixen catalog showing this model(16-40X80 BCF). FOV is 1.6-2.6 degs, ER 22-15mm and wt. 2,45 kg. Photo shows very close resmblence to the Orion Megaview.
I agree a 5.5 lb 80mm bino with exit pupil of 2-5mm is very desireable. It let you match the magnification to the object and sky condition. I have two Japanese giant binos: a 20X80 and a 25X100. Price were $400 and $900. They have excellent workmanship and mechanical construction. However, I've found that optics in some of newer 80 and 100mm Chinese binos to be slightly better. My Burgess 80mm LW has better edge sharpness than my $400 Japanese(Orion) 20X80. The Orion feels more rugged and should hold collimation better.
Erik D
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Erik D, thanks for that link. I called around to a few places today and was told that in about 4-6wks, Vixen will start importing most of their line into the U.S. I guess, I will roll the dice and see if these are worth the money.
ranburr
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Glenn,
Photography is not one of my hobbies , so I've never tried a camera with the Zeiss.
I'm sure there must be a few keen birders who have though.
Perhaps you might out by taking a look at www.birdforum.net
It would indeed be like a dream come true for me if I could have TWO 85mm Zeiss diascopes attached in perfect collimation throughout the 20 -60x power range , but alas it is not to be.
Stephen Tonkin explains why better than most.
Regards , Kenny
--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
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