magic612
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
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"There is NOTHING that can be done..."
#4346346 - 01/28/11 12:55 PM
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That's what I was just told by one of the WORST light pollution offenders in my town, literally 5 minutes ago. Our Post Office has HORRIBLE, horrible lighting. There are at least 5 to 7 of those ridiculous "wall pack" type lights on the sides of our post office. I spoke to the Postmaster there about the lights - nicely, politely, saying, "These lights are VERY bright and distracting to drivers."
Her response? "It's for security."
I said, "How is it for security when I can see shadows from these lights 1/2 mile away?"
Her response? "It's for security."
I said, "It's not lighting up anything 1/2 mile away - that's wasted light."
Her response: "Those lights have been there for 9 or 10 years. And they are the very energy efficient bulbs, so it's not wasting energy."
I got more specific, and explained I am an amateur astronomer and that the lights contribute to light pollution, because they aim up - I asked if they could be shielded DOWN instead."
"There's nothing that can be done. 'They' won't change anything."
I asked, "Who is 'they'?"
"The Post Office"
Okay, so who do I contact to see about getting something done?
"No one - 'they' won't do anything. I'll log your complaint, and tell my superior, but 'they' won't do anything. There's nothing that can be done."
I left after that. And obviously I disagree that "nothing" can be done, and I won't give up. There is ALWAYS something that can be done. She just didn't WANT to do anything.
Fine. I'll get "something" done about it. You can be assured of that. No violence or breakage - but I'll get something done alright. And those lights WILL change, if it takes me 10 years to get it done.
GAH!
This is what we're up against folks - complete IGNORANCE of the situation, and the notion that the lights already ARE "efficient" and are for "security" and that people "want" them and that there's "nothing that can be done."
Just watch. I think I just found my new "astronomy outreach" location. Public property, plenty of folks that drive by there, plenty of folks stopping there - oh yes, I'll get "something" done, for sure. 
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UmaDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/15/10
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: magic612]
#4346428 - 01/28/11 01:26 PM
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Keep trying! Someone higher up may take notice of a well-worded letter which appeals to common sense and clearly outlines the cost saving and security incentives. Sell those hard because to a non-astronomer paper-pusher the night sky isn't of great interest.
The issue of security is tricky because, although there is no evidence that is is improved through lighting, it's hard to sell this point. I think there are two points you should emphasize (I know you've already made one of them):
1. Light going off the property or into the sky is inefficient and isn't helping security. Shielding and reduced wattage would mean just as much light on the property but less energy. Tell them that a single 500W security light left on for 2 hours a night will, in a year, have produced as much CO2 as an airliner traveling 570 miles. For a company that has won an environmental award, they could be doing better. www.usps.com/communications/newsroom/2007/pr07_053.htm
2. Police reports indicate that IR-activated lighting improves security because the sudden illumination elicited by an intruder draws attention. Drawing of attention is, of course, the purpose of security. This is achieved best by IR-activated lighting. This seems like a fairly self-evident point.
The implementation of the above two items will probably pay for themselves in the first year and thereafter provide a cost saving.
Edited by csa/montana (01/28/11 03:36 PM)
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magic612
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: UmaDog]
#4346437 - 01/28/11 01:31 PM
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There are always @$$holes out there, nothing we can do about that. Keep trying! Someone higher up may take notice of a well-worded letter which appeals to common sense and clearly outlines the cost saving and security incentives. Sell those hard because to a non-astronomer paper-pusher the night sky isn't of great interest.
I only went the astronomy route because she was clearly of the opinion that the cost of the energy for the lighting was irrelevant, and already was energy efficient, and the security provided was reason enough to leave them. My complaint about glare/brightness didn't have any impact, so I figured I'd try another direction.
Based on how she reacted from that, it was clear she didn't give a rat's patootie about anything I had to say. She was going to log the complaint and forget about it.
But I won't.... 
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Mary B
Vendor - Echo Astronomy and Electronics
Reged: 05/21/10
Loc: Minnesota
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: magic612]
#4346493 - 01/28/11 01:56 PM
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Run it up the chain of command, with the post office losing money an approach offering savings by pointing them down and using a smaller bulb may work.
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UmaDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/15/10
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: magic612]
#4346495 - 01/28/11 01:57 PM
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She's just being unreasonable, so there's nothing you could have said. I think the point is that "efficiency" is not a binary condition and there is always room for improvement. If the improvement is significant then it's worth pursuing. Perhaps you can put together figures to demonstrate that. If you can back up what you're saying with graphs and numbers, people are more likely to listen.
Hmmm... I spend my work life making graphs. Maybe should come up with some stuff for LP...
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lambermo
sage
Reged: 07/16/07
Loc: .nl
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: UmaDog]
#4347870 - 01/29/11 05:40 AM
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Your idea of an "astronomy outreach" location *nearby* such obvious light pollution is interesting. That's a good way to educate ppl. of the issue at hand. And it always helps to bring more ppl to this wonderful hobby.
Here's my club at the end of such an outreach event : http://www.dse.nl/~ewsk/fotoalbums/Sterrenkijkdagen/2010/Afbreken-img_3203.jpg
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magic612
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/30/08
Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: lambermo]
#4348199 - 01/29/11 10:25 AM
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Your idea of an "astronomy outreach" location *nearby* such obvious light pollution is interesting. That's a good way to educate ppl. of the issue at hand. And it always helps to bring more ppl to this wonderful hobby.
Here's my club at the end of such an outreach event : http://www.dse.nl/~ewsk/fotoalbums/Sterrenkijkdagen/2010/Afbreken-img_3203.jpg
...
Can't hurt to educate people about the problem when it is right there in front of them. 
