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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Hello fellow big bino viewers,
My first post! I just picked up a new pair of Burgess 15x70's (same as the other Chinese binos) and have a questions their colomation (sp?). Can people with big binos try this for me and pos the results here:
Observe an astronomical target (stars, planets, etc.) through a closed window. Example, through you living room window.
Thanks. I can't get the images to merge in this case. I had a bit of suspicion when I got the binos at the shop that they may be out a bit, but was looking inside the store at close objects. At home (daylight) through a window at more distance, things looked better. At nightfall, I tried the sky but couldn't get the images to merge easily. It took a lot of effort.
Taking them outside, things merged much more easily, but I can't be sure if it still perfect (as compared to my Nikon Action IV 10x50's). The views were great, but I think that may have been more the extra magnification and aperature.
My 10x50's work fine through a window, as to either side of the 15x70 by themselves, as well as my scopes.
Is this just a product of the bigger bino, or is something out on mine?
I like obseving from inside during the winter as it gets *REALLY* cold here in Ottawa, Canada, and I'm not really a winter person!  Some observing even under not perfect conditions is still better than no observing!
Thanks so much in advance!
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen! 
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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The distortions caused by window plate glass can be so bad as to distort anything observed. Observing thru plate glass windows is NOT recommended.
All 15x70 binoculars are not the same. That is a falacy perpetrated on the internet by people who look at the outward design and say "Gee they look the same, must be the same". Internal differences include size of prisms and coatings (or lack of) on some or all glass surfaces.
Checking allignment of binoculars requires clear path observing (no plate glass) and mounted binoculars, unless they are so badly out of allignment you can see it hand held. If that is the case return them.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Quote:
The distortions caused by window plate glass can be so bad as to distort anything observed. Observing thru plate glass windows is NOT recommended.
Thanks for the insight. So the image merging problem is caused by the plate glass. What factor is it exactly that causes this? Is it the extra magnification (15x vs. 10x) or the aperature (70 vs. 50)? As I said, the 10x50's deliver the same image quality to a telescope in terms of getting a single image. There is no effort at all to merge in the Nikon.
I completely agree that observing through plate glass is far from ideal. But it's surprisingly not as bad as one might think. Detail is still available and I can still go to within a couple (or less) magnitudes in terms of depth as compared to outside.
The main things I notice are softer images (less contrast) and some ghosting on brighter objects. I can still make out the main cloud bands on Jupiter through my ST80 at less than 20x. I also did a mini-messier marathon this past year from my living room using a combo of my 10x50's, the ST80, and my old Tasco 4.5 newt. Managed around 25 objects down to mag 9.6, and some of the open clusters were quite nice. Even had the fireplace on and some nice music playing! It sure was a lot more comfortable than the -15c and heavy frost outside! 
But definitely not ideal.
Quote:
All 15x70 binoculars are not the same. That is a falacy perpetrated on the internet by people who look at the outward design and say "Gee they look the same, must be the same". Internal differences include size of prisms and coatings (or lack of) on some or all glass surfaces.
I honsetly can't say because I don't know. I was told at the shop where I got them (a very reputable shop in TO) that they are the same as the Celestron version. They are definitely fully multi-coated on the front objectives and the ep's (green tint). Optically the appear nearly as good as my Nikon's. Not quite as sharp on the outer 25-30% of the field, but still very good for the cost.
Thanks,
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen!
--------------------
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Gord,
I'm don't think the window glass would be the cause of images not being merged. And it's not magnification or aperture. If the images are not merged, probably miscollimated.
Color provides no clear indication of the quality of coatings. Coatings that are too thick can appear green. But I don't think that is the case with your Burgess.
Pentax SMC appear purple. Orion Ultraview coatings appear blue/green/purple, depending on what angle you look at them. Single layer Magnesium Fluride (blue) coatings if applied properly can be better than improperly applied multi coatings.
Lot's of observers own the Burgess and are happy. They may be the same as the Celestrons.
I do not think they are fully multi-coated on all surfaces. That might be why you see ghosting. If it only occurs on bright objects, shouldn't be a problem.
If images are out very slightly, you could adjust yourself. Check out the articles side of CN in the binocular section for a description of the steps to collimatiopn.
