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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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George N
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/19/06

Loc: Binghamton & Indian Lake NY
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: magic612]
      #4358383 - 02/02/11 03:07 PM

Quote:

That's what I was just told by one of the WORST light pollution offenders in my town, literally 5 minutes ago. Our Post Office has HORRIBLE, horrible lighting. There are at least 5 to 7 of those ridiculous "wall pack" type lights on the sides of our post office. I spoke to the Postmaster there about the lights ....




I doubt that this sort of thing is up to the local postmaster, but rather “higher ups”. If you want to change things you’ll need to convince “the top”. Although the Post Office is a “commercial corporation” (all stock owned by the Federal Government) it is still controlled by the President and listens to Congress.

BTW, wall packs are a lot less offensive if they shine down on the side of a building rather than up. Perhaps older units could have shields installed that would actually put more light on the ground while reducing sky glow? New ones need to be installed point down.


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great lesson
sage


Reged: 04/04/10

Loc: Canada
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: George N]
      #4365562 - 02/05/11 03:19 PM

Something can be done, unfortunately it takes time. Speaking as a City Planner ( not of us are bad )we do listen to the public. By laws change because of public input and over the years, light pollution is creeping into the concerns of the public. Change is slow, way too slow for me as well, but it does change. Right now I am working on a secondary plan in a small area of the city were the public's concern for light pollution is taking seriously. I have been given the Ok from Legal Services that I can regulate light pollution on Public and Commercial Lands only, residential lands are exempt and should be (I also have neighbour that drives me nuts with their back yard light as well, but as much as I hate the light, I cannot nor should I regulate how they use their property). Public and Commerical Lands can be regulated but as I have said change is slow and it starts with the public. Call your local Planning and Development Office,Councillors and anyone who will listen to your concerns regarding the amount of light pollution. The more people who call, the quicker the change. This is a bit off topic but when I was speaking with the area residents about the light pollution, they (no surprise) were not interested in the dark sky , they were more interested in sleeping patterns being affected as well as crime rates( so much light in the area the criminals could "see" what they were doing) less light= less crime (I opened myself up with that statement! but I have looked at the local crime rates and in some areas less light does equal less crime)

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: great lesson]
      #4365670 - 02/05/11 04:02 PM

Thanks for a view from the "other side". Your advice is much appreciated by those affected by LP.

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Tonk
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: csa/montana]
      #4367993 - 02/06/11 04:39 PM

Quote:

I also have neighbour that drives me nuts with their back yard light as well, but as much as I hate the light, I cannot nor should I regulate how they use their property




OK so it they were blaring out loud music at 110 Db you would leave them alone? Whats the difference when the nieigbour is not keeping bright lights to themselves. Sure I'm all for leaving neighbours alone but when there activities seriously affect you you should have redress.


We (UK) have the clean neighbour act (section 102) to deal with light nuisence and trespass from domestic properties (not commercial ones - interesting difference!). I had to tame a new near neigbour a few years ago who fitted a new 500 W security light and had it on all night and pointing over a wild pond area (semi rural location) and across the road. Its now gone! When I asked what the over bright light was for - she said to save tripping over a step in the dark. A 9W fluresent bulkhead lamp can do that job for 50 times less money! She saw the point thank goodness. Also she didn't ask for a 500W lamp - that was her electrical contractors advice!!!!!!


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: Tonk]
      #4369895 - 02/07/11 01:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I also have neighbour that drives me nuts with their back yard light as well, but as much as I hate the light, I cannot nor should I regulate how they use their property




OK so it they were blaring out loud music at 110 Db you would leave them alone? Whats the difference when the nieigbour is not keeping bright lights to themselves. Sure I'm all for leaving neighbours alone but when there activities seriously affect you you should have redress.




See, this is where we can have the start of productive light pollution / light trespass conversations with neighbors. Yes, that person CAN do what they want on their property, provided it is legal, blah, blah, blah.

