ensign
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/16/08
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
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Are there any visual video observers out there?
#3684396 - 03/16/10 10:23 AM
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I jumped in to astro-video as an alternative to a large Dob for strictly visual observing. Now, it seems to me that astro-video has more affinity with the astro-photography gang.
While I am impressed with the beautiful images that people have produced with video cameras and software, the idea of using a computer after a day of cranking out code (my day job is software development) is less than appealing.
One of the beneficial effects of observing for me has been to help me decompress after a long day. I've been concerned that I'd made a poor choice and maybe should've invested in that large Dob.
I'm planning a few observing projects that I hope will take me to the next level in my observing. Among them, I hope to hunt down and observe the RASC's Finest NGC list with a Mallincam/C8 combination over the next while.
Is anyone else out there approaching astro-video from the viewpoint of a strictly visual observer?
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Maureen
Geek Mom
   
Reged: 04/27/05
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: ensign]
#3684430 - 03/16/10 10:41 AM
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My IIE is not a piece of astro-video equipment but it's covered in this forum because it's electronically enhanced equipment. While there are folks who do take pics through the eyepiece, I consider it to be primarily for real time visual observing. I know what you mean about wanting to keep it simple. It seems to me, that there is no right or wrong way to do this hobby. If you take delight in viewing with a Malincam in real time, without recording the images than why make it more complicated? (Or am I missing the point?)
I bought my IIE after consider all the options, including the Mallincam. One of the things that initially appealed to me about the Mallincam was that it was made for visual observing. If other observers have done more with it, that doesn't mean you have to. I eventually chose the IIE because for me, it's the perfect solution. It gives me a lot more aperture without having to get a bigger scope and it certainly keeps observing simple. And since I like to tinker, it's given me another project of really baffling my scope which will also improve the views with regular eyepieces. Maureen
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ScottAz
Fleet Navigator
   
Reged: 02/06/05
Loc: Kenosha, Wisconsin
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: Maureen]
#3684521 - 03/16/10 11:33 AM
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Hi Mike,
I have a big Dob (on platform), an 11” SCT, and a couple of equatorial-mounted grab and go scopes which I have always used with students and with the public. And, like you, I too have always thought of myself as a “strictly visual observer.” Unfortunately, however, and year after year, my high school students seem less and less able to wait in line and patiently take turns at the eyepiece. For this reason (and because a video display looks cool and reveals so much more as those photons build!) I have begun looking into the purchase of a Mallincam.
As I caught up on a lot of old threads in this forum, and in the Yahoo Mallincam user’s group, I have become increasingly impressed with both the camera and the people who use them. The stacked and processed images are – to me – true works of art. It is really cool how an object, say M42, can look so different to so many people and still be gorgeous!
But after reading Steve Massey and Steve Quirk’s book “Deep-Sky Video Astronomy” I have decided that (for now) complex editing procedures and big software packages just wouldn’t be right for me. (Just not my “cup of tea.”)
Thus I am now in search of the perfect camera for real-time video observations with students, the public, and with my family. (My wife occasionally humors me with a trip to the backyard observatory even though she hates the cold, the mosquitoes, the wildlife … and couldn’t care less about the really cool hardware.)
So the big choice is: which Mallincam? The VSS and Hyper Color Plus look like overkill for my intended use (although I suppose that I could “grow into” them) so I may try to find a well cared for Hyper Color. Maybe a wireless Hyper Color … now that would be cool!
Good luck with your RASC’s Finest NGC hunt. I am still trying to get through the Herschel 400 with my Obsession … just can’t seem to get enough clear nights!
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ensign
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/16/08
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: ScottAz]
#3684705 - 03/16/10 12:54 PM
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Thanks for your replies, Maureen and Scott. You've helped to affirm my decision to get into astro-video. I was at a club meeting last week where the photography types outnumber visual observers by a wide margin.