15x70s will definitely provide for some nice views.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Gord;
Welcome to Cloudy Nights.
You are in good hands with EdZ.
ED,
Good morning, thanks for all your insights into Binos.
Keith
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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Quote:
Welcome to Cloudy Nights.
Thanks! I have been lurking on the forum and CN for a while. Love the site, lots of great info, and great people too. Very mature and resourcefull crowd, reminds me a lot of another virtual community I am part of - TDI Club.
Ed,
Thanks for the help. That article is great, very informative. Is this something (minor adjustments) that should be attempted by an owner (like newtownian collomation)? Do companies generally mind is owners attempt to correct small things themselves, or do they generally insist on doing it themselves?
I did some measurements based on you insight. Mine are definitely out. Specifics are:
-vertical divergence is too small to measure
-horizontal convergence is present, measured at 15' of arc (approx 1/4 of a degree)
-exit pupils are nice and round on both sides
To me, this seem like a lot, but I don't know what is considered within spec. I know I am getting kind of dizzy using them cause I have to look cross-eyed! 
Right now I am using them only as a 15x 70mm scope. Jupiter still looks nice and is just hinting at showing the main cloud bands. Can't wait till these things work as they should.
Thanks,
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen!
--------------------
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Gord,
When I first saw this topic, I thought it was about binoviewers! Mmmm.. what the heck is a BIG binoviewer?  Then I figured you meant tall and large-sized amateur astronomers who use binoculars to view the sky. I'm 6'4" tall, so I decided to read your post 
I also observe through my window in the winter (particularly when it's below 20* outside like it is today), though I look at birds, not stars, but I have occasionally viewed the moon and planets when they were low enough to see through my front windows. I have noticed more distortion at higher power than lower. In fact, I have a zoom binocular so it's easy to compare. I suspect that higher power magnifies the imperfections in the glass just as higher magnification magnifies the turbulence in the air with telescopes. As I move around the window, I can see that some parts are smoother than others. However, I have never seen double images looking through the window except with bins that are out of collimation. I have had bad luck with miscollimated Chinese bins, and I know my experience isn't unique. Chinese optics have come a long way, but the QC still isn't up to par with Jap. and European manufacturers IMO.
Besides Ed's excellent collimation article on Cloudy Nights http://www.cloudynights.com/howtos2/binoc-collimatin.htm
you may also find Oberwerk's collimation Webpage useful:
http://www.oberwerk.com/support/collimate.htm
Even though it's written for Obies, the Burgess is very similar.
However, do not try to collimate bins while looking through the window! The distortion caused by the imperfections in the glass will throw you off. I tried to collimate my bins using a Skywindow and had poor results (the Skywindow mirror can add distortions, particularly when it has not sufficiently cooled down).
As far as the ghosting and contrast, that is probably due to the bin not being FMC, as Ed mentioned. I had the 20X80 Burgess, and though I liked the views very much (and it was properly collimated! - first for me with a Chinese bin), I need FMC on big bins from my light polluted skies. With lower power/small aperture bins, I can get away with fully coated.
Exit pupil is also a factor in contrast. I find that 3-4mm works best for my skies (also good for compensating for my astigmatism), but at 5mm the contrast starts to fade, at 6mm the skies begin to wash out and fainter stars disappear, and at 7mm, the skies look brighter through the bins than naked eye, if that's possible.
Good Luck! with your new Big Binos, Big Bino Viewer. 
Brock
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Gord,
15 arcmin of miscollimation is a very serious issue. needs attention pronto.
Manufacturers encourage user adjustment. Notice Brock's link to instructions for collimation on the Oberwerk site.
Rough collimation can be done in daylight on a distant object, but final collimation should be performed on stars.
If you have a jeweler's screw-driver and can manage with a flashlight in the dark, it's really fairly easy to perform. I think the hardest part for most people is letting there eyes relax so they can see the two separate images drift together.
If you cannot see any mis-shpen exit pupil, it is almost impossible to tell which prism has moved. To collimate without causing error on one side, the only alternative is to make small adjustment to both sides. Keep track ouf what you are doing with the screw-driver, even if that means keeping notes.
