· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article    Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User You are not logged in. [Login] Entrance · Main Index · Search · New user · Who's Online FAQ · Calendar Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing Previous   Index   Next   Threaded   Pages: 1 neveruseforever member Reged: 11/25/09 Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3"       #4212450 - 11/27/10 06:16 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   It is known for a long time that Nikon NEF files are not "really" RAW. The method called "mode 3" is needed to prevent some digital filter. References show D200, D70, D3, D300 suffer from such problem: http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/NIK_CAN.HTM http://astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/nikon_test/test.htm http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/posts/tests/D300_40D_tests/ I have also heard many newer models like D80, D90 suffer from such problem. But recently someone tested D3s and claimed "mode 3" and "mode 1" RAW files have no difference: http://bbs.astron.ac.cn/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=727421&ptid=70632 Since it's in Chinese, I'll explain here. In the thread reply numbered 87 as the link shows, "tiantian99" uploaded 3 photos in NEF viewer. The third one (DSC_0363.NEF) is in "mode 1", ie. long exp noise reduction off. The first two (DSC_0361.NEF & DSC_0364.NEF) is in "mode 3", ie. long exp noise reduction on and switch off power when the DSLR is taking dark frame. Two "mode 3" photo is taken before and after the "mode 1" photo to exclude the effect from heating after continuously long exposure. So it seems "mode 1" and "mode 3" have no difference. I'm quite suspicious since the "mode 3" photo shows similar "artificial" pattern as before (there are many noises grouped in two with one dark pixel between). Could anyone who has D3s do a similar "mode 3" test? Since "mode 3" is widely accepted when people talks about any Nikon DSLRs, it's necessary to make it clear if D3s is really a exception. If there're exceptions, I also want to make a list of models that affected by "mode 3". Any Nikon DSLR owner's test will be helpful. Post Extras:       Ranger Tim professor emeritus Reged: 03/25/08 Loc: Central Virginia, USA Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: neveruseforever]       #4212629 - 11/27/10 09:24 AM Attachment (28 downloads) Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   There are those who have felt strongly enough about the Nikon "Mode 3 Problem" that they have actually devised ways to automate this method by using a device to drop the current to the camera just enough to trigger it to write the file w/o the median filter applied. The current is then ramped up again before the camera actually shuts off, thereby keeping the remote shutter release setting active. Me? I simply work with the camera I have (D50) and continue to learn how to take astrophotos. When I get to the point that the RAW filter begins to make any perceived difference in my results I will probably be ready for a more cutting edge rig anyway, i.e. dedicated CCD. Perhaps the greatest benefit I see in shooting with my Nikon is getting to use my Nikkor lenses for wide field work. I understand Canon has an iron grip on the Astro market, and if I had an Xsi or whatever, I would be shooting with it. Perhaps the biggest complaint I have about using Nikons is that I have to work in Windows on my Mac (Parallels) to control my camera and stack the NEF's. So I have two strikes against me! But I do muddle through. I may finally be on the cusp of getting the entire daisy chain of equipment to function well enough to feel like I'm actually getting decent results. The last of my concerns are "Mode 3." Below is yet another M42, but even though the stars are not yet perfectly round, I think the D50 is going to satisfy me for a while longer, "Mode 3" or not. There are too many other variables involved that create much more impact on the final outcome for me to obsess with the Mode 3 issue. Post Extras:       neveruseforever member Reged: 11/25/09 Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: Ranger Tim]       #4213080 - 11/27/10 12:46 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Hi Ranger Tim, thanks for sharing your experience. Personally I don't care about the "mode 3 problem" since I live in a much light-polluted area. But as a moderator of some astro forum, I often see new people asking for equipment recommendation, and often they excluded Nikon just because of "mode 3 problem". You can't always convince people by "experience is more important than equipment" argument. Besides, it seems now every Nikon owner will use "mode 3" if it's their concern, no matter which models they own. That's why I want to see a clear list of Nikon models which