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Gargoyle
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Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Long Island, New York
Ethernet to USB Connectivity
      #4367880 - 02/06/11 03:42 PM

Hey All,

Figured I'd share my trial and tribulations encountered this weekend related to Ethernet to USB connectivity.

A few weeks ago a member posted a request for info related to extending communications capability to a mount where the computer controlling it was remotely located. Specifically, he was looking for Ethernet to serial communications capability. The thread weaved a bit due to different forms of advice, but kept going back to Ethernet to USB as a more robust solution (being that a USB to serial converter could be used to address direct serial requirements, while providing additional USB capability with the remaining open ports on the Ethernet-USB adapter).

Based on the recommendations (and direct help in defining the configuration of the unit) from another poster obtained via PM, I purchased the adapter displayed as a USB 2.0 over IP. For under $100.00, it provides 4 USB 2.0 port accessibility over an Ethernet connection. After spending Friday evening and most of Saturday playing with the adapter under different configurations, I have to report that this truly works as advertised.

My current configuration (sans observatory) is a permanently mounted pier, with my equipment mounted and covered responsibly. Problem is it gets a bit cold here in the winter, and standing outside with a laptop shooting pictures get a bit "old in the cold" if you all know what I mean. I tried remote desktop with laptop co-located with the pier but the lagging rendered that solution unusable. Nevertheless this solution worked perfectly. No lagging, with the exception of the Meade DSI cameras, all peripherals were connected, tested and supported. If you are considering long distance remote access of your equipment (serial or USB 2.0), you should consider this solution. Here's the link that Paul provided me: http://www.cooldrives.com/usb20ovipne4.html

The only "cons" I experienced was with determining how to deploy the adapter (by including it within my current home network or by running a separate Ethernet cable specifically for this). Flipping back and forth from the network to a dedicated connection from my laptop caused me some confusion in determining a correct configuration, but this was wholly driver error and I eventually figured it out. Although it will function as part of an existing network (as I tested), I felt it would degrade the existing network and be influenced by traffic as well so I installed a second network interface card in my computer and ran a dedicated Ethernet line to the outside connection box. So from that interface box I can connect to the Pier or to the CGEM just about anywhere in my yard. This provides lots a flexibility as well as warm nights! The other "con" was that for a home based PC with no wireless capability, you may want to consider installing an additional NIC card, so that you can still have internet access. Kudos to Paul for pointing that out to me.

This is a solid remote connectivity solution and for those using remote desktop it also frees up a device!
Best Regards,

Jerry


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tulit
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Reged: 07/04/10

Loc: ON
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #4367950 - 02/06/11 04:16 PM

I wonder how it would work connected to a wireless bridge? i.e. Ethernet to WiFi. I think this would be the ultimate solution )no need to be physically connected).

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Peter in Reno
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Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: tulit]
      #4368847 - 02/06/11 11:28 PM

Jerry,

Thanks for the report. I ordered the same "box" and should get it this week. I plan to connect directly from laptop's ethernet port to the "box" and use USB connections to SXVR-M25C camera, Lodestar autoguider, MicroTouch autofocuser and CPC0800 via USB to serial adapter. Any tips you can provide or is it very straight forward?

Peter


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ccs_hello
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Reged: 07/03/04

Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4368894 - 02/06/11 11:58 PM

Peter,

If using direct connection without an Ethernet switch in between, an Ethernet cross-over cable is required.

Also note that many astroCCD imagers require High-speed USB 2.0 isochronous mode for data streaming. This is the same constraint as in Meade DSI.
The best way to describe the situation is USB2 high speed is 480Mbps (and DSI needs it) while fast-Ethernet is just 100Mbps. The network will choke the data movement and that's why things won't work.

P.S. don't know if there is a USB hub inside that device. Assuming it's using the USB hub design, if any one device connects to the 4 USB ports is USB1.1, all ports will be downgraded to USB1.1. Meade DSI (and many astroCCDs) will not work under USB1.1.

P.P.S. I learned in the USB world, there is nothing called "all works".

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Peter in Reno
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Reged: 07/15/08

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Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #4368980 - 02/07/11 01:11 AM

Jerry,

Did you use cross-over cable for direct connection from NIC card to the "box"?

Peter


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Gargoyle
sage
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Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Long Island, New York
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4369197 - 02/07/11 07:05 AM

Peter,

Direct connect. I tried cross over initially on my first attempts to get it to work. I'll follow up later today with detail for some tips. Great info from CSS_Hello, that could be the problem I'm encountering with my DSI's.

Jerry

Jerry


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PHampson
sage


Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #4369647 - 02/07/11 12:03 PM

FWIW.

I've always used plain old Cat5e - not crossover. I think most of these units have auto cross-over.

Sorry that I didn't check before, but cooldrives apparently has a USB2 to gigabit ethernet unit also available ($99) which would obviate the USB2 to ethernet bottleneck. Since my setup works, I never bothered to search for anything better. I have no idea if the unit would revert to USB1.1 if that kind of device were attached, though. Probably would, but you could get around that with multiple units and a gigabit switch I would think.

