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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
New APM 100mm ED - first impressions
      #3986454 - 08/16/10 03:17 PM

Just had my first light with this binocular under truly dark skies.
I'm SO impressed that I'm planning to write a full review in the next few

Just for reference... I've owned Miyauchi BJ 100's, Nikon 20X120, Fujinon 25X150 and Vixen 25X125's ( in addition to countless smaller binoculars).

While the APM ED's look like the Miyauchis all you need to do is take a look thru them to realize this is a different animal.

While they, of course, don't have the light grasp of the 120's or 150's - they compensate with sharper images across the field... Not to mention, you can carry the APM's onboard a plane in a backpack!

Brief impression: no noticeable CA except the slightest hint on the lunar limb. Stars are beautiful pinpoints out to the last 10% (or less) of the field. In fact, unless there was a bright star right at the edge, I had to deliberately LOOK to even notice any aberrations.

I was pleasantly surprised that the sharpness and excellent contrast were exhibited in BOTH the 23X and the 46X eyepieces.

I have a reputation for being so finicky about my optics that I rarely keep ANY of them for long.
The APM 100 ED's may prove to be the exception. At this price I've never seen better binoculars!


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hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3986550 - 08/16/10 04:07 PM

Quote:


I have a reputation for being so finicky about my optics that I rarely keep ANY of them for long.
The APM 100 ED's may prove to be the exception. At this price I've never seen better binoculars!




C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S !


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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/17/05

Loc: Connecticut
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: hallelujah]
      #3986596 - 08/16/10 04:27 PM

This is like a breath of fresh air. It's great that you're happy with them. That list is like a who's who of giant binoculars. If these APM's work as well or better than those, you've got a keeper as far as I'm concerned. Congratulation are certainly in order.

Any further info or pictures or impressions would be most welcome.

Edited by pcad (08/16/10 06:11 PM)


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KennyJ
The British Flash
*****

Reged: 04/27/03

Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: pcad]
      #3986760 - 08/16/10 05:56 PM

Are these made in China , Mike ?

Kenny


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: KennyJ]
      #3987260 - 08/16/10 10:43 PM

Quote:

Are these made in China , Mike ?

Kenny




Hi Kenny....I don't know where they are made but it wouldn't surprise me if they were made in China.
Regardless of where....they did a great job!

Mike


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Andresin150
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/14/07

Loc: Bogotá - La Calera / Colombia
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3987386 - 08/16/10 11:40 PM

are those 45 deg or RA?

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daniel_h
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/08/08

Loc: VIC, Australia
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Andresin150]
      #3987402 - 08/16/10 11:55 PM

the company told me they are made in china

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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3988361 - 08/17/10 12:57 PM

Quote:


I'm SO impressed that I'm planning to write a full review in the next few





As a fellow owner I look forward to your detailed review.

Quote:

Not to mention, you can carry the APM's onboard a plane in a backpack!




Yes! They sure do pack a punch in a lightweight package.

Quote:


Brief impression: no noticeable CA except the slightest hint on the lunar limb.





The CA is well controlled, but at higher power you do start to see a color blur. Curiously, though, the blur doesn't seem to rob the image of sharpness as much as I have observed in other optics with the same apparent level of color correction.

Quote:


Stars are beautiful pinpoints out to the last 10% (or less) of the field. In fact, unless there was a bright star right at the edge, I had to deliberately LOOK to even notice any aberrations.

I was pleasantly surprised that the sharpness and excellent contrast were exhibited in BOTH the 23X and the 46X eyepieces.





Hmm, I can't say I had the same impression if you speak of the included eyepiece sets. I found the 23X set was sharp until the outer 20-30%. I find my Pentax XW20 start to show some softness in the outer 10%.

I personally found the included 46X set quite soft starting at halfway to the field edge. I don't know if the stock eyepieces have changed since I ordered mine though. In comparison, my Pentax XW10 are sharp to the edge.

However, if you find the stock eyepieces acceptable, try some premium eyepiece sets and you should be blown away. The on-axis sharpness is a strength of these binos in my opinion too.

Quote:


The APM 100 ED's may prove to be the exception. At this price I've never seen better binoculars!




Yeah -- I bet you got 'em at the sale price which was quite a bargain.

---
Michael Mc


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Andresin150]
      #3988613 - 08/17/10 02:48 PM

Quote:

are those 45 deg or RA?




45 deg.


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3988695 - 08/17/10 03:18 PM

Hi Michael.....YES...I grabbed them at the close-out price!

I may have gotten an exceptional set of eyepieces with my binos.
As indicated, I was pleasantly surprised.

Based on previous experiences, I fully expected the 46X set to be soft and practically unusable.
Instead, I found myself using them more often than the 23X!

My 13mm ETHOS' won't reach focus. The only others I've tried, so far, are the 21mm Denkmeiers and did not find them to be appreciably better than the 23X set that came with the binocular.
Knowing the quality of the DENK'S, this speaks highly of the supplied oculars!

CA, even with the 46X eyepieces was simply not a problem. Even on the moon, the fringing was minimal.

More to come......

Mike


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Wes James
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/12/06

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3988705 - 08/17/10 03:22 PM

Congratulations on a good 100mm 45* bino!!!

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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Wes James]
      #3988736 - 08/17/10 03:44 PM

Almost forgot to mention.....
Since I was at Yellowstone, I also used the binocs for daytime wildlife viewing and found NO, ZERO, NADA, color fringing at 23X.
Images were razor-sharp and wonderfully 'contrasty'. Set up next to a top-of-the-line KOWA spotting scope (I think it was 82mm), the views with the APM 100's were noticeably more detailed (and being able to use both eyes was, of course, vastly superior).

This was also a pleasant surprise.

Mike


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Photoner
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/06/06

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3988972 - 08/17/10 05:47 PM

Mike what are you using to mount these 16lbs fellows?

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Photoner]
      #3989689 - 08/17/10 11:50 PM

Mike,

Have you given them the Flash Light test where you shine the light down throught the Objective lenses to see how the inner tubes look like. Are they nice and clean?

BB

Edited by beachchairbill (08/18/10 02:26 PM)


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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/09/05

Loc: Northeastern Cal
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3989702 - 08/18/10 12:00 AM

Quote:


I may have gotten an exceptional set of eyepieces with my binos.

Mike




How does one get an exceptional set of eyepieces?



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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Photoner]
      #3989704 - 08/18/10 12:00 AM

Quote:

Mike what are you using to mount these 16lbs fellows?




I'm using a Manfrotto 504 HD head and, for my trip to Yellowstone, I mounted it on a 546 tripod. The entire setup was small and light enough to carry-on the plane in a padded cordura bag. The head is rated for 19 lbs. and the combo was very user-friendly and rock steady.