While I respect and am very impressed by these folks, I find that their outlook and goals on our (I hesitate to say "hobby" - with me it's closer to an avocation) are quite different from mine. It's good to find out that there are others with a similar bent to mine!
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Lorence
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/15/08
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out there?
[Re: ensign]
#3684753 - 03/16/10 01:13 PM
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I'm building my observatory mainly for the purpose of video astronomy. The system will be completely remote controlled from my house.
I intend to use the observatory for visual use. I have gigabytes of beautiful asrtophotos that I could not equal with the equipment I have available to me now. The pros will always be several steps ahead of me so I'll just have to be content with sitting on my couch and panning the cameras across the sky. Try not to feel too sorry for me. 
Lorence
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
   
Reged: 09/11/06
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out there?
[Re: ensign]
#3684780 - 03/16/10 01:22 PM
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Mike, I'm mostly doing it for either visual - direct to my SPECO (as a way of drilling through LP, etc.)... or I have (in the past) done some broadcasting.
I do NOT use it for any form of "capture" and AP use cases... that is what AP oriented CCD cameras are for, IMHO...
It also gets a good "assisted visual" workout when I do periodic outreaches...
Clear enough skies
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greg
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/25/05
Loc: Central Ca.
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: ScottAz]
#3684810 - 03/16/10 01:29 PM
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Hi Mike,
I started out in this hobby as a visual observer about 6 years ago. I moved from a 4.5" reflector to a 13", then a 16" and topped out at a 30" F/4.5 by my 2nd year in the hobby, all because I wanted to see more...... Faint fuzzies weren't enough for me, I found myself looking at, and trying to figure out how to buy a 36” scope…..I’m a product of Telescope advertising…. You know the ones, pictures of nice big Galaxies on the boxes of 4” Telescopes
Even with the 30" from great dark sites I was going back to the same objects over and over..... The ones that showed me some really good detail and some showed color..... but for all the work involved I just was not getting the return that I wanted for all my effort, I was questioning weather or not I wanted to stay in the hobby.... I was on my way out....
Then I found the MallinCam... I used it in my 30" with good results, but quickly found I needed better tracking and a wider FOV to max out the Camera's potential, So I found myself going down in Aperture.
What really Sold me on the mallinCam was that it could be used Live without processing and thats how I use it with a Speco Monitor, sometimes I use it with a Computer but only to Broadcast Live, not to capture and process images.
I sold the 30” and used some of the money to build a fast 16” on EQ mount for use at my home location, I also bought a CGE and Meade 10” S/N for darksite trips.... I’m back in the Hobby for the long Term….. And as a side note I put A LOT of money from the 30” back in the Bank……
The only visual I do at home is Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, and the Moon
From dark sites I like to look at a VERY few objects through an eyepiece if there is a big enough Scope around, but even then I need to see more….
From my heavily light polluted Backyard even with my 10” F/4 reflector I can see WAY more detail in objects Live Without the Processing that goes with CCD Imaging, and can even see detail in objects that I couldn’t even see with my 30” and an Eyepiece from a dark site……
I have Two Good eyepieces left a 26 T5 Nagler and a 13mm Ethos that I will keep for now to use in other peoples scopes at Dark sites.
I know and respect people who like the challenge of spending a lot of time searching out Faint Fuzzies , Using averted vision and all that.... I myself even like to be dark adapted and under dark skies, but averted vision is not for me ....
What they are using averted vision to see I can see Spiral structure and even color in star forming regions with the MallinCam and a smaller Scope.
So Long story Short…. Video Astronomy is not for everyone, But, The MallinCam Saved me when it comes to staying in this Hobby.
What I can do with a smaller scope and the MallinCam Live without all the processing that goes with CCD imaging, and from my Light Polluted backyard, Still Amazes me, even years after I first started using it.....
GregW
Edited by greg (03/16/10 02:13 PM)
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Mike Harvey
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/01/04
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: ensign]
#3685100 - 03/16/10 03:54 PM
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ME! 