I've used my DSI1Pro successfully as a guider with the ST402 as my imager. Haven't had it out since I got my ST2000XM though. My DSI1Pro, though, always 'worked' with USB1.1 - at least for short (< 5 sec.) exposures on a very bright star. The background noise would fluctuate but not enough to throw off the guiding. The DSI issues seem to be related both to transfer speed and power delivery. The units seem to deliver plenty of power but obviously don't meet the transfer speed requirement. Meade claims the DSIs are USB1.1 backward compatible with the caveat that it depends on the overall system it's hooked to. Guess I got lucky. The later DSIs with bigger chips, etc. would probably have more problems.

To answer the wireless question - I would think that 802.11a/g/ or n (not b) would work for USB1.1 devices hooked to the unit if you have a clear signal with no interference from household stuff or neighbors. At least in my neighborhood, though, wireless stuff seems to be everywhere and is easy for me to pick up. Luckily for me, they all seem to use channels 1, 10, or 11 for some reason, so I have channel 5 all to myself but I can't expect that to last. Lots of devices default to 3 or 6 so it's probably just a matter of time. Even though the transfer specs would seem to be there for wireless, I'm not sure I'd trust it much for transferring image data. At least with my ST2000XM, it just takes one 'glitch' to basically spoil a whole subexposure. The glitches I've had to this point have all been related to trying to run memory intensive apps on my admittedly dated laptop while a subexposure is downloading. For example, running CCDStack while a download is in progress. It might not happen on a multi-core machine with more memory or have anything to do with wireless but it has made me a little gun-shy, so to speak. I do access the internet via wireless while I'm imaging without apparent problems. I've had no problems with the USB2 to IP device given my application which uses just 3 ports - USB-to-serial adapter, JMI PCFocus, and ST2000XM.


Paul


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Gargoyle
sage
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Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Long Island, New York
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4369844 - 02/07/11 01:28 PM

To All,

Following up on tips and tricks when deploying this unit, I would stress not to complicate the environment as primary. Paul had sent me directions via a PM that were very clear and direct. Although I followed them, I did so under varying conditions such as directly connecting the unit and connecting downstream from a router and a switch. Due to the environment changes, my expectations as to how the unit was identified and configured were not as expected. Here's the differences I found:
1. If direct connect, then you should use the default IP as programmed in the unit. You'll need to configure your NIC card to that IP schema (including gateway, etc.). Additionally if you have multiple NIC cards (wireless, ethernet) there could be contention as to assignment to the proper card of calling resources (i.e. internet vs. the USBIP assignment). Paul's advice addressing this problem was spot on, that being to assign an Interface Metric via the NIC properties that sequences the assisgnment. you can also just enable-disable one card vs. the other, but that can get old quick. Nevertheless, that was the main issue I sa with direct connect.
2. Over network: I do not know what the "influencing contention" of running this over a network would be (I'm not a network guy, I'm an applications guy), but I do know my three boys are all college students and fling a lot of stuff across that router. I also know that the ST-4000XCM is also sending a lot of data back to CCDSoft, so between the boys and the camera, there's bound to be some contention somewhere. I figured if I was going to go through all of this work, I might as well just run it direct from another NIC card. But everyone's environment is different. That being the case, my test of the unit over the home network still required that I identify the unit as Paul defined, but after that was done I selected DCHP instead of static IP and saved that setting to the unit. It worked OK with DCHP selected. So I guess it will work over a home network (sans contention). My understanding from the guys I work with is that these ethernet to USB devices are used with home theater and office audio-video type setups.

Between the two settings, I'm more comfortable with static IP. My problem was that I was jumping back and forth between my PC, a laptop, direct connect and home network, static and DCHP. My test environment was not secure, so I ended up wasting about a day (but I sure learned a lot!).

I'm still struggling with css_hello's observations specific to the DSI's. I agree with the fact that USB 1.1 usage will drop all other ports to that level. I'm thinkg he's right that even though the ST-4000XCM supports 4kps USB throughput, it may be USB 1.x and hence it functions.

I'd like to figure this out 'cause I want to use the DSI's with the CGEM.

Hoe that helps a bit.

Jerry


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Peter in Reno
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Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #4370419 - 02/07/11 05:27 PM

I kind of figured that modern ethernet devices have auto cross over detection. As soon as I get the "box", I'll report my experience. I plan to use SXVR-M25C camera, Lodestar autoguider and CPC0800 with USB to serial adapter. All three devices support USB 2.0. I also plan to add MicroTouch autofocuser which is back ordered.

Peter


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Peter in Reno
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4387224 - 02/15/11 01:36 AM

I got the "box" today. I was able to easily connect to the router and tested with USB thumb drive and it works well. This is with my desktop computer in my bedroom. The bedroom is too far away and inconvenient for my telescope setup.

My other computer is a laptop which has wired LAN and WiFi. I connected the "box" directly to the laptop wired LAN connector (bypassing the home network) and I have been unsuccessful. I set the wired IP address to 192.168.3.22 in laptop which is the default IP address of the "box". I also set the gateway address to 192.168.3.1 in laptop. After setting the default IP address, I keep getting conflict IP address saying another computer has the same IP address which I can't find. I tried with regular and cross-over ethernet cables.