You need to get that collimation error down to within a very few arcmin. It is not necessary to be dead on. If putting the images dead on results in a mis-shapen exit pupil, you are better off with a few arcmin separation and a nice round exit pupil.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Gord and Ed,
I didn't see any #s in Ed's article on the acceptable limits for miscollimation (undoubtedly I need to go well below the limit due to my extra sensitivity to this problem). What are the limits (in arc seconds) for the different types of miscollimation, and how do you measure this? Thanks.
--------------------
Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Ed,
Yes, I looked at the Oberwerk page and the instructions sound very good, much more straight forward than I had imagined.
I don't know if it is just one side or both, but as long as the image is the same on both sides (or very close) and the pupils remain round, then I guess it doesn't matter if both have to be adjusted.
How much of a range is there in prism adjustment where the exit pupil stays round? A few armin's?
I guess if the prisms have been adjusted to edge of their range (still round pupils) on both sides and things are still not together, then the only way to fix things is in the front objectives?
How much shaking can these things take before moving? I'm very carefull with my stuff (never drop or set down hard), but is a bumpy ride in the car enough to do it? I would hope they are more robust than a newtonian which are really pretty hardy.
Brock,
Sorry for the confusion about the thread! 6'4", that's pretty big. I knew there was a reason I was building my tripod/parallelogram a good bit bigger than I needed it.
Not sure what spec is acceptable, but I figure if you can see the difference (left vs. right), then you should be able to correct it.
I'm just curious as to how well it holds it.
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen!
--------------------
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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http://www.cloudynights.com/breviews/4way-2.htm#quality
Go to this article and click on "Quality of Build"
then page down a little.
As magnification increases, the limits of error decrease.
15 arcmin is beyond the limits of even a low power binocular.
I'm curious, how did you measure the extent of the error. I know how I do it. I probably explain it in this article. But I'd like to hear how you did it.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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How did I measure it?
I was looking at Jupiter and noticed it didn't appear exactly in the same spot in the field from the left to right side. Not hugely noticeable since it was centered in the field, but it just didn't seem right.
To confirm, I moved Jupiter to the edge of the field (on the left say) on one side and then noted it's position on the other side. Repeating the same test for the other side gave the same result.
Exact distance appeared to be the distance of the Jupiter and moons system (at the time). Not an exact measure since the moons move, and Jupiter itself being a little less than 1 arcmin was not really big enough to use.
So, I moved to the moon. Repeating the same test as above gave me approx half a moon diameter of difference in field from left to right. I could put the full moon halfway out of the field on one side, and the whole thing would be visible in the other!!
Not an exact measure, but a good approximation. Smaller deviations could be measured with Juptier itself (again almost 1 arcmin) if things were only a few arcmins out.
I also tried (during the day) using a large apartment building about 0.5 km away that had lots of detail, to get an idea of how different the fields are from one side to the other. No (easy) way to get an exact number in terms of error, but it gives something to compare on side to other.
Sorry for being so wordy.
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen!
--------------------
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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The moon. That's a good measure.
I use a wide double star of known separation. There are a few. Nu Draco is 62". I call it 1 arcmin. I use that one for measuring when I get close to within 2-3 arcmin. If you check the coordinates between to very close stars, Alpha Cap, Theta Tau, Alcor/Mizar, in my example a known double, and you view for collimation, you can tell how much you are out. You will need a very close double like Nu Dra when you get your adjustment in close so you can tell if you are close enough to stop.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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neven
super member
Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 144
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Good on you Brock,
saved that sites for collimation. Just got my 15x70 Barska (from Hunters Mall), seems no collimation needed here in Sydney.
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Celestron 8GPS
Skywatcher 15012
Barska 15x70
Solarmax40
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Gord
sage
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 497
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Hello again everyone,
Just wanted to give an update on my bino collimation woes. I finally had a chance to look at it this weekend, and the weather finally co-operated at little too.
I followed the instructions for the Oberwek's, but discovered that things seem to the a little different with my Burgess. The tilt adjust screws are in the same spot, but adjustment proceedure seems to be opposite of the Obe's: clockwise is apart in the Burg's vs. together in the Obe.
