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asaintAdministrator
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Fork Mounted SCT - RIP
      #420473 - 04/27/05 11:17 AM

Fork Mounted SCT - RIP

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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420489 - 04/27/05 11:24 AM

Quote:


It occurs to me that if an astronomer wants to hunt down their own deep sky objects, they have no choice but to buy a dob.





Yet another reason to buy a dob (preferrably a BIG one).



T

--------------------
There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.


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asaintAdministrator
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #420494 - 04/27/05 11:30 AM

I just knew it in my bones you were going to say something like that :}

Allister


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420504 - 04/27/05 11:37 AM

You just can't deny the power of the dark side.



They ALL come around eventually.



T

--------------------
There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420515 - 04/27/05 11:49 AM

Wow - you scared me there for a minute. I'll always have forkmounted SCT's around here! I agree that it's a shame to not be offered the lighter, less expensive non-goto versions. I don't remember quite when the LX10 disappeared but I'm sure it was the last of them.

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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Bluemeanie
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #420524 - 04/27/05 12:04 PM

For the longest time I've been a fan of SCTs. My current 8" has served me well for over 15 years. My dream scope was a C14 until recently. I picked up the "bible" The Dobsonian Telescope book at NEAF. I'm not sure if I'm going to build or buy at this point, but a 15" or 18" Obsession type Dob is in my not so distant future.

The way it's looking now, I will save for the optics over the course of the year while building the structure. Hopefully it will be a pleasant experience!

I was concerned about a 15" or 18" fitting in my car. I can always get a car to fit my scope...

--------------------
Walt
  • Obsession 15" f/4.5 #1282 w/ Argo Navis, Feathertouch Focuser
  • Meade 2080GEM (8" SCT)
  • Vixen ED80SF - Celestron CG5-GT Mount
  • Coulter CT-100 - Meade DS2000 Mount
  • Coronado Halpha PST
  • Denkmeier Binoviewer w/ dual PXS
  • Canon 300D, Celestron Neximage




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Scott BeithAdministrator
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #420530 - 04/27/05 12:10 PM

Allister,
As the owner of 3 scopes (all of which lack a GOTO function), I have to tell you:

I want a GOTO SCT !!!
I want the lazy man's observing sessions !!!
I want to pick out star #395xr56 and have it end up in my EP !!!

As a man who has never had the joy of owning a GOTO scope, I am the wrong one to ask.

Evaluation: "Old Dog - No Bone..."

Sorry Sir, I couldn't resist.

--------------------
Scott
S.L.A.P. Observer
TMB 130SS/CG-5(AS-GT)(IT'S HERE - THANKS ASTRONOMICS!)
SV80ED Deluxe/SV M1 Deluxe
Coronado SM40/BF10

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke.
"The measure of a man's life is not what he accomplishes for himself, but what he accomplishes for others." Some bald guy.


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John Hoare
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Bluemeanie]
      #420547 - 04/27/05 12:29 PM

When I wanted a light-weight portable SCT I bought a Celestron C5 spotter, which I use at home on a traditional EQ mount that I already have and have been using elsewhere on a camera tripod. I've just ordered a more stable Alt-Az head that's compatible with an existing tripod for portability. If I ever 'go up a size' my desire would be a C8 OTA, but mounted on one of the mounts I already have.

Having already used a NexStar 4 for a few years I can appreciate why Allister misses the lightweight fork mount. The NexStar 4 OTA is lightweight and good quality, but it's GOTO mount is only 'portable' in the boot of a car. You would not want to lug it and a tripod any distance in the dark. And since it is difficult to level the tripod sufficiently on rough ground to be able to set up tracking accurately the lack of a manual AltAz mode with slow motion controls is a distinct disadvantage.

The trend of marrying the OTA to a computerised mount that's by no means a necessity not to mention expensive must be losing Celestron and Meade some sales. I for one only have a C5 because it was available without a mount, I would not have been interested in buying it with one. Traditional EQ mounts with clock drives are just as accurate as GoTo mounts if needed, and AltAz or camera mounts are more convenient if not. And both are less expensive and easier to maintain or repair. I want to spend the biggest portion of my money on quality optics, not unnecessary bells and whistles.

--------------------
John
Watery Glebe
Puddlestown
Co. Kildare


Chaos is the rule of nature
Order is the dream of man
Henry Brooks Adams

IFAS


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Starman1
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420556 - 04/27/05 12:36 PM

What a bunch of Luddite blather!