But if I shine a 10,000 candlepower spotlight at their window from my property, is that only affecting me, or is it now affecting them as well? I like the idea of relating this to loud noise levels, because people don't yet link light trespass with "sound trespass" (that loud "thump, thump, thump" from hundreds of yards away), but should as they are similar. We don't tell the person affected by sound to buy earplugs, but those affected by light are told to buy shades or blinds. This should not be this way - and it will take all of us making these kinds of arguments over and over and over (and talking about them to neighbors / friends / family / at astro outreach events) to get them into the public consciousness.

My issue with the post office will undoubtedly be a long haul, but I'm willing to have that fight, because I think it's worth having - not just for the night sky, but for the neighbors nearby who have light shining in their windows, and the glare that distracts drivers at night. We'll get there - we just need to raise the awareness about the issue again and again and again, and most importantly NOT GIVE UP.


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great lesson
sage


Reged: 04/04/10

Loc: Canada
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: Tonk]
      #4370885 - 02/07/11 08:45 PM

Our by laws were written in 1978. The regulations regarding light and noise pollution stated that "No obnoxious light, noise glare or vibration shall be used " (insert any zone you want). I and other planners have consistently taken property owners to court over noise and light pollution. Every one of our cases was thrown out of court. The last case was not only thrown out of court, the judge said that we were wasting his time and that we (the city) was using blatant abuse of power against the property owners. We even had independent reports from noise and light engineers about the extreme amount of light, glare and noise and the judge hated this). This property was in a residential zone.

When we went back to legal services they told us that the real problem was the word "obnoxious" as it will not stand up in court. So we went back to our department and legal services to ask if we could remove the word "obnoxious" with something that would stand up in court. We were told no. It was explained to us that our department would not change the by law because of a "small group of complainers" so end of story, or so I thought.
Then in 2003 a hurricane ripped through the province and we lost power for 5 days. When the people finally realized that the world was not coming to an end and crime was not rampant because there was no light, they started to call our office about the by laws. The majority of people had became desensitized to the light pollution and without the light I think they became aware of how bad it really was. I know of quite a few people who had taken their kids outside to look at the stars and in some cases it was the first time the kids and their parents saw the milky way. As a result that "small group of complainers" turned into a fairly large group calling the office. Myself and a few other planners were given the ok by our dept and legal services to write a secondary plan dealing with light pollution (only on a small scale). If the residents did not band together and call, we would still be dealing with a by law from 1978 and none of the changes would have occured. there is an old saying "it takes a village to raise a child" well it takes a village to change a by law.

I am not saying that the planning office is "the end all" I am fully aware that gov departments are closed minded and will dig their their heels in at the slightest bit of change but the more citizens that band together and call gives more power to the planners so they can write the by laws.

I am sorry if I am ranting but I am passionate about this stuff and I will not stop until I can get a by law that works and it is able to standup in court


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magic612
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/30/08

Loc: S. of Chicago's light dome
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." new [Re: great lesson]
      #4371728 - 02/08/11 09:27 AM

Quote:

I am sorry if I am ranting but I am passionate about this stuff and I will not stop until I can get a by law that works and it is able to standup in court




Are you kidding me? This is INCREDIBLY useful and helpful information!! Sharing this information helps all of us (okay, ME at least) recognize what kinds of objections we are up against.

But here's the thing: I'm a sales guy for my day job. Sales is the art/science of overcoming objections to get someone to say "Yes" to buying. Well, we need to all think of ourselves in the same way for light pollution: Getting to the 'yes' after all the objections of 'no' that will undoubtedly come first.

It's patience, it's persistence, it's education. That's why I'm doing the videos I've started (see my signature below, and take a look at the video on my website). Educate first, then get to the "sale" (i.e. - the 'yes' to change things with respect to lights). Sharing those experiences here with the rest of us will help all those who read about it have a better idea of how to overcome the objection more easily and using better rhetorical tools.

And we need plenty of passionate people in this fight! So don't apologize for being passionate.


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great lesson
sage


Reged: 04/04/10

Loc: Canada
Re: "There is NOTHING that can be done..." [Re: magic612]
      #4377426 - 02/10/11 07:05 PM

You're right, it is education first. From what I have seen once the residents "see" what they are giving up - better sleeping patterns, crime not out of control, saving money, and the dark sky they are giving up, then change will happen. By the way great website

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