I simply have no interest in long, multiple exposures and post-processing. If I wanted that, I would have gotten a 'traditional' imager from SBIG, ATIK, et.al.
I only use my Mallincam for 'visual' purposes and it performs magnificently. I'm able to actually "see" tremendous detail in DSO's that aren't even POSSIBLE to see AT ALL at the eyepiece.
Mike
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/11/04
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: Mike Harvey]
#3685185 - 03/16/10 04:26 PM
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What Mike said! I bought the Mallincam because I wanted to be visual, sure I have a computer out in the obsevatory, sure I've bought a few Astro cameras over the years, but that is just not my cup of tea.
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akjudge
member
Reged: 02/25/08
Loc: Western NY, USA
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: Chris Schroeder]
#3685669 - 03/16/10 09:00 PM
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I use a Stellacam 2. It allows me to visit 20 to 30 DSO's per night. Very fast. It lets me (and any visitors) "see" things on the monitor that I can not see with an eyepiece. While not in color, it nevertheless produces great 8 second images. I save the images as I am looking at them so on cloudy nights (Western NY prevalent condition) I can play around with processing them. I may someday upgrade to a better scope (aperture fever), but I will never get rid of the Stellacam. It is the best value-for-the-dollar I have ever made.
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DeepSpace67
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/13/06
Loc: Prairie Village, KS, USA
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: akjudge]
#3686055 - 03/17/10 12:34 AM
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Visual only using the MallinCam Hyper Plus (last nine months), and it has completely changed and enhanced the hobby for the better! Public Outreach and Star Parties are great, people just start to gather around the monitor and marvel at the images. MallinCam multiples scope aperture by about 5x, and shows beautiful color even from a light polluted back yard. MallinCam has dramatically increased the number of visible targets, so much so, that this star-hopper will soon switch to a COL, there's just too much to see.
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ngchunter
super member
Reged: 10/09/09
Loc: Sarasota, FL
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: DeepSpace67]
#3686410 - 03/17/10 08:50 AM
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Kinda like Chris, I come from a more photographic background, and now I'm going to test the waters on the visual side by playing around with some inexpensive security cams that have frame stacking ability. I'll still do photography either for special sky events and a few times a year when I can get to dark skies, but it just takes too long to do a good polar alignment, optimize the autoguiding, etc every time I want to see deep. I don't have a house where I can build a pier, let alone an observatory, so I'm really keen to simplify things and reduce the time it takes me to start set up and tear down. Only needing an Alt-Az alignment would go a very long way to doing that. I also want the ability to broadcast, and while it can be done with live stacking from my dSLR, it's complicated and demanding on the computer. From everything I've seen, video astronomy is the solution. I'm sure this will enable me to get out there and observe on a much more regular basis.
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jgraham
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/02/04
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: ngchunter]
#3687081 - 03/17/10 02:33 PM
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I'm an ol' visual observer from way back and I frequently use my cameras to observe (a CCD camera in my case). As much as I love imaging (and photometry, and spectroscopy) there are times I just want to observe visually or with my camera. The advantage of my camera are numerous, but briefly, it allows me to easily go deep and I get a nice record of my obervations to boot by grabbing a quick set of images. When I'm in observing mode I use 1 second exposures with my camera (a DSI Pro III) running in live mode to locate and center objects, then increase the exposure and start stacking images to take a closer look. Usually I've got a pretty decent image within a couple of minutes and I can play with the real-time processing functions to enhance and study the objects. I'll sometimes also have a visual scope set up at the same time to take a peek (these images make the best darned star maps). Something I really enjoy is to use my camera to go on an NGC-hop around a constellation; I'll swing by every NGC, IC, or whatever object marked on my star atlas just to take a peek. Sometimes I'll find a really neat surprise, and that's a lot of fun.
Have fun!