I have used a fork-mounted non-GoTo SCT, and frankly, it's easier to use a dob. The non-electrical slow motions aren't easy to use (small knobs, not well located, IMHO), and the fork mount, when used on a wedge, is abominable anywhere north of the zenith.

If I had a non- GoTo SCT, it would be on a German equatorial mount, because it is easier to use, better-matched to the use of star charts, and always has the eyepiece away from the mount (so it is easy to use and you don't sit with your legs around the tripod).

And, the people who have a non GoTo SCT rarely look at anything more than the top 100 deep-sky objects because they can't find anything else.

GoTo, or Push-To on dobs, allows the average observer (even one familiar with the stars) to find hundreds, or thousands, of objects quickly, and to spend his time looking at objects, not finding them.
Before GoTo, I sometimes spent 10-15 minutes finding an object, and 5 minutes looking at it. That reversed after GoTo. Altogether, a much better experience.

Today's observers do not live in dark skies. Almost every astronomer has to travel to get a good view of the sky. Therefore, the ability to pick up the whole scope and move it out to the patio doesn't make a lot of sense for any aperture designed to do more than look at the Moon and Planets. That's why the small refractor has taken over this niche. And the refractor cools faster and produces a good image sooner.

So the SCT astronomer is usually travelling somewhere to use the scope. At that point, the weight of the assembled scope is largely irrelevant because the scope will be transported in sub-sections and assembled in situ.

The purely visual SCT's niche has been taken over by scopes like the Meade LX90 which, because of its Alt-Az mount, always has the eyepiece in a convenient place, slews almost as fast as by hand, is more stable than a wedge, and is easier to balance with heavy accessories.

If you want some manual control, you can get a dob with a DSC. That way you can sweep at will without worrying about a clutch, yet still have the computer to guide you to the hard-to-find objects. I don't use my DSC on the brightest couple hundred DSO's because a Telrad works just fine. But when I'm hunting down the obscure little planetary, it saves me a lot of time over star-hopping to it.

If you're going to bemoan the passing of a simple SCT, then mourn the passage of the Newtonian on the spindly GEM's of the '50s and '60s while you're at it.

Sometimes, progress is progress.

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Starman1]
      #420589 - 04/27/05 12:57 PM

Well said Don.

T

--------------------
There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.


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Mike B
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Starman1]
      #420647 - 04/27/05 01:34 PM

Hi Allister-

Don makes some good points, but much of the point of your article remains sharp. Oddly enough, i often gripe about the same ergonomic issues Don mentions... but i continue to enjoy my SCT anyway!... even from from my mag~5 backyard... yes, even near the pole, dagnabbit! It's a heavier 10" LX50 unit on a std. wedge, certainly not portable in any reasonable sense- altho i have *waltzed* with it across the yard a couple of times (seein' as how i don't dance, this really captures the flavor of such a move! ) to gain visual access to a target.

Being upgraded with the Magellan push-to DSC's, i setup about half the time *without* them- using only rough polar alignment & RA tracking. Only if i'm gonna hunt fainter stuff do i invoke Don's 5-15 math & GOTO my DSC's. But in either case, i cannot for the life-of-me imagine *NOT* being able to manually grab the scope & yank it willy-nilly anywhere in the sky i want it to go. Needing a hand-paddle to blisslessly drone my way over to thar is right up there with sitting at a red-light intersection at 2:00am in the middle of nowhere, no cars within a lightyear... & staring mindlessly at the light, waiting for it to turn green. Not this li'l grey duck- i'm outa there!

So, if i were in the market for a lighter & simpler SCT, i believe i might pop for that $800 & get an 8" with RA tracking/manual motions before i'd do the $300 & get a non-driven dob. But that's me. Maybe us old dogs are gonna lose our table-scraps no matter what... so, who let the dob's out?

sorry. 'twas too easy

-mike


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Anonymous
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: Mike B]
      #420663 - 04/27/05 01:49 PM

I once drove out a few miles to do some observing with my 8i. After setting everything up, I realized I forgot my power supply. Nothing to do at that point, but pack everything back up and go home.

Now my hand controller is dead. The scope is pretty useless without a functioning set of electronics.

I'm done with fully computerized scopes that are completely married to some form of electronics to function. The initial "wow" factor of watching your scope drive itself to a location wears off after a while, and its usefullness begins to dim as you start learning the sky.