For home use I'm putting the head on a heavier Manfrotto 475 tripod that features a geared center post and the height of the binocular can be easily adjusted without having to make changes in the leg lengths....just crank the handle!

Mike


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3989715 - 08/18/10 12:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I may have gotten an exceptional set of eyepieces with my binos.

Mike




How does one get an exceptional set of eyepieces?






Could have just been "luck-of-the-draw". Or Markus may have changed the supplier or design of the eyepieces (I'll ask him).

Whatever the reason...I'm not having the issues Michael Mc has desribed.


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #3989735 - 08/18/10 12:27 AM

Quote:

Mike,

Hve yuo given them the Flash Light test where you shine the light down throught the Objective lenses to see how the inner tubes look like. Are they nice and clean?

BB




Just did it. One small dust speck in one tube.
There is a screw about half-way down on the bottom of each tube that has pushed through the black lining and appears as a white spot.
If my OCD was really acting up I'd want to put a dab of black paint over them. But, they don't seem to have any negative affect.
Anyway, for me, the proof is in the performance and this binocular is remarkably good.


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3989819 - 08/18/10 01:40 AM

Quote:


Whatever the reason...I'm not having the issues Michael Mc has desribed.




The fact that the stock eyepieces are not sharp to the field edge is not a problem per se, it is just less than optimal performance given the capability of the bino's optics.

Perhaps if you did more A/B comparisons with premium eyepieces you might see the difference? I don't know the reputation of the Denk 21 at f/5 -- perhaps they perform as well as other premiums. I do know there is a difference in my bino using TeleVue and Pentax oculars vs. those supplied with the binos. Otherwise those would be magic eyepieces and we would all want them in our f/5 dobs too!

Also, as far as color correction I have done A/B tests with my APO triplet setup side-by-side. On bright objects it is readily apparent that the APM has significant false color. However, it certainly is a step above your average f/6 Chinese achromat. I believe the claim of ED doublet performance, albeit at a less than optimal f/5 for a doublet. Most ED doublets that claim APO levels of correction are f/7 or longer, no?

That said, I still find the APM is a great value and performs as well or better than any 100mm binocular I have ever used. I am certainly a proponent of these but I also want to be realistic in my opinions of its performance.

---
Michael Mc

Edited by GamesForOne (08/18/10 01:53 AM)


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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/17/05

Loc: Connecticut
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3990894 - 08/18/10 02:56 PM

"There is a screw about half-way down on the bottom of each tube that has pushed through the black lining and appears as a white spot."

Seems that APM/Markus have used flocking inside the tubes. I'm not aware of anyone else doing that. Sounds like a good idea to me.


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GlenM
Vendor - Lyra Optic


Reged: 05/20/07

Loc: Lancashire England
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: pcad]
      #3991129 - 08/18/10 04:51 PM

I also found the standard eyepieces that were supplied with my Garrett 100/45° very good indeed.

Now,I was lucky.


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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlenM]
      #3991537 - 08/18/10 07:32 PM

Quote:

I do know there is a difference in my bino using TeleVue and Pentax oculars vs. those supplied with the binos. Otherwise those would be magic eyepieces and we would all want them in our f/5 dobs too!




Michael,
Field curvature generally scales with focal length. If an eyepiece is optimized for the stronger field curvature of such a short-focus instrument as a bino, it will not necessarily enjoy the same degree of correction in a longer focal length scope, even if the f/ratio is the same. This seems to be even more true for simpler eyepiece designs (generally having fewer elements.)


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3991590 - 08/18/10 08:00 PM

Quote:


If an eyepiece is optimized for the stronger field curvature of such a short-focus instrument as a bino, it will not necessarily enjoy the same degree of correction in a longer focal length scope, even if the f/ratio is the same. This seems to be even more true for simpler eyepiece designs (generally having fewer elements.)




I am pretty confident in my assessment, unless as I stated, a different eyepiece design is provided with the latest shipments.

I like to use a moderately bright, close double to judge the edge sharpness. It was clear to me when moving such a double toward the edge that the included eyepieces lost some sharpness well before the extreme edge of the field relative to other eyepieces I had available to test.

If the included eyepieces are manufactured only for the binos, then it would make sense to better optimize them for the f/5 field curvature. Maybe Mike H. will get some feedback from APM regarding any recent changes.

---
Michael Mc


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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3991620 - 08/18/10 08:16 PM

What is the true aperture, as shown by the flashlight test, or by measuring the exit pupil with a comparator such as sold by Peak or Edmund, while using an eyepiece of confidently known focal length?

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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3991698 - 08/18/10 08:52 PM

Gordon,
If these babies are configured like Michael McCullough's, they should work at least close to the nominal 100mm; no less than 95mm, at any rate. (Hopefully I've gotten nothing mixed up here.)


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3991763 - 08/18/10 09:29 PM

Three different reports have shown at least 99mm aperture using the flashlight test -- one measured at NEAF and reported by EdZ.

---
Michael Mc


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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3993683 - 08/19/10 07:23 PM

Have you tried looking at Jupiter and what did you think of the view. Were you able to see any bands, etc.

Thanks

BB


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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #3994450 - 08/20/10 04:54 AM

Quote:

Have you tried looking at Jupiter and what did you think of the view. Were you able to see any bands, etc.

Thanks

BB




Hi Bill,

At 71x (with a pair of Nikon NAV SW 7), even though CA is apparent, I can see at least 5 bands on Jupiter including GRS. If inward focus distance is available, I think you will be able to see cleaner view with filter by suppressing CA. Saturn was very nice at 71x a few month ago. I felt I could go higher magnification for Saturn.

Having said that, this instrument isn't for planetary observation but it excels at DSO, specially I like open cluster around 50x.

Tammy


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Mike Harvey
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/01/04

Loc: Orlando, FL.
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #3994457 - 08/20/10 05:03 AM

Finally got a chance to spend some time on Jupiter early this morning.

There IS some flare around the disc (as I would expect).
I'd rate the view as similar to what I would expect from my old Vixen 80mm, f/11 achromat. The NEB is visible, even at 23X.

With the 46X eyepieces the NEB is starkly contrasted and shows irregularities in shape and tone. There are hints of other zones and definite polar shading.

This is not, of course, what the binocular was designed for...but it does a reasonable job.

Mike H.


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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3995324 - 08/20/10 01:56 PM

I had short observation this morning around 5:20-5:30am PDT before starting work. Orion was up in south east, 30 degrees. Trapezium A-D were easy to spot. With a bit better seeing, I am sure I can spot E but not sure F with 71x. Nice contrasty view.

