Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Problem with ALT motor??
#4348064 - 01/29/11 09:00 AM
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Hi,
There is an issue with my CPC-925 alt axis engine. As a matter of fact, the issue has been building up almost unnoticed over the last few months, but last night I had a real problem: the scope was unable to slew up or down at higher speeds (higher than rate 6)
Tracking stars still functions perfectly (I took pictures from 20:00 until 03:30 and most of the 30 second subs show very nice point-like stars), but manual slewing or using the goto was a disaster.
Manual slew at rate 9 was extremely slow. Most of my gotos failed as they also were anything but smooth.. During goto, the scope even stopped for approx. 30 seconds and then resumed for a couple of times... until it gave up or went nuts and kept on drifting.
Today, I started with an investigation and here are my main conclusions:
1. the issue is temperature related: the colder it gets, the more pronounced the issue becomes. Last night, the temperature went down to -5°C = 23°F. At the beginning of the session, slewing in ALT was slow, but still doable... At 03:00 it barely moved.
This noon, when the scope was indoors nice and warm, slewing was back to "normal": there still is a speed difference between slewing in ALT or AZ.
AZ always is swift and smooth. When you release the button, the motor immediately stops.
In Alt, the movements are slower, the motor does not make a consistent smooth humming noise (there sometimes are some small hiccups) and if you release the motion button, it tends to continue for another half a second.
2. I measured power consumption of the system by putting a current meter in between the battery and the scope. When I activate the AZ-motor at rate 9, it draws about 0.4-0.5 Ampere.
Activating the ALT-motor makes the system draw about 1.4 Amps... It looks as if the ALT engine is under heavy load as it draws 3 times more power.
3. The current measurement was done with both clutches disengaged, so there is no reason to assume that scope unbalance or bad clutch coupling is the cause.
4. I connected the NexStar handset to the AUX port, and the result is the same.
5. At night I also did a factory reset, so we can rule that one out.
6. I also swapped power sources: Powertank and DC regulated Power Supply.
What now? Where should I focus my further troubleshooting steps on? Your help is very welcome!!
Of course I am aiming to avoid shipping my scope back to Celestron... we all know this means I will be grounded for months then. I have been a good boy, so I don't deserve that!
Thanks!
Koen.
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4348275 - 01/29/11 11:10 AM
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Try open the fork arm cover where the Dec (or Alt) motor is. Run the motor and observe what's happening. It's really easy to open the fork arm cover.
Celestron sells replacement motors but I think it's only available fo USA residents.
http://celestron.com/c3/category.php?CatID=110
If you can't access the link, that means it's not accessible to foreign countries. Contact nearest Celestron dealer where you live.
Peter
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4348580 - 01/29/11 01:41 PM
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Also, after removing the fork arm cover, you can easily remove the big worm wheel and run the motor. If the motor is still having a hard time turning, then I suspect defective motor. If the motor spins freely with the worm wheel removed, then it's probably the worm gear binding too much with the worm wheel probably due to cold weather. It's probably the best time to adjust the worm mesh while the weather is still cold. This way the mesh should be good for all four seasons.
Peter
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Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4349984 - 01/30/11 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Celestron sells replacement motors but I think it's only available fo USA residents.
http://celestron.com/c3/category.php?CatID=110
If you can't access the link, that means it's not accessible to foreign countries. Contact nearest Celestron dealer where you live.
I checked the link. It opens, but as soon as you click on a sub-item, it returns an empty list, so I suppose that this means "no spares for Europeans" 
I wonder if someone knows if Canada is regarded as part of the US where spares are shipped to: I have some family over there that I could have the items shipped at...
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Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4349985 - 01/30/11 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Also, after removing the fork arm cover, you can easily remove the big worm wheel and run the motor. If the motor is still having a hard time turning, then I suspect defective motor. If the motor spins freely with the worm wheel removed, then it's probably the worm gear binding too much with the worm wheel probably due to cold weather. It's probably the best time to adjust the worm mesh while the weather is still cold. This way the mesh should be good for all four seasons.
Peter
Peter,
I kind of expected this suggestion, so I guess this will be the next thing to do... I'll take some pictures and post them here if I can't figure out by myself how things should be.
Thank you for your help!!