Although I've never used one, a "push-to" with digital setting circles seems to be an ideal compromise. Hopefully, within a week I'll have a "push-to" scope set up, and I can judge for myself.


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Mike B
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: ]
      #420691 - 04/27/05 02:09 PM

Arrrgh... i can feel your pain! What have we done to ourselves?

Best to you on yer new push-to...

For me & my scope-use, i really need at least an RA drive as well, which the SCT provides. Otherwise, i could be using a dob (with or w/o DSC's).

Cheers!- mike


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Anonymous
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420733 - 04/27/05 02:42 PM

Quote:

Goodness knows the way companies think,



You just answered your own question. They are companies looking to make a profit and sometimes we confuse them with the passionate sky-lovers like you find around here. And in that perspective they did a good job making telescopes more accessible to the masses by taking away all things that used to make this hobby a challenge. But then again, with GOTO I can take pictures now that I only dreamed of 10 years ago

Quote:

Given such a competitive market between Meade and Celestron



If it were any other product where only two companies were dominating the market, they would call it a cartel. It's easy for both to share development and marketing costs and come out with the same product they know will sell. The only solution I can see is for other brands like Tak or Orion to come with a similar price/quality range that does cater to the need of the serious amateur.


And on a more practical note: I know the Celestron GOTO supports a wireless gamepad which uses a joystick instead of the directional buttons and yes, even speech control is optional. I don't know about Meade but if they don't offer it yet, it's probably already on the drawing board.

Jeff


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: ]
      #420752 - 04/27/05 02:57 PM

Quote:

And on a more practical note: I know the Celestron GOTO supports a wireless gamepad which uses a joystick instead of the directional buttons and yes, even speech control is optional. I don't know about Meade but if they don't offer it yet, it's probably already on the drawing board.

Jeff




Hi, Jeff.

The Celestron system doesn't directly support wireless operation; there's software available to gain that feature via a PC (which must be wired to the telescope - thus one is spared only the extra wire to the PC). Meade's LX200GPS series will offer wireless operation without external hardware with their recently-announced replacement handbox.

Both systems (and many more) have been supported for voice operation with a PC for years via Astro-Physics' "Digital Sky Voice" software.

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: John Hoare]
      #420756 - 04/27/05 03:03 PM

Quote:

The trend of marrying the OTA to a computerised mount that's by no means a necessity not to mention expensive must be losing Celestron and Meade some sales.




Hi, John.

I agree that it seems that this should be the case - but I suspect that if the LX-10 had remained a good seller they wouldn't have dropped it. I know that Celestron spent some pretty good bucks promoting their non-goto forkmounts just before dropping them - remember the "For astronomers who know where they stand" back cover ads? They must not have generated many sales.

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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ForgottenMObject
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #420762 - 04/27/05 03:10 PM

A fine article, and I generally agree with it, though I do not think that the old, classic fork-mounted SCT's had quite reached perfection. A few comments of my own:

- I completely agree that the new scopes that are completely dependent upon the electronics can be a serious turn-off to many people in the hobby. Electronics can be faulty, have bugs, or just plain not work. Plus, one has to spend time playing with the electronics, learning how to do the most basic of things with them since the scopes have no manual mode. The electronics are not as reliable as they could be - look at all the horror stories of people having mounts break down and having to send the whole scope back to Celestron or Meade - and they have problems in cold weather, like most electronics. Finally, the need for batteries and gizmos takes away from the elegant and portable simplicity of the SCT design.

- Cost is another deciding factor. One has to pay about $1,000 more for a basic 8" SCT these days than an 8" Dob, in part for the GoTo system. For that much money, one has to really, really want that GoTo system and everything that comes with it or one will just get a Dob.

- Both companies should seriously consider releasing a non-GoTo SCT, as suggested, but learn from past mistakes. I had an 8" Celestron Classic 8 for years, and it really was not a perfected system: here are some improvements based upon experience over the years:

--- Sell the non-GoTo SCT with a good, high quality finderscope. A RA 8x50 would be idea. Better yet, sell them with that finder on one side and a right angle, correct image unity finder on the other side. SCT's have a narrow field of view (without a focal reducer) and thus need either GoTo or good, easy to use finderscopes to be able to find objects. I suffered with the basic, straight-through 6x30 finderscope on my Classic 8 for years, and it was basically useless and very difficult to use. Celestron and Meade never figured this out - they sold their scopes with toy 6x30 finders for years, and even later on, their larger finders were still straight-through, which is useless on an SCT.