Next Jupiter, I saw 4 bands and two moon shadows on Jupiter. Io's shadow was in and out, Ganymede shadow was easy to see. Apochromatic objective would be nice for cleaner view. I think asking too much for 100mm f/5 doublet. I didn't do side by side but I think 80mm APO would have given better view at the same magnification.

Pointing to Double Cluster, APM 100ED really shines, never tired of the view. M31, M110, M32 were also nice in binoculars. All that in 10 minutes

Tammy


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Rich V.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3995457 - 08/20/10 03:06 PM

Quote:

Apochromatic objective would be nice for cleaner view. I think asking too much for 100mm f/5 doublet. I didn't do side by side but I think 80mm APO would have given better view at the same magnification.




I've made direct comparisons between my LOMO 80/480 apo refractor and my 100mm Miyauchis side-by-side many times. For targets like Luna/ Jupiter/ the Trap. and doubles the 80mm scope clearly shows finer detail and tighter, pinpoint stars. The "blue blur" of the binocular's achro objectives (even at f7.5) as well as the likely lesser objective figure and cumulative aberrations of all the reflective surfaces involved definitely take away from the amount of detail resolved. On DSOs and MW scanning though, the 100mm binoculars are the clear winner.

There's always some sort of compromise to be made; no one instrument is great for everything!

Rich V


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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/09/05

Loc: Northeastern Cal
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #3995500 - 08/20/10 03:30 PM

Agreed....

Why wring your hands over using binoculars for viewing best done with a high quality refractor?

I find my TMB 130 is the perfect companion to my BT100s....each does its job superbly and complement each other observing.



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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3996312 - 08/20/10 11:37 PM

Tammy,

What is 71x in ep power and what do you think of the ep's that you are using.

Thanks

BB

BB


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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #3996483 - 08/21/10 01:09 AM

Quote:

Tammy,

What is 71x in ep power and what do you think of the ep's that you are using.






Hi Bill,

The eyepieces that I used with APM 100ED binoculars are Nikon NAV SW 7mm. I think optical performance is as good as Pentax XW 7. It comes in smaller, lighter package, ie: bino friendly.

I think it is excellent eyepiece.

Tammy


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hallelujah
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/14/06

Loc: North Star over Colorado
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #3996498 - 08/21/10 01:26 AM

Quote:


What is 71x in ep power
BB




Bill,

Here are some photos

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3891353/Main/3890183

Edited by hallelujah (08/21/10 01:28 AM)


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3996858 - 08/21/10 09:54 AM

Quote:

Agreed....

Why wring your hands over using binoculars for viewing best done with a high quality refractor?





It comes down to convenience most likely. My last time out to our dark club site, I had a birthday party to attend prior. I just didn't have the time or energy to load a mount for my APO refractor plus eyepiece/diagonals/binoviewer case, battery, and other incidentals.

It is loads more convenient to toss in my tripod bag, a small stool, and the APMs in a single case and hit the road. Plus the binos setup in less than 5 minutes and breakdown even faster at the end of the night when you are tired. It is great for camping and short trips with the family when you don't have the luxury of space.

I'd love to have true APO performance out of the APMs in the same form factor as they exist now if the additional price wasn't too large. It would probably be one of the most convenient observing instruments around with plenty of performance to satisfy a well-rounded observer.

Honestly I don't know how APM can produce the ED100 at the price offered compared to the other options currently on the market. However, the product is a winner in my book however it is accomplished.

---
Michael Mc


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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/09/05

Loc: Northeastern Cal
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3996994 - 08/21/10 11:29 AM

Quote:


I'd love to have true APO performance out of the APMs in the same form factor as they exist now if the additional price wasn't too large. It would probably be one of the most convenient observing instruments around with plenty of performance to satisfy a well-rounded observer.

---
Michael Mc




Convenience aside, the point that Rich and I was making is that it is not possible to get true APO performance out of a pair of porro prism binoculars, no matter how expensive.

As far as "well rounded observer", IMO it takes more than a pair of binoculars, no matter how good, to meet that criteria.


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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3997348 - 08/21/10 02:39 PM

While such high performing binoculars may not, or perhaps have not, been for sale, that does not mean that there is something inherently performance limiting in Porro prisms . If enough money were spent, their reflecting surfaces could be made super-flat, if this were necessary.

One criterion for a well-rounded observer is overeating.


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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
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Reged: 02/09/05

Loc: Northeastern Cal
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3997439 - 08/21/10 03:41 PM

One criterion for a well-rounded observer is overeating.



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drexelpbp
sage
*****

Reged: 01/21/08

Loc: Phoenixville,PA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3997489 - 08/21/10 04:03 PM

Hi does anybody know how these compare to the Garrett Optical

http://www.garrettoptical.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=GT100-45&Show=TechSpecs

Thanks

Gary


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3997605 - 08/21/10 04:57 PM

Quote:


Convenience aside, the point that Rich and I was making is that it is not possible to get true APO performance out of a pair of porro prism binoculars, no matter how expensive.





The APM's do not use a Porro prism.

---
Michael Mc


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: drexelpbp]
      #3997646 - 08/21/10 05:29 PM

Quote:

Hi does anybody know how these compare to the Garrett Optical





Both models have been thoroughly discussed in past threads. Perhaps try some searches on both -- you should find plenty of threads to investigate.

I have not performed a direct comparison with the Garrett because I do not have one of each. I chose the APM because it offers ED objectives, plus the effective aperture appears closer to 100mm than the Garrett's from reports I've seen. A few posters herein have also had QC issues with the Garrett's -- the APM's have had fewer such reports (one only such report with the APM ED100 in my knowledge to which the dealer responded directly).

I have performed a direct comparison with the Oberwerk BT-100-45 and chose the APM. It has since been pointed out that such comparisons are meaningless because I only have a sample of one of each. So my opinion is what it is...

---
Michael Mc


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3997664 - 08/21/10 05:40 PM

True enough, Michael, but whether the binocular uses a Schmidt roof/rhomboid prism assy. like your APM or a semi-penta/Porro II assy. like Bill's BT100/45, you still have six prism reflections degrading the image rather than just the one in a refractor/star diagonal combination. The prism surface error is cumulative so a little error in each surface adds up to a noticeable loss of resolution. That was the point.

I think the reason why telescope star diagonals with erecting prisms aren't recommended for astro use is because the extra prism reflections limit their resolution as well. This is particularly noticeable at higher magnifications.

I'm not saying someone can't theoretically make a "perfect" binocular prism system some day but I don't think we've seen one yet, at least in commercially available optics.

I would LOVE to have a giant angled apo binocular that puts up a perfect Airey disk/ first diffraction ring at 200x like a top notch refractor but if one were available I probably wouldn't be able to afford it anyway!