BTW: I know there have been topics on the forum with some explanations about the driving mechanism and its adjustments... Does someone know by heart where I can find them??
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Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4350147 - 01/30/11 08:39 AM
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Okay,
I removed the cover of the fork arm and made 2 movies.
The first one shows the engine running without the main worm wheel in place. You can hear that this motor runs a bit slower then the AZ motor with its clutch disengaged.
Movie of CPC ALT motor running freely.
For the second movie, I reinstalled the worm wheel and reran the motors.
Movie of worm gear back in place...
What is the verdict of the jury?
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4350452 - 01/30/11 12:04 PM
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Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/nexstargps/Number/3407266/page/25/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
I am hearing impaired so I am not the best person to tell you about the sound. I tested my CPC0800 and it appears my Dec motor is a little louder than RA motor. Probably because the Dec motor has to move the heavy scope up and down whether it's balanced or not. I am not sure of the load on RA axis as compared to Dec axis but RA axis motor was a little quieter but moved a little slower than Dec axis.
To compare yours with mine visually, it appears your Dec motor moves equally as fast as mine. My Dec appears to move a little faster than RA.
I know this does not help much.
Peter
EDIT: I retested by dis-engaging the clutch knobs and my Dec motor is still a little louder than RA motor.
Edited by Peter in Reno (01/30/11 12:12 PM)
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Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350634 - 01/30/11 01:19 PM
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Peter,
I really appreciate your input. So your scope does the opposite compared with mine... My Dec motor definitely is weaker than the RA. Would swapping them be a good idea?
I guess you provided the correct forum thread. I'm not convinced it applies to me (I mean, I don't think that loosening the binding between gears will help, as I manually applied some downforce om the small worm-wheel and it had no effect on the issue.), but it is a fine reference in case I need to fiddle a bit more with the adjustments.
Concerning the speed of the motor: did you notice the difference in speed on my videos with or without engaged clutch? Is this the same on your scope? I doubt it, because I remember that my Dec motor was moving way faster when it was new. The speed of the RA and Dec axis were very alike. Now it isn't the case anymore.
I hope some other forum members will provide me with their thoughts... Or otherwise I'll mail this case toward Celestron...
Thank you.
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tjay
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/03/07
Loc: just outside of Toronto
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4350700 - 01/30/11 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Celestron sells replacement motors but I think it's only available fo USA residents.
http://celestron.com/c3/category.php?CatID=110
If you can't access the link, that means it's not accessible to foreign countries. Contact nearest Celestron dealer where you live.
I checked the link. It opens, but as soon as you click on a sub-item, it returns an empty list, so I suppose that this means "no spares for Europeans" 
I wonder if someone knows if Canada is regarded as part of the US where spares are shipped to: I have some family over there that I could have the items shipped at...
Koen,
Parts don't show up on the Celestron page from Canada either. I used a anonymous web proxy to see them from here. I don't know why Celestron decided to offer parts directly only to people in the US.
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4350705 - 01/30/11 02:03 PM Attachment (42 downloads)
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The part numbers for Dec and RA axis motors are different:
Dec motor: CPC-F00-9, $56
RA motor: CPC-F00-8, $56
They both look the same but I don't know what's different.
Picture of Dec motor:
Peter
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Phil Wheeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Loc: 3 miles WNW of Celestron
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4350720 - 01/30/11 02:08 PM
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The only somewhat puzzling thing is the temperature relationship. When you measured the very high dec motor current was that at room temp or out in the cold?
It sounds like the easiest fix (if you can get one) will be to replace the dec motor. Weird Celestron would not have a parts distributor in Europe: Do you have a local astro dealer who could order one for you (likely at twice the price!)?
I live about 3 miles from Celestron, but that's never been a big plus, unless I'm returning a scope for repair under warranty or 8 years ago when I had them recoat my C5+ optics. I just did a Google search on "Celestron parts" and found this rather scary thread:
http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/p/46454/445281.aspx
But I doubt the truth of it because I can go here:
http://celestron.com/c3/product.php?CatID=111&ProdID=677
and add a "Motor ALT/DEC for CPC Series Telescopes" to my cart for $56. But I doubt I can walk in the door over there tomorrow and buy one (it may well be shipped from China!).