Not a big deal once i figured it out, but I seem to have also found a spot in the adjustment where that rule has changed to be opposite of what it was 
Things are much better now than they were, but still not perfect. Right now, they are somewhere between 2 and 3 arcmin out in horiz, and the pupils are still nice and round looking straight through on either side.
Vertical is another story. Looking at the images through both sides at once with the relaxed vision (to get two images), I have got things looking pretty good. However, when I move the oject to either the top or bottom edge of field, then they are out by again maybe 2-3 arcmins. I don't get it unless the fields are different, or things change at different parts of the FOV.
It looks certainly better now than before (not going extremely cross-eyed), but now that I have got the hang of that relaxed eyes, two images thing it is very easy to still see the small difference that is left. Sometimes I don't even have to try, I get two un-merged images that don't want to join!! Gotta re-train my brain!
Anyway, I'm gonna give it another go and see if I can make it better. I'm getting good at making the adjustments!
-Gord
--------------------
* Celestron C10/Normand Fullum primary
* Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum primary
* Orion StarBlast
* Orion Apex 102
* SkyWatcher 80ED
* Celestron CG5a mount
* MallinCam Pro & Color II
* Lots of other astro toys
...and the best wife I could ever dream of for letting it all happen!
--------------------
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Gord ,
I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems there but at least it sounds like you are getting somewhere.
One thing your experience DOES prove beyond reasonable doubt is that fact that not ALL of these big Chinese binoculars are one and the same , as some people seem to insist upon in spite of people such as Ed Z and myself indicating otherwise.
Regards -- Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Gord,
I have the same vertical alignment problem with my Obie 15X70. With the harsh weather, I haven't had a chance to fiddle more. Let me know if you solve the vertical alignment problem. Thanks!
--------------------
Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12492
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Neither left barrel screw nor right barrel screw will move the image exactly horizontal or vertical. Both of these screws move the image at an angle, and the movement caused by the opposing screws causes image movement nearly perpendicular to the movement from the other screw. One moves approx along a line from 2oclock to 8oclock and the screw on the other barrel would move that image along a line approx from 10 oclock to 4oclock. Images that appear out in a horizontal or vertical almost always would require adjustment of screws on both barrels.
Eyes can tollerate horizontal convergence more-so than horizontal divergence. The eyes cannot tolerate hardly any vertical misallignment.
My personal opinion is that any NEW binoculars that arrive with a need for collimation should be returned to the seller. This is not an acceptable consumer product. I can understand the need for adjustment after some period of handling and use, but not before. I think it a sad state when the consumer need be responsible for putting a NEW product in working order. Send them back for exchange.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2473
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Hello and Happy New Year to All!
It's my first post on this forum but I have "Met" many of you on other Binocular forums so I feel very much at home here. :-))
I am in complete agreement with Prof. edz on the subject of binocular collimation: The consumer should NOT have to collimate a NEW pair of binos regardless of price. If a new pair of bino is out of collimation I'd return it to the dealer/importer for an exchange. If the second pair have the same problem I'd request a refund and look elsewhere. I shop around for quality optics at the lowest price but to me any new binocular that can't not hold collimation in shipping is not worth considering.
I have studied Ed's collimation instructions in detail but have not attempted the procedure myself. To me there is a lot more to bino collimation compared to sighting-in a rifle or pistol scope. I am quite comfortable doing the later but do not feel I have the skill or patience to do a good job on the former.
Thanks to importers such as Oberwerk and Burgess we now have access to 70, 80mm or larger binos at very affortable prices. I am impressed by the optical quality of my Oberwerk 12X60 and Burgess 20X80 LW every time I look thru them. But I also wish more rugged model with consistent QC are available. Even if the price of the upgraded model cost $100 more they would still be excellent buys. I hope Kevin B and Bill B find manufacturing partners to offer a "Premium" line Big Binos in the near future.
Erik D
PS, Kenny J: I see I have a lot of catching-up here and I look forward to it.
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10081
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Hello again Erik !
Good to see you on here and I'm sure all the"usual suspects" will share with me a warm welcome to you.
I look forward to reading more of your valued opinions.
I think my personal opinions on collimation and the need for improvements to certain aspects of Chinese binocular Q.C or even design trends are sufficiently well documented to resist adding any further comment here.
Kind regards --Kenny
--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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