Rich V


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #3997771 - 08/21/10 06:47 PM

One reason scopes capable of hi mag (which is most of them) don't do well with erecting prism diagonals is the destructive phase interference seen with roof prisms when the roof edge is in the light path. The roof edge can also can cause spikes or glare. Lastly the prism needs to be made with high quality surfaces, both in regards to flatness and with the angles between the faces.

Porro prisms still need to be hi quality to work well. A large roof prism where the roof edge isn't in the light path would work also. The Miyauchi's use this scheme.

A 90 deg binocular can be made with only 2 reflections. One way is with an oversized Amici roof prism where the roof edge isn't in the light path. The other is to use 2 high quality mirrors placed in such a way as to duplicate the effect of the oversized Amici prism. The Matsumoto EMS system uses this scheme.

With the EMS system almost any hi quality telescope pair can be turned into a binocular with optics that very few standard binoculars could match. The Takahashi Astronomer and the Kowa Highlander Prominar are the only binoculars that come to mind that are well figured enough to compete with apo telescope optics.

Yup, expensive for sure.


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: pcad]
      #3997802 - 08/21/10 07:07 PM

Quote:


With the EMS system almost any hi quality telescope pair can be turned into a binocular with optics that very few standard binoculars could match. The Takahashi Astronomer and the Kowa Highlander Prominar are the only binoculars that come to mind that are well figured enough to compete with apo telescope optics.

Yup, expensive for sure.




When I said "porro prism" in my last post, I was thinking of differentiating it from binoscopes such as use the EMS system. Also, these are not in my mind true binoculars as the image is mirror reversed as in a refractor with a diagonal.

One of the pleasures of using true binoculars is that the image is erect and left to right correct which makes them intuitively easy to "point and shoot."



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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: pcad]
      #3997830 - 08/21/10 07:31 PM

Quote:

The Takahashi Astronomer and the Kowa Highlander Prominar are the only binoculars that come to mind that are well figured enough to compete with apo telescope optics.

Yup, expensive for sure.




As good as these binoculars may be, they are operating at relatively low magnifications; 22x for the Tak and 32x or 50x with the Kowa. It's hard to tell how they compare to an apo refractor at such low power.

How would either of these compare with the apo telescope splitting doubles if they were fitted with eyepieces providing 40-50x per inch? I'm thinking it's likely their resolution would be inferior to the telescope.

A possibly more interesting comparison of resolution would be a refractor w/EMS back vs. a refractor w/star diagonal at high mags. Two mirrors vs. one. This one might be closer!

Rich V


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #3997868 - 08/21/10 07:49 PM

Quote:

use the EMS system. Also, these are not in my mind true binoculars as the image is mirror reversed as in a refractor with a diagonal.




The two-mirror EMS system, just like an Amici prism, offers a correct, upright image. Recall that any system employing an even number of reflections delivers a non mirror-reversed view.


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #3997872 - 08/21/10 07:51 PM

Good point Rich. I know the Takahashi objectives are used in their 60mm scope. Still 60mm is pretty meager for a telescope.

Mr Bill, The EMS system does have an upright, correct image. As you observe through the eyepieces, pan the instrument in any direction and the stars move in the opposite direction just like any normal binocular including your 45 degree BT100 and your previous Fujinon.

Thanks Glenn.

Edited by pcad (08/21/10 07:53 PM)


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: pcad]
      #3998339 - 08/22/10 12:37 AM

Quote:


A 90 deg binocular can be made with only 2 reflections. ... The other is to use 2 high quality mirrors placed in such a way as to duplicate the effect of the oversized Amici prism. The Matsumoto EMS system uses this scheme.





Yes, I have had discussions with an importer (I'll give you one guess) who said that such a bino was in development in China. I had expected to see 90 deg binos using mirrors by now. That same importer tells stories of multi-million dollar optical machinery that currently does little more than pump out cellphone camera lens and could do so much more.

As far as cost, the APM is far more binocular than I would have expected to buy for $1000 say 5 years ago. The trend toward affordable pricing with increasing performance should continue.

I am aware that you can spend $7k and get an dual APO setup, but that is well beyond my budget. Such one-off solutions don't have the economy of scale and will never be inexpensive. They also sacrifice the portability aspect.

---
Michael Mc


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3998461 - 08/22/10 02:42 AM

Oops....my bad. I thought I remember reading that the images were reversed.

So two of my TMB 130 with an EMS system would be interesting....well, I got 1/2 of the objectives.



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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #3999527 - 08/22/10 03:55 PM

Has anything further been found re the earlier hypothesis that the APM ( or was it the other 100mm?) use Amici roof prisms in the second mode( ff. the Hopkins prisms/mirrors chapter in Mil. Handbook 141, available on this site),in which the light cone is not divided by the roof line, or at least with the roof well offset from the center of the light cone, as in the WW II Busch design 45 deg. inclined view f/3.5 10 x 80 Flak binocular, or the Schneider Goettingen 25 x 105 with telephoto design objectives ,by Albert Tronnier, or the similar TAL ( Novosibirsk) 15 x 110?


Has any mention been made of the presence or absence of spikes and/or image deterioration from the interference /polarization effects when wavefronts from the two portions of the roof collide as they pass from one side of the roof to the other?


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #3999631 - 08/22/10 04:48 PM

"The prism surface error is cumulative so a little error in each surface adds up to a considerable loss of resolution ."

Deja vu. Fortunately , things are not that bad. More than ten years ago, I became interested in this topic in the context of use of higher magnifications with the second mode pseudo Amici two mirror roof "air prism" or EMS. And, why do the prewar Zeiss Porro II 4-reflection designs such as the 60, 80, or 110 mm perform as well as they do at 40x or 50x? What are the flatness requirements for such a mirror or prism system?

I was puzzled until I found a book by Bruce H. Walker. The current edition is OPTICAL ENGINEERING FUNDAMENTALS, 2ND edition, SPIE Press, Jan 2009, TT82, about $45. A statistical approach shows that the surface errors do not add linearly. Another favorable exposition is that the beamprint does not cover the entire reflecting surface, and converges with the light cone as it passes through the system. I had not found such an analysis in Mil Handbook 141, nor in Warren Smith's books. Did I overlook something?

Glenn LeDrew recently made a similar analysis in this forum.

Mr. Walker worked at Kollmorgen on systems with many elements , including submarine periscopes and inspection systems for inaccesible industrial/nuclear equipment. The book uses OSLO in its aberration analyses. This book is very accessible to the beginner or near-beginner. Walker wrote a monthly column in Applied Optics for many years. His expositions are noted for their clarity. He considers simple prismatic telescopes in a design example (half of a binocular), and I recall that there is a binocular in there also, among various other interesting and timely topics.