--- Ensure that the scope can be balanced easily, at least along the declination axis. This was a problem with the original SCT's - when used with big, heavy eyepieces or big finderscopes, the tube would suddenly become back heavy, which was a nuisance. The scope should either have sliding counterweights or be able to be slid forwards and backwards in the forkmount.

--- Better mechanics in the fine-movement system. The tangent arm system in the declination axis was a pain since you'd run out of travel at the worst times - there is no reason that they cannot have a system in both axis with unlimited travel. Perhaps more annoying was that both axis only had two states - locked (and thus only moveable by fine motion controls) or completely unlocked. Ideally, the new scopes would take a lesson from Dobs and instead of swinging freely when the fine motion controls are disengaged, one could set the tension or friction. So, one could disengage a clamp without the scope wanting to swing wildly in that axis, move it manually to a target, and then re-engage the clamp before using the fine motion controls. Think of it as a Dob-like mount (adjustable friction and properly balanced) with the ability to use fine motion controls and tracking when mounted on a wedge.

Something like that I think would sell since it address the main problems (that I've seen, anyway) in the old SCT designs without having to become dependent on GoTo and electronics. Maybe toss in a reduced price focal reducer (to make things even easier to find) and you'd have a pretty nice system that is easy to use even when compared to a Dob and doesn't cost a fortune or need electronics to work.

--------------------
Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces


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kentak
sage


Reged: 07/09/03
Posts: 449
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: ForgottenMObject]
      #420790 - 04/27/05 03:49 PM

My 8i came with the non-computerized hand control in addition to the computer handset, which I used for a while when I had to get the computer handset replaced (under warranty). I think it's still available for sale if one wanted to go that route. One can forego the computer altogether and just aim the scope using the arrow buttons. While there is a cost penalty compared to manual Dobs of similar size, you still have the portability benefits and more convenient eyepiece location inherent in an SCT while having the option of fully automated operation.

--------------------
Ken
N8i
80ED
C8-NGT
Celestron 25x100


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Cosmosphil
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/04/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: So. California
Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP new [Re: asaint]
      #420831 - 04/27/05 04:42 PM

Allister,
Well, I join your ranks of Ludditism with abandon!
I have never owned a go-to or DSC scope. Heck, I even owned a non-goto, non-DSC C14 for several years. I just pushed that around as well. I, like you, really enjoy hunting down objects and no, I don't look at the same 100 objects over and over.
Seems that part of the initiation to the hobby was indeed to learn the sky and find things on your own. I can still starhop easily in my 4th Mag backyard by using a Telrad and 8 x 50 finder. Heck, I learned how to starhop while living in the middle of town anyway.
I don't see the need to computerize everything that we touch simply because the technology is invented. I still own 1000's of LPs as well as CDs. So what? There is something strange about not being able to move a scope by hand. When I walk over to use everyone elses dob its linked up to a drive of some kind. It takes people several minutes to slew a scope across the sky. I just point and look. I use computers and stare at a screen all day. The last thing I want to do under the stars is what I do at work!!!! I want absolute simplicity. Just me, some glass, wood and a star chart. Yes, soon, Allister all dobs will come with non-removable computer drives as well. Its almost that way now. You may want to buy one soon just in case!

--------------------
Phil Agins
15" Discovery TD
10" Discovery PDHQ
5.7" Ceravolo Mak-Newt HD145
TeleVue-102 / TEC 140 (on order)
Vixen ED80Sf
Coronado PST


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David Knisely
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Re: Fork Mounted SCT - RIP [Re: asaint]
      #420900 - 04/27/05 06:07 PM

One thing which has surfaced is the rise in imaging with SCT's. Fork flexure is one bugaboo which is tough to defeat, especially for larger wedge-mounted SCT's. This may be one reason why the new larger SCT's are going back to the German mount. We just installed our new NexStar 11 at Hyde Observatory, and at high power we can now see just a little of the "boingy boingy" vibration which does not cause much of a problem visually, but which may eventually be a real problem for the planetary imaging we wanted to do with that scope. We think some of it is due to the flexure of the smaller telescoping Pier Tech pedestal we installed to get the scope to a handicapped-acessable position. However, I do know that the fork flexure is very probably part of the problem. With short SCT's on big beefy GEM's, flexure is probably not going to be a problem, although it is replaced with the weight issue. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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