If you don't have a local option to buy a motor, let me know if I can help -- assuming you decide on the "replace the dec motor cure".
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Phil Wheeler]
#4350728 - 01/30/11 02:12 PM Attachment (39 downloads)
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Picture of RA motor:
I think the RA motor cables are longer than Dec motor cables. I think the motors are the same.
Peter
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350739 - 01/30/11 02:16 PM
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I believe the link Phil provided was dated (May 2010) before Celestron started offering spare parts (Aug/Sept 2010).
Peter
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Phil Wheeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Loc: 3 miles WNW of Celestron
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350767 - 01/30/11 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Picture of RA motor:
I think the RA motor cables are longer than Dec motor cables. I think the motors are the same.
Looks that way from the C website.
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Phil Wheeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Loc: 3 miles WNW of Celestron
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350773 - 01/30/11 02:29 PM
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I believe the link Phil provided was dated (May 2010) before Celestron started offering spare parts (Aug/Sept 2010).
You mean the "scary thread"? Seems likely, since I can apparently order parts on line now. It's strange that parts are not available from a European distribution center or some such but a search for "Celestron Europe" yielded nada.
Edited by Phil Wheeler (01/30/11 02:30 PM)
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Phil Wheeler]
#4350784 - 01/30/11 02:33 PM
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Try unplugging and plugging motor cables several times to make sure the contacts are well connected and re-test the motor.
Peter
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350807 - 01/30/11 02:40 PM
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If you don't belong to CPC Yahoo Group, you should join and post your issues there and hopefully you'll get better answers.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Celestron-CPC/?yguid=360019667
Peter
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Phil Wheeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Loc: 3 miles WNW of Celestron
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Peter in Reno]
#4350835 - 01/30/11 02:50 PM
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Excellent idea on the cables, Peter: Bad electrical connections are often the culprit.
Yahoo: Big frustration to me. I've forgotten my password but every time I try to get it I fail; and when I try to re-register it says my user name is already in use (and that's with several IDs). Anyway, I hate having to rejoin the 25 or so groups I was in.
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Koen Dierckens
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/09
Loc: Antwerp, Belgium
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Phil Wheeler]
#4350859 - 01/30/11 02:57 PM Attachment (47 downloads)
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The only somewhat puzzling thing is the temperature relationship. When you measured the very high dec motor current was that at room temp or out in the cold?
Phil, that was inside, nice and warm. The day after the issue came up.
I think I'm gonna rerun this test with the main gear removed.
Hey guys, I really appreciate your feedback. Peter, I will do the wiring check tomorrow.
I keep your offerings for buying the spares for me as a very comforting "plan B". I'll check the regional dealers out and see what the local availability and prices are.
If you guys ever need some favor from this side of the ocean: do not hesitate and contact me!!
BTW, I thought I'd just attach a pic of M82 I was taking during the session when I ran into problems. The result is far below your quality standards, Peter, I know, but keep in mind I've only started in June of last year (=10 Deep Sky imaging sessions) with an unmodded Nikon D70 and no wedge in a light polluted city.
83x30 second subs
Edited by Koen Dierckens (01/30/11 02:59 PM)
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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/15/08
Loc: Reno, NV
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Re: Problem with ALT motor??
[Re: Koen Dierckens]
#4351009 - 01/30/11 04:02 PM
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Koen,
This is an excellent image. Only 30 seconds subs? Sounds like your light pollution is not as bad as mine. My first image was probably worse than yours. I started with Atlas EQ-G and C-11 long before CPC0800. When I purchased CPC0800, I already had imaging experience.
Now I think about this. You have been using your scope in Alt/Az setup which means the Dec motor is always running and probably in both directions. That's a lot of work on the Dec motor moving a heavy OTA whether it's well balanced or not. I don't think RA motor works as hard and tracks in one direction. If you use the scope all night many times, that may be a lot of work on Dec motor. I wonder if Dec motor has a harder life than RA motor in Alt/Az setup.
With the wedge, the Dec motor only runs when slewing to the target. While the scope is tracking, only RA motor moves in one direction and Dec motor never moves. I think the load on RA motor is not as bad as Dec motor while the scope is mounted on a wedge if the RA axis is well balanced.
The previous two paragraphs are just opinions, not necessarily facts. Maybe others can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.
Peter
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