Somewhere in CN, it was stated that Stellarvue uses LOMO (St. Petersburg) objectives. Does your LOMO have a yellow tint, Rich? The Stellarvue objectives I have seen do not show the yellow tinted glass found in the KOMZ(Kazan), TAL(Novosibirsk), or examples I have seen and sold in the past of LOMO, binoculars. Can someone shed light on the Russian-Soviet glass industry and/or the cited LOMO-Stellarvue example?

I should like to see the TAL 90 degree field 15 x 110mm. without the yellow tint. Might Stellarvue import such? Perhaps APM?


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #3999678 - 08/22/10 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Mike what are you using to mount these 16lbs fellows?




I'm using a Manfrotto 504 HD head and, for my trip to Yellowstone, I mounted it on a 546 tripod. The entire setup was small and light enough to carry-on the plane in a padded cordura bag. The head is rated for 19 lbs. and the combo was very user-friendly and rock steady.

For home use I'm putting the head on a heavier Manfrotto 475 tripod that features a geared center post and the height of the binocular can be easily adjusted without having to make changes in the leg lengths....just crank the handle!

Mike




Wow, congratulations, this is a dream team (bino, mount and tripod). I am throwing a look since a long time on these ED binos and I saw some in Markus Ludes APM shop in Rehlingen-Germany: it was mounted on the Manfrotto 475 tripod with a 400 series geared head: really hard to resist. At the moment I was nearly decided to open my wallet, APM was starting to sell the 6" binos. Now I am really torn
Looking forward to your review on CN: Many thanks.
BTW, another interesting site for bino-amateurs:
www.binoptic.de
Enjoy.


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3999721 - 08/22/10 05:29 PM

Gordon, these 45° models use an offset Schmidt roof prism in second mode just like the Miyauchi design they copied. The light cone is not divided by the roof line.

I can see how the "beamprint" would use less of each successive prism surface as it approaches the eyepiece so each surface would effect the overall error to a lesser degree. Six reflections could certainly introduce more aberrations to the overall image than just one, though, don't you think?

The LOMO air spaced triplet telescope objectives used by SV, TMB, APM, WO, A&M and others over the years have no yellow tint whatsoever; they consistently test to be among the most accurately figured objectives available. They use glass sourced from LZOS' Lytkarino Optical Glass Factory in Moscow with the fluoride element being LZOS' OK4 glass. LZOS also produces objectives from 105mm to 500mm in their own facility using their glass formulations. I have no idea what the glass source was for the other Russian optics you cite, though.

Rich V


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #3999884 - 08/22/10 06:56 PM

Quote:

Oops....my bad. I thought I remember reading that the images were reversed.




Bill, you're probably thinking of Milt's 100mm Borg binoscope with the Astromeccanica backs. They DO have a L-R reversed image.

Rich V


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beachchairbill
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Rich V.]
      #4000590 - 08/23/10 01:57 AM

Hi everyone,

Going back to the Jupiter viewing, I was able to look at it tonight with the GBT 100/45. Used the Meade Zoom 8x24 down at 8x and was only able to see only one band vs 5 though the APO seeing 5 bands with Nikon NAV SW 7. To me this is quite a difference. Is it the quality of the Nikons that is making the difference? Also, I noted that when useing such a low power in the GBT a very slight move with the focuser right or left would take Jupiter out of focuse.

Here is the question: Would the Nikons come to focus in the GBT and if so would I be able to see 5 bans vs only one? Are the Nikons that much better in optic quality than the Meads? Or is the APM that much better quality than the GBT.

Glen M. have you ever given Jupiter a look see and if so what do you think.

Beachchairbill


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4002192 - 08/23/10 08:35 PM

Quote:

Going back to the Jupiter viewing, I was able to look at it tonight with the GBT 100/45. Used the Meade Zoom 8x24 down at 8x and was only able to see only one band vs 5 though the APO seeing 5 bands with Nikon NAV SW 7. To me this is quite a difference. Is it the quality of the Nikons that is making the difference? Also, I noted that when useing such a low power in the GBT a very slight move with the focuser right or left would take Jupiter out of focuse.

Here is the question: Would the Nikons come to focus in the GBT and if so would I be able to see 5 bans vs only one? Are the Nikons that much better in optic quality than the Meads? Or is the APM that much better quality than the GBT.




I think you meant 8mm (short focal end of the zoom eyepiece) not 8x magnification? It would be tough to see even single band of Jupiter at 8x

Anyway, I think we have some mixups in fact. Let me summarize what I observed and add some more.

1. I saw 5 bands on Jupiter around 1am PDT on Aug 20th (71x Nikon NAV SW 7, APM 100ED)
2. I saw 4 bands on Jupiter 5:20-5:30am PDT on Aug 20th (71x Nikon NAV SW 7, APM 100ED)
3. I saw 9-10 bands on Jupiter 5:30am PDT on Aug 21st (116x Nikon NAV SW 14, BARCON, MarkV binoviewer, star prism diagonal, TMB 92SS)
4. I saw 6 bands on Jupiter 5:30am PDT on Aug. 23rd (67x, Panoptic 24, BARCON, MarkV binoviewer, Baader Amici diagonal, TMB 92SS).

#4 seeing was the worst, #3 seeing was the best among 4 observations.

Here is my suggestion.

You try simple design short focal length eyepiece first to see if you can get higher quality view out of GBT before jumping on something expensive, not sure you can reach focus to infinity. I guess something like TV Plossl 8mm, Baader Genuine Ortho 9mm. Yes you need to put up with short eye relief for the experiment. You may not like them in the long run due to short eye relief though. If you intend to keep short focal length eyepieces for GBT, I would suggest Radian 10 or Pentax XF 12. I think Radian will come to focus but I am not sure about XF 12 yet. I don't use Radian on APM because undercuts drive me nuts

If you find you can get better view with simpler/high quality eyepiece on GBT, I could arrange loaning a pair of NAV SW 7s for you to try.

All that said, APM/GBT binoculars aren't designed for planetary observation so I am not sure all this buys much beyond satisfying curiosity.

You might be better enjoying wide view of DSO that 100mm binoculars excels at than planets

Tammy


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #4002368 - 08/23/10 10:12 PM

Sadly, the Baader Genuine Ortho range will not come to focus in my Garrett 100/45°

What I did like in the Garrett's are the 7mm UWAN for high power views.


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlenM]
      #4002611 - 08/24/10 12:37 AM

Tammy,

Your right it should have been 8mm and yes I can't see rings with my Minox 8x44's or my Canon 15x50's either.