are affected by "mode 3 problem" and which are not. And with the list Nikon users may have a better "guide book". It seems some other people also say D50 doesn't show much difference between "mode 1" and "mode 3" as D70. But I noticed D50's dark frame by "mode 3" has no artificial pattern as the D3s photo provided in my first post's link does. http://www.sfu.ca/~dmunro/DSLRTestPage.html (Tim, could you also test if D50's dark frame by "mode 1" has artificial patterns or not?) Ideally, if the "mode 3" theory is true, I would think dark frames by "mode 1" show some artificial patterns which dissapear in more noisy "mode 3" dark frames. So my biggest question is: Why do those D3s photos have such artificial pattern even after using "mode 3"? I hope D3s users show your test and confirm if this really happens. Post Extras:       skywolf856 sage Reged: 01/25/08 Loc: SE Michigan Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: Ranger Tim]       #4213087 - 11/27/10 12:49 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Tim, So are you saying you don't use mode-3 and let the camera process the filter after your shots? I have a Nikon D80 and am also learning what works best. Post Extras:       Steve OK sage Reged: 09/22/07 Loc: OKC, OK Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: Ranger Tim]       #4213199 - 11/27/10 01:42 PM Attachment (32 downloads) Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Tim makes some very good points here. I have a modified D50, and am very happy with it. I, too, have a good selection of Nikkor lenses. And like Tim said, the "mode 3" issue just isn't a concern. Am I losing some tiny background stars to the camera's internal evil workings? Maybe. Does it keep me from learning and enjoying astrophotography? Not at all. If I had unlimited funds, and was starting from scratch, I'd probably go with Canon. But I don't, and I'm not. Here is M42 taken with my "flawed" D50... Post Extras:       neveruseforever member Reged: 11/25/09 Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: Steve OK]       #4213243 - 11/27/10 02:07 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I found the answer on dpreview http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&thread=34309201&page=6 "Mode 3 was removed from the D3 at firmware ver. 2.01, from Dec. 2008; it was available through firmware ver. 2.00. This probably implies that D700 ver. 1.01 also lacks Mode 3, although its original ver. 1.00 firmware may have had it. You should do a test to check your current firmware: Take a long-exposure black frame (lens cap on) without using long-exp. NR, then repeat using the Mode 3 method (LE NR on, but interrupt power when "JOB NR" appears on the upper LCD). If they look essentially the same, there is no Mode 3, but if the Mode 3 image has many more hot pixels - especially single ones rather than pairs - then Mode 3 works. " "The same algorithm is used in D3X. Further, the original D3X (and D3S) firmware does not allow Mode 3." Even if it "isn't a concern", making this clear could save some "concerned" people from wasting money from investigating automation mode 3 devices or wasting time doing mode 3 on DSLRs that don't allow Mode 3. Post Extras:       Nils_Lars Postmaster Reged: 01/04/08 Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: neveruseforever]       #4213257 - 11/27/10 02:17 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I would agree that there are many more important things to master before worrying about this , AP is a fun but complicated hobby. Post Extras:       Jerry Lodriguss Vendor Reged: 07/19/08 Loc: Voorhees, NJ Re: Question about Nikon DSLR "mode 3" [Re: neveruseforever]       #4213380 - 11/27/10 03:22 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I wouldn't worry about needing Mode 3 with the latest Nikon Cameras, but it is a possible concern when you start pushing the envelope and you need to worry about exact calibration. But, because Nikon does not allow you do use the Mode 3 workaround anymore by preventing it with firmware changes, this does not mean that Nikon is still not applying a blurring filter to get rid of the noise, or that Nikon is not truncating low level signal in the in-camera processing. This is what Mode 3 really was for, to stop that stuff from happening to the data. And because Nikon doesn't allow you to turn off the camera during long-exposure noise reduction, this does not mean those bad things are not still happening. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't in fact know whether they are or not, but I'm just pointing out that because you can't do a Mode 3 workaround anymore does not mean that you might not want it, or need it... Jerry Post Extras:       Pages: 1 Previous   Index   Next   Threaded   Extra information 2 registered and 8 anonymous users are browsing this forum. 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