I also disabled laptop's WiFi thinking it might be conflicting but that was not the case.

Any ideas on how to connect the "box" directly to the laptop and not connect to the home network?

Thanks,
Peter


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PHampson
sage


Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4387339 - 02/15/11 05:00 AM

The NIC in your laptop is the gateway and should be set to 192.168.3.1 - without a gateway address. The 'box' just assigns itself 192.168.3.22 and, if you've set the laptop to that IP also, they both have the same IP and conflict.

If I'm reading what you did right.


Paul


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Peter in Reno
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Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4387719 - 02/15/11 10:07 AM

So you are saying that I should leave IP address blank and set gateway address to 192.168.3.1 in laptop?

Thanks,
Peter


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PHampson
sage


Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4387918 - 02/15/11 11:50 AM

No. Leave the gateway line blank and set the laptop IP to 192.168.3.1, subnet 255.255.255.0.
The laptop is the gateway for the USBoverIP and has to have that address. If you are also going to use the wireless, you'll have to set the interface metric of the wired NIC to a higher number than the wireless NIC or your computer will probably try to use the wired NIC to find the internet. Windows usually defaults to using the wired card unless the metric tells it not to.


Paul


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Peter in Reno
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4387937 - 02/15/11 11:59 AM

OK. If I am imaging, I will disable the WiFi in laptop. I have no need to use the internet with my laptop while I have a desktop computer in my bedroom and use that for internet.

Thanks again,
Peter


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PHampson
sage


Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4387988 - 02/15/11 12:20 PM

Any more trouble, feel free to PM me. I also want to add for anyone else that might be looking, that this applies to WinXP. I really don't know about Vista (skipped that one) but for Win7, because they 'broke' simple IP addressing IMHO to get these Public, Work, and Home network assignments, you might have to do something a little different to get Windows to construct a workable routing table.

Good luck.

Paul


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Peter in Reno
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Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4388024 - 02/15/11 12:37 PM

My laptop is Windows Vista Home Premium. I am at work right now so I won't be able to test it in a few hours.

Peter


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Gargoyle
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Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Long Island, New York
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4388053 - 02/15/11 12:52 PM

Peter,

Sorry for the late join, but everything Paul instructed is spot on. Especially with setting the interface metric for multi NIC card devices. USB over IP does not like to share NIC's, expecially when the first card it finds does not have the correct IP (192.168.3.1).

Following up on your previous cross-over vs. direct connect, it has to be an auto cross-over detection as you stated, because it works with straight thru T568-B connnect. I proved this this weekend as I ran a dedicated line from my PC to the external port on the back of my house, and configured the connectors to straight thru.

Jerry


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Peter in Reno
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Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #4388350 - 02/15/11 03:19 PM

I went home for lunch. I am halfway through. I successfully connected the "box" directly to the laptop as per Paul's instructions. I was able to connect my thunmbdrive and view all the files stored on the thumbdrive.

It recognizes my Startech USB-to-Serial adapter but it won't connect to Celestron NexRemote for telescope control. Device Manager showed COM17 but NexRemote won't find or let me connect to COM17. If the USB-to-Serial adapter is connected directly to USB port of laptop, it works fine with NexRemote.

Also, I was not able to connect to my SXVR-M25C camera and Lodestar autoguider. Nothing happened after connecting them.

Any suggestions and tips?

Now I am back to work. Will play with the "box" some more tonight.

Tonight, I will check to see if connecting to home network works better than direct connection.

Thanks,
Peter

Edited by Peter in Reno (02/15/11 05:31 PM)


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PHampson
sage


Reged: 10/25/05

Loc: Nashville, TN
Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: Peter in Reno]
      #4388883 - 02/15/11 07:43 PM

COM ports can be problematic. Sometimes the auto virtual port stuff doesn't work. I suggest you find out which COM port is being used when the adapter is connected directly (and working) and manually assign that same COM port to the USB-to-serial adapter using device manager when you attach it through the 'box'. I do remember I had to manually assign mine the first time using TheSky but I don't recall off the top of my head which COM port it was. It may be you'll have to try several COM ports to find one that will work.

I'm not familair with the SXVR camera or Lodestar. I presume you've used them with the laptop before so the drivers, etc. are available. If the drivers won't install PnP when the cameras are plugged into the USBoverIP, I suggest you try manually installing the cameras with the CDROM or whatever they come with while they are hooked up to the USBoverIP. Keep in mind that the USB-to-serial may default the USBoverIP to USB1.1 and cause some difficulties with the USB2 devices.

Good luck.

Paul


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Peter in Reno
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Re: Ethernet to USB Connectivity new [Re: PHampson]
      #4389258 - 02/15/11 10:45 PM

Tried everything whether it's connected to home network or direct connection. It seems to recognize popular USB devices like thumbdrives and printers. But it just won't detect special USB devices like astro equipment. Because it won't detect these devices, I cannot install the drivers while connected to the "box". So I guess this product won't work for all USB devices. This "box" is basically a server like printer server and might be useful in my household. Thanks for helping.

Peter


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