I'm just supprised that you can get such sharp detail with 7mm and are able to bring them to focus in the APM. How low mm can you go and still get sharp detail?

Not to get off the subject but I have a juestion for Glen M.

After I received my GBT back from Garrett, I noted that when I looked through my right tube, I'm was spot on target. However when I look through my left tube the target can only be seen on the far right corner. Can you test yours for me and see if you get the same results? When I look throught both, I see right down the middle - interesting.

Glen, please tell me more about the 7mm UWAN"s and are they worth the money.

Their is now way of getting away from looking at Jupiter every night as it will be right out my back kitchen window for the next several months and then Orion shows up later in the morning.

Sorry to get off subject. Thanks

Beachchairbill


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4002617 - 08/24/10 12:40 AM

What is the distance to your test target?

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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4003563 - 08/24/10 04:33 PM

Hi Beachchair,

Good question from Gordon.

I don't have any collimation issues with my Garretts.

The 7mm UWAN seems to work very well in my Garretts to give me 75x,well 69x actually with the 7mm being 7.8mm
I should say that this is in cyclops mode. I am chasing another 7mm but it must be the original WO UWAN and not the recent clones. If you could borrow one beachchair I think you will be pleased with the view.

How good are the UWAN's? I sold my Naglers and bought a set of UWAN's and never regretted it.


Stay Healthy.


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlenM]
      #4003781 - 08/24/10 06:25 PM

Quote:

I am chasing another 7mm but it must be the original WO UWAN and not the recent clones.




The problem I have heard with the UWAN's in binoviewing mode is that they require you to tilt your head to get the eye in the right position to see the entire field. With both eyes it isn't possible to get the right tilt for each.

I noticed the same with my previously owned 28mm UWAN which really required an exaggerated head tilt to get my eye in position.

---
Michael Mc


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beachchairbill
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #4004483 - 08/25/10 12:17 AM

Hi,

Approximately 300 yards.

BB


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4004891 - 08/25/10 08:31 AM

Quote:

I'm just supprised that you can get such sharp detail with 7mm and are able to bring them to focus in the APM. How low mm can you go and still get sharp detail?





Hi Bill,

Yes, I am also surprised that I could go to 71x and get decent Jupiter view. When I first got the binoculars, I've tried 4mm Ortho, yielding 125x as part of initial tests. I observed the Moon and terrestrial targets. I saw a lot of CA but that was expected. I didn't have any issue merging image and image was not broken down.

A few days ago, I tried Jupiter at 125x It was difficult to merge, showing misalignment. I didn't see any more detail than 71x but CA became more bothersome.

This morning, I tried Jupiter again. I found Jupiter was the best at 66.7x, using Takahashi LE 7.5 with APM 100ED, showing 6 bands good detail showed up when seeing was settled, moons were a point of light.

Tammy


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Milo
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GlenM]
      #4005003 - 08/25/10 09:42 AM Attachment (76 downloads)

Great bino!
I have a pair and I used Pan 19 and UWAN 16 ep on parallelogram muont


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Milo]
      #4005161 - 08/25/10 11:11 AM

The 19 Pan would be my choice of ep if I owned those binoculars. They allow you to utilize the full prism aperture (22mm) without vignetting....the field stop on the ep is 21.3mm.



Edited by Mr. Bill (08/25/10 01:10 PM)


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #4006015 - 08/25/10 06:30 PM

Thank you Michael,I have not heard of this problem before. I think I will try and borrow one,but with no astro mates it's not going to be easy
I may have to take the plunge on a new one.

I like the 'face cup' on the 28mm

I will keep you informed if I actually buy another 7mm.

Clear Skies.


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beachchairbill
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #4006089 - 08/25/10 07:03 PM

Tammy,

I hope you realize that I am pushing this thread for as much detail as possible because this is a very positive report for the APM which are few and far between.

I was also shocked when you indicated that you were able to see so many more bands on Jupiter than I can see with the GBT.

I wonder now if I should spring for better quality ep's and would this improve the quality views that I am looking for with my GBT.

Glen, Brian, and anyone else can chime in on this one.

Since I received my GBT back from the vendor, I wonder if they have been collimanated properly. Would love comments on the testing process for collimitating my binoculars.

If you get the chance, could you check out the Seven Sisters and report on your views and the quality of your views. Also which ep's work best.

Glen M., can you do the same with your GBT. I hope to be back in PA next week and I will do the same. This should give use a good comp between the two makes.

Beachchair


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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4006112 - 08/25/10 07:15 PM

Beachchair,
I highly doubt you'd see a detectable improvement on axis with other eyepieces. By far the greatest contributor to image problems comes from all that glass ahead of the eyepieces. Just a tiny amount of wedge or tilt in one element can make all the difference at higher powers.

You should critically examine star images slightly out of focus--both inside and outside--to assess symmetry. If even the slightest out-of-roundness is apparent (less any clipping, if present, due to prism edges, etc., etc.), you will not get the kind of planetary performance Tammy is enjoying.


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GamesForOne
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4006213 - 08/25/10 08:17 PM

Quote:

Tammy,

I hope you realize that I am pushing this thread for as much detail as possible because this is a very positive report for the APM which are few and far between.





Tammy and I have both spoken highly of the bino for months, plus this thread started with a positive impression from Mike.

As far as planetary observing, it is not the best optic to use although my APM also puts up a respectable image at 50x (the highest power I have in 2 EPs). I also tried 125x once in cyclops mode and the image of Saturn was still surprisingly sharp but surrounded by CA. It does not, however, compare to the performance of my SV105 APO at high magnification.

If your GBT is performing well in the 25x-40x range, I am not sure why you should be concerned. The APM advertises an ED objective -- your GBT does not -- so it should be expected to perform a bit better with increasing magnification.

---
Michael Mc


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beachchairbill
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Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #4006429 - 08/25/10 10:16 PM

Glen,

I know that when I returned the GBT for repaires they did remove the Objective Lens on both tubes, however, i'm not so sure that the recollimation was done properly. I will give your suggestions a try.

GamesForOne,

Now I know that your glass is better in the APM vs the GBT, I think our readers would like to know this and I thank the both of you for posting your first light reports on CN. Every time some one post to this thread I amy learning more about the quality of both binoculars and I hope it continues. Since no one has done a side by side test of these binoculars why not try it this way. I'm already disappointed that the APM's were not on the market when I purchased the GBT. As of right now, you and Mike are getting much better views of Jupiter than I am and I like looking at Jupiter through binoculars like the GBT. Right now, it's out my back window every night.

BB



BB


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4006638 - 08/26/10 12:18 AM

Quote:


Right now, it's out my back window every night.





Just to clarify: you are not looking through that window with the binos are you? That surely will compromise the quality of the image.