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genedalton
member
Reged: 12/10/05
Loc: South Louisiana
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: jgraham]
#3688593 - 03/18/10 08:58 AM
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John, I like the idea of using my Meade DSI II for obseving as well...don't need to cool the chip, just let the software dark subtract and stack. Typically I get a decent visual in a couple of one minute exposures and I go back to my charts and look for the next target. By the time I get back to my laptop I have a nice image and have the option of saving it to file. I am able to see many Abell clusters and faint galaxies I otherwise would not see. GENE
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jgraham
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/02/04
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: genedalton]
#3688994 - 03/18/10 12:39 PM
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That's neat! After a session last night getting caught up on my current list of variable stars I switch over to observing mode and enjoyed the rest of the evening before bringing my gear in. What struck me about this observing mode is that it's not about using my camera to take a neat picture, but using my camera to 'see' objects that you couldn't even dream of before. Back in the olde days I was happy observing asteroids down to around magnitude 11ish, now I routinely observe objects as faint as 16-17th magnitude without breaking a sweat. Last night I was hunting tiny planetaries to calibrate my newly re-installed Star Analyser 100.
Very neat stuff...
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jim molinari
member
   
Reged: 02/02/08
Loc: California
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out there?
[Re: ensign]
#3689980 - 03/18/10 07:20 PM
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Hi Mike ... In the past I did astrophotograpy and found it enjoyable and with its own merits, but, now it is too involved for me. I have been using a Mallincam (Hyper and Hyper Plus models) for some time now. I do nothing but visual observing using a Watec 3.5" monitor at very dark sky locations. I have observed almost all of the Abell planetaries and Hickson, Shahkbazian, Rose compact galaxy groups. Even with my C11, Hoag's Object is no problem. I have seen Gyulbadaghian's nebula (20")and many other extremely faint objects outside of the reach of my telescopes' magnitude limits without the Mallincam. And, as you know, the detail displayed in brighter objects is amazing. I like the relative ease of planning/observing, ability to observe more, and satisfaction I get with "visual only" use of the Mallincam. Jim
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PEterW
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/02/06
Loc: SW London, UK
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out there?
[Re: jim molinari]
#3692220 - 03/19/10 05:42 PM
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John, any more details. I have wondered if using a cooled AstroCCD taking repeated short (few second) exposures and using DeepSkyStacker Live to show me the live result as it builds up would equate to using an astrovideo system? I am keen to use H-alpha filtration to get past most of the local lighting issues. Please share more details.
Thanks
PEterW
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jgraham
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/02/04
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: PEterW]
#3692269 - 03/19/10 05:59 PM
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It'd be interesting to try. Cooled CCDs are particularly useful when taking long exposures, it may not be needed for the short expoures I typically use (never more than 60 seconds). However, narrowband observing requires much longer exposures. I observe from my back yard where the light pollution is pretty bad, but a good imaging light pollution filter works great.
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PEterW
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/02/06
Loc: SW London, UK
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: jgraham]
#3693121 - 03/20/10 05:43 AM
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Assuming that SCT are most commonly used, what focal reducers give the best result. I understand that the f3.3 reducer can vignette a lot and also has field curvature unless it is positioned correctly with result to the detector? The Sony chips (need to be the EXView models) do not need dark subtraction and probably not much cooling either. I'd be interested in seeing some results you obtain and your experiences.
Cheers
PEterW
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jgraham
Postmaster
   
Reged: 12/02/04
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
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Re: Are there any visual video observers out ther
[Re: PEterW]
#3693221 - 03/20/10 08:08 AM
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The f/3.3 focal reducers work very well with small type 1/3 CCDs, but they have problems with anything larger. The f/6.3 reducers work well with larger chips. The Meade DSI's I use have the Sony EXview chips and they do need dark subtraction, particularly when the temperature gets much above 10C, however, Meade's software can automatically select and subtract darks in real-time so that's not an issue. You can also do basic image processing in real-time and that can be very helpful when observing.
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