Great pic - same idea, yes?
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lambermo
sage
Reged: 07/16/07
Loc: .nl
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: magic612]
#4348641 - 01/29/11 02:13 PM
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Great pic - same idea, yes?
Sadly no, this is right outside our cities observatory (the white building on the left) and as the main activities are there we had no choice other than to set up next to it. As you can see the street lights are horrible.
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UmaDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/15/10
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: lambermo]
#4348954 - 01/29/11 05:03 PM
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Can't you get something done about those lights? There outside an observatory after all!
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lambermo
sage
Reged: 07/16/07
Loc: .nl
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: UmaDog]
#4349041 - 01/29/11 05:50 PM
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That's what you'd expect, right ? This one is even maintained by the city (the building that is). As I've understood various attempts have already been made to get it darker there ... clearly to no avail at all.
Maybe I should climb the bureaucracy castle myself too for another attempt.
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UmaDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/15/10
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: lambermo]
#4349073 - 01/29/11 06:02 PM
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What a pity....
It's got to be worth a shot. What's hold things back? Are there neighbours who complain and want the lights there?
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Loc: AR
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: UmaDog]
#4355005 - 02/01/11 07:39 AM
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Don't worry. Post Office is going bankrupt, and most, if not all, small POs like that one will likely shut down or be sold off in a few years. I RARELY use their servivces any more. You might point out to the regional Postmaster that removing the offending lights will save a few hundred dollars a year.
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dwright
sage
Reged: 12/12/09
Loc: Sonoran Desert
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: magic612]
#4355262 - 02/01/11 10:08 AM
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She just didn't WANT to do anything.
The postmaster (postmistress?) likely has little or no say in what happens to the building or its lighting. There are probably federal regulations that require it to have some kind of security lighting... after all, the postal service has some responsibility for the mail they handle. Replacing the fixtures with glare-preventing hardware would cost money* (and perhaps a good chunk of it... have you priced full-cutoff fixtures?), and as John said, the USPS doesn't have a lot to spare. Even if new lighting would reduce costs in the long run, it costs more now. And if they do it for one PO, how many other "wackos" are going to stamp their little feet and demand that their local POs follow suit?
I think it would be great to get rid of all glaring and unnecessary lighting... but there are two (or more) sides to every issue.
*Maybe you could offer to fund the replacement...?
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dkb
sage
Reged: 07/23/08
Loc: Minnesota
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: dwright]
#4356362 - 02/01/11 06:17 PM
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I think it will take a lot of education and hard numbers to prove to a lot of people the benefits of better lighting. I've even run into the problem that my local electric co-op WANTS you to use more electricity. Yes, I know, shocking. So they use "security" as one way to get people to use more lighting. This is something that I believe can be shown not to be true and eventually convince people with an open mind about but in many cases you have a large "marketing" campaign against such thinking.
As UmaDog mentioned, you may have better luck if you figured out what wattage lighting they are using and what wattage lighting they could use instead if all of that light was going where it is supposed to go. Some places have much higher electric rates then others and could make a difference.
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Ian Robinson
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/29/09
Loc: Gateshead.NSW ,Australia (33S ...
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: dkb]
#4356653 - 02/01/11 08:05 PM
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Essentially I have no chance of a dark back yard until my next door neigbours go to bed and turn of their kitchen and outside lights.
At least the crazy guy on the otherside hasn't replaced that fluoro light globe over his back patio since it was "dealt with" by your's truely. He used to leave it on 24/7 and it lit his back yard, my back yard, and all the other neigbours' back yards up like it was day time ..... ABSOLUTELY NO PRIVACY and extreme light trespass .... GRRRRR .....
Much fustration was had over that light.
There was absolutely no point trying to reason with his guy.
Edited by csa/montana (02/01/11 10:29 PM)
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Ian Robinson
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/29/09
Loc: Gateshead.NSW ,Australia (33S ...
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: Ian Robinson]
#4356700 - 02/01/11 08:19 PM
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Lot to be said for being proactive.
If there's a light that you want shielded , offer to pay for and do the shielding or redirecting yourself maybe and see how they respond then.
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Loc: AR
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." *DELETED*
[Re: Ian Robinson]
#4356728 - 02/01/11 08:29 PM
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Post deleted by John Fitzgerald
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rboe
Reged: 03/16/02
Loc: Phx, AZ
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: John Fitzgerald]
#4357600 - 02/02/11 09:09 AM
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Gentlemen; you are treading into personal property rights violations here and you are placing your interests above your neighbors. That will never indear you or your cause to folks that normally could care less what you do.
At best we are looking for empathic feelings to our plight which means success will take a bit more work (but the results are usually longer lasting) on your part.
At worst you end up like the Hatfields and McCoys; not very productive at all and certainly not the tact Cloudy Nights wishes to encourage.
Keep in mind that some folks are just not going to listen to reason (I have a neighbor like that) or are just abit more than a bit off tilt. Happens.  No good solution other than moving in that case.
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Loc: AR
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: rboe]
#4358167 - 02/02/11 01:33 PM
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It's a PUBLIC building. Every citizen should have input into its operation. At least a formal letter to that local postmaster's superior is in order.
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George N
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/19/06
Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
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Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..."
[Re: UmaDog]
#4358372 - 02/02/11 03:01 PM
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Can't you get something done about those lights? There outside an observatory after all!
I hang around at a public observatory that has wall pack security lights that can be turned off when observing. Why the lights? ‘cuz every insurance company contacted required them before issuing a policy! We now leave them turned off, but if there’s ever a major loss and the police report sez that the wall packs were off we could be fighting the insurance company in court for years.
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