I used to do that with a PST when looking at the Sun to try to avoid the heat. However it was always apparent that the image quality suffered when looking through a window.

---
Michael Mc


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Jawaid I. Abbasi
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4006640 - 08/26/10 12:19 AM

Talking about the bands; I used four days ago 60x on Jupiter with a regular eyepiece. With 60x; I only see one bend but I would say that I do not have a premium eyepiece.

I just ordered a pair of Mark III zoom and would like to try once received.

I also used my lovely 17mm Hyperion that gave me about 35x and still visible one band but the views were sharp as it could be. So, the Hyperion zoom should be sharp just like 17mm Hyperion and I am sure that I will see then two or three bands.


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Mike Harvey
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #4006760 - 08/26/10 02:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Tammy,

I hope you realize that I am pushing this thread for as much detail as possible because this is a very positive report for the APM which are few and far between.





Tammy and I have both spoken highly of the bino for months, plus this thread started with a positive impression from Mike.




I had hoped to have an in-depth report posted before now.
Unfortunately, I've just been slammed with work since I returned from Yellowstone (the price of taking two weeks off!).

Soon - I hope.

Mike


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beachchairbill
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Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mike Harvey]
      #4008331 - 08/26/10 09:29 PM

Mike,

Yes I am - have no other choice when you live in Brooklyn NY if you get my drift.

BB


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hallelujah
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4008452 - 08/26/10 10:48 PM

Is he talking about looking through a window opening or through window glass?

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: hallelujah]
      #4008528 - 08/26/10 11:28 PM

Window double glass. Not your best viewing, however, I just looked at Jupiter with it's four moons out tonight and the full moon just above it. Very nice site. Could only see one band on Jupiter and that is where I maxed out at 8mm and a very short focus point. Better views at 12mm and 18mm. Had a very nice view of Orion Sword at 4:30am. They all pass my kitchen window.

Anyone know where I could send my GBT for a collimation checkup in my area.

Thanks

BB


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hallelujah
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4008608 - 08/27/10 12:15 AM

Quote:

Window double glass. Not your best viewing
BB





I'm amazed that you can see as well as you do.

Perhaps its time to invest in a window that can be opened.

Stan


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Rich V.
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4008646 - 08/27/10 12:42 AM

Quote:

Anyone know where I could send my GBT for a collimation checkup in my area.




Bill, distortions looking through a window could easily give you the impression collimation is off when it's not. Don't worry about collimation until you can get outdoors and really see what your binoculars can do.

I'm impressed you get views as good as you describe looking through a double pane window. Some of my windows don't even allow an undistorted view through them at 10x!

Relax and enjoy your GBTs as best you can until you can examine them more carefully outdoors. Chances are they won't need any adjustment.

If adjustment is necessary and you are mechanically inclined, you may be able to adjust the collimation yourself. You will have to be comfortable removing the right eyepiece turret and adjusting three push-pull screw pairs located on top of the main prism housing, re-assembling and checking for merging; repeating as necessary. It's time and patience consuming but not really all that difficult to do.

I didn't like the prospects of shipping my very similar Miyauchis across the country and back again for collimation so I did it myself. Your GBTs are pretty faithful copys of the Miyauchis; I can give you some tips if/when you may want to give it a try.

Rich V


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Mr. Bill
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4009366 - 08/27/10 12:55 PM

Quote:

Glen,

I know that when I returned the GBT for repaires they did remove the Objective Lens on both tubes, however, i'm not so sure that the recollimation was done properly. I will give your suggestions a try.


BB




My "quick and dirty" check for binocular collimation....defocus one barrel so that a bright star appears as a disk, leave other barrel at best focus. The star should fall somewhere (hopefully centered but not critical) on the disk.



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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #4010750 - 08/28/10 02:28 AM

Well my wife and I did it tonight, we shut off all the lights lowered the upper kitchen window at 12AM when all the bugs were sleeping and had a look see at Jupiter and the moon. What a difference with the window down, much sharper view of the moon through the GBT. Some green was noted around the outer edge of the moon but nothing that was bothersome. The moon was sharp and bright and the detail was crisp. Jupiter was nice and sharp with one band standing out far better than with the window up. Even the four moons took on a sharper image. Looks like this is the way to go for future viwes from my kitchen window.

Thanks for the great suggestion.

I would still like to check my collimation, so any hints would be appreciated.

Now I wonder if 7mm Nikes or Uwans would help me see 3 or 4 bands on Jupiter or am I pushing these Binoculars beyond their capability. I had my Meade Zooms set at 8mm. Would more expensive ep's make that big a difference.

My wife and I decided to head into the wilds of Pennsylvania early next week for a short vacation and I will bring the big guns along this time.

Windows down is the way to go.

Question from my wife are you going to take the window down in the dead of winter - you bet I am with a heater next to me on the kitchen counter.

Thanks

BB


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4013231 - 08/29/10 01:31 PM

Correction:
In #3999631, earlier in this thread, I said that Bruce Walker's regular writing was in Applied Optics . That was Frank Cooke.

Bruce Walker's contributions are in Optical Spectra, now called Photonics Spectra.


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #4095407 - 10/05/10 09:10 PM

Good evening all, I just ordered a pair of APM 100mm after reading the many threads on CN. I'm looking forward to testing the APM and letting you all know the out come.

Thanks for all help and fine reporting.

Cheers

Steve

Edited by SBrian (10/06/10 10:53 AM)


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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4095579 - 10/05/10 10:41 PM

Steve,

Congrats, I think you did the right thing.

Can't wait for your report and hope it goes well.

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4101055 - 10/08/10 11:59 AM

Today’s the day my New APMs arrive... Just waiting for the Big Brown truck to roll up! I'm 50 years old and I fill like a kid waiting for Christmas.

Edited by SBrian (10/08/10 12:37 PM)


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beachchairbill
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Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4101360 - 10/08/10 02:06 PM


Oh you didn't know that is your Christmas gift.

Big thing now how do you keep your finger prints off that shine new black covering. At least you can tell who was using it while you were away.

Enjoy them and hope you have a great report to tell us. Looks like the weekend should be great for outdoor viewing in your neck of the woods.

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4101393 - 10/08/10 02:17 PM

No, but I think some nice Nikon or TeleVue eye pieces might be inline for Christmas… and that would be fingerprints and droll my fellow Binoneer!

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4101740 - 10/08/10 04:46 PM

Don't forget you need two of everything OOOCH. Wait till my wife finds out what I spent last weekend on two new TeleVue's.

There goes my Birthday gift and Christmas gift.

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4101867 - 10/08/10 05:53 PM

Which TeleVues did you order?

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4102539 - 10/09/10 12:34 AM

Two 8mm TeleVue Radians

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4102621 - 10/09/10 01:19 AM

Nice Bill! You'll be sleeping on the couch, but nice...

The New APM’s are cloud magnets! Clear all day till I rolled the 100s out and poof, clouds.

Edited by SBrian (10/09/10 01:23 AM)


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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4103495 - 10/09/10 02:27 PM

While your waiting for the clouds to clear and it looks like you received the APM's. Please give us your thoughs on the packageing and if you have not done so already give it the flashlight test through the objectives. Are the tubes nice and clean, any finger prints noted on the inside glass, focuser glass, etc. This would be a good start for your first light report.

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4103611 - 10/09/10 03:28 PM

Hey Bill, yep I received them and started to build a report based on the fit and finish, mechanical, optics, usability and image quality. I most likely will not publish anything till next weekend.

But if you would like an early opinion, then I would say that I am pleased so far.


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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4103773 - 10/09/10 04:26 PM

Pleased is always a good thing and I'm glad you got them. Exciting times.

Looking forward to your extensive first light report. As you can tell from all of the other reports that have been posted on CN, it appears that APM has taken the lead right now in the BT 100/45 quality area and your report will lend further proof that this is the case. There are many CN members that have been holding off on the purchase of this type of binoculars and your report could be the turning point for positive improvements.

BB


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4103922 - 10/09/10 05:26 PM

Awww, nothing like putting the pressure on!

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4104381 - 10/09/10 09:57 PM

Just the number of CN members who have viewed this thread should give you an idea on the interest for these binoculars. Now that's preasure - Just the facts.

BB


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Jawaid I. Abbasi
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4104638 - 10/10/10 01:06 AM

BB,
I just did like you. I open the wibdow and setup my 15x70 binocular and found M15!

It was seen as I am in the backyard well, there was no distorsion seen which I was expected because the house was warmer then outside.


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Jawaid I. Abbasi]
      #4120219 - 10/16/10 05:37 PM

Bill FYI I have filed a review on the APM-100s to CN. I do not know how long it takes to get it published.

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4120307 - 10/16/10 06:25 PM

Hi S,

Would love to read it, ED, Joad, any ideas where it resides?

BB


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Joad
Wordsmith
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Reged: 03/22/05

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: beachchairbill]
      #4120474 - 10/16/10 07:54 PM

There isn't an exact schedule for how long it takes for an article to get put up here on CN. Just stay on the lookout for it.

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beachchairbill
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/06/08

Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Joad]
      #4120877 - 10/16/10 11:24 PM

S,

Why not post it here, at least we won't have to wait.

BB


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EdZ
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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Joad]
      #4122003 - 10/17/10 01:30 PM

Quote:

There isn't an exact schedule for how long it takes for an article to get put up here on CN. Just stay on the lookout for it.




But it is nowhere near as long as it used to take.

edz


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SBrian
super member


Reged: 09/04/10

Loc: New Hampshire USA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: EdZ]
      #4164084 - 11/04/10 08:16 PM

The APM 100 review is now online... Thanks for your help.

Edited by SBrian (11/05/10 07:20 PM)


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Jawaid I. Abbasi
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/19/07

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Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: SBrian]
      #4164536 - 11/04/10 11:44 PM

I will try to explain couple of things since it will be useful for those who want to buy in the future. Here we go:

Firstly, I never had experiance dealing with APM-Germany but I kept sending emails about my concern and interest to buy it. I want to go locally but the NJ store that is my neighbour are not selling the APM-100 binocular anymore. They still have the inventory for misc thing. I spoke the lady and she was so polite and very nice. She even sent an email to MARKUS to make sure that my question or concern answers quickly.

I started emailing with Markus and asked bunch of questions and he replied me promptly with honest answers. So, he made a trust relationship.

I asked him if the binocular can use all kind of eyepieces. He said that he only test Neglers and couple of others but he will tell me if I go for another eyepiece. Well, At that time I know already that most of the eyepieces will come to focus.

My another concern was the pinpoint star not seagill if I spent $1225.00 He told me that he checked every binocular under the star before he shipped. Well mine come about 90% collimated and I beleive it that the 10% mis-aligned during shippment.

He said that there is improvement in this new APMs and yes I saw it. I used to have the ORION BT100 and to take the eyepiece out or put it in was a big hassel plus I had to keep fiddling or turning the eyepiece to get a single image but not in the APM. It was a joy to put the eyepiece in and out and if you have smooth side then you will love the Binocular.

He also asked if I need any specific eyepiece or just the one it comes with it. So, I had a choice to go for different eyepiece for a little extra. But I took whatever it came with it.

I got 2 pairs of eyepieces. One was a wide 70degree 20mm and the other was a 60degree 9mm "PLANETARY HR".

The 20mm was fine but the 9mm was good as Neglers if not better. No ghosting at all !! No reflection !! background was pitch black !!! Stars looked as stars at about 95% of the entire field !

Couple of days ago; I used on JUPITER to see how does it perform in my light pollution area. I can tell you that these eyepiece was showing detail but I can not compare with the refractor. An 80mm telescope will show you the same detail on PLANETS. The real test on DSOs:

I looked several open clusters, Globulers and Orion Nebula. On Orion Nebula; it showed me a whole lot of details that I will expect from a good 5" or maybe 6" scope. I even saw 4 stars plus glimps(I believe) of the fifth one in Trap.

To me, it is well worth it if you get fully collimated and you have a dark sky not like mine NELM4.20

Lastly, I am giving advice to VENDORS especiall APM-Germany that they should include an another set of objective cover that has a masking capability. Why? because it is f5 and even with ED glass; you will see colours around the bright objects. To me, I am using them for deep sky object but it is also capable to use on planets too. So, providing the masking will enable you to see more detail and I am sure that you can even go 100x (I used so far 71x).
This is my own openion and what I got and experiance; I wrote it down here but you may have different experiance


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GamesForOne
sage


Reged: 09/29/09

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: Jawaid I. Abbasi]
      #4165300 - 11/05/10 11:54 AM

Quote:

Well mine come about 90% collimated and I beleive it that the 10% mis-aligned during shippment.





How do you determine 90% collimation? I do not understand what that means.

---
Michael Mc


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Jawaid I. Abbasi
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/19/07

Loc: LEVITTOWN, PA
Re: New APM 100mm ED - first impressions new [Re: GamesForOne]
      #4165400 - 11/05/10 12:34 PM

Michael,
It was just my rough estimate. I had little difficulty merging image specially when using undercut barrel. By opening and tweak a little; I no longer have no problem.

And I guess you said a little trick that when defocus the one end; the other end of focus object should lie in the center and now it is showing me exect way.


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