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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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guyroch
Vendor (BackyardEOS)
*****

Reged: 01/22/08

Loc: Under the clouds!
Re: 10Micron new [Re: guyroch]
      #6309857 - 01/13/14 09:43 AM

Quote:

However, most people taking astro photos use CCD cameras.




That is simply not true!

Guylain


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10Micron new [Re: GIR]
      #6310028 - 01/13/14 11:11 AM

Quote:

So comparing Model Maker to ASA or AP software is a bit odd and doesn't really give a truthful picture of what's going on IMHO.




Funny how the only poster I see bringing up ASA or AP software in a thread about 10Micron is you. The ASA is a great mount, buy why don't you start you own thread to defend it's honor against non-existent attacks?


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10Micron new [Re: EFT]
      #6310053 - 01/13/14 11:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

So comparing Model Maker to ASA or AP software is a bit odd and doesn't really give a truthful picture of what's going on IMHO.




Funny how the only poster I see bringing up ASA or AP software in a thread about 10Micron is you. The ASA is a great mount, buy why don't you start you own thread to defend it's honor against non-existent attacks?




With all due respect Ed, there is nothing funny about it and the comment was very much linked to 10Micron. Besides there has been a lot of "funny" comments about AP software development by some "10Micron fans" So I thought it was only fair to bring out that fact about the 10Micron software development.
And if I recall correctly you're the 10Micron rep in US, so maybe your comments about me being funny can be seen against that background


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epdreher
sage


Reged: 06/12/11

Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: 10Micron new [Re: GIR]
      #6310079 - 01/13/14 11:33 AM

Whoa there, GIR. I've got no dog in this hunt as I don't own either maker, but to imply that Ed is anything less than ethical and neutral in his comments and business dealings is overstepping your boundaries at the very least.

I've had dealings with Ed in which he actually steered me away from buying goods or services from him that he felt weren't needed. How often does a businessman do something like this?

It appears that you're far less neutral than those at whom you point your finger.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10Micron new [Re: GIR]
      #6310116 - 01/13/14 11:55 AM

I'm not a moderator so it is not proper for me to explain the rules or proper etiquette (even when no one else will).

Please help keep threads meaningful and on topic as it benefits everyone.

Edited by EFT (01/13/14 03:49 PM)


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10Micron new [Re: EFT]
      #6310186 - 01/13/14 12:26 PM

I hear you Ed and will not mention AP, ASA or any other manufacturers names in this thread. Have to say that I'm a bit surprised of your strong reaction because still don't quite understand why it's such a bad thing to bring out different views on some quite important issues. Even if that includes mentioning some other manufacturers names.
But enough about that and back to the original topic...


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10Micron *DELETED* new [Re: GIR]
      #6310216 - 01/13/14 12:49 PM

Post deleted by EFT

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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: 10Micron new [Re: EFT]
      #6310249 - 01/13/14 01:05 PM

I'd be interested in the "plate solving vs. mount modeling methods and software" thread, but would be even more interested if it also including guiding versus "unguided." I mean, which is more accurate (and we can use the same mount(s) as the base), methods using a guide camera, or methods using mount modeling/purely software guiding. We say someone took 20 minutes unguided, but is that more or less accurate than 20 minutes guided (on the same mount, even)?

Oops, now I'm forking this thread!

Paul


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10Micron new [Re: GIR]
      #6310276 - 01/13/14 01:19 PM

BTW, we all get off-topic to some extent (even this brief discussion of thread etiquette is off-topic), but its a question of why something is going off topic (i.e., a real topic or subtopic of interested spawned by the original topic, trying to steer something back on topic like here, or simply trolling) and at what point it makes more sense to start a new topic. The best example is when someone joins a thread and changes the title. That's pretty clear cut.

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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: 10Micron@NEAF new [Re: EFT]
      #6310281 - 01/13/14 01:21 PM

Ed are you going to neaf? bringing any mounts?



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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
*****

Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 10Micron@NEAF new [Re: Pinbout]
      #6310304 - 01/13/14 01:32 PM

Quote:

Ed are you going to neaf? bringing any mounts?






Yes. We should at least have a GM1000HPS, GM2000HPS and the new binomount there from 10Micron.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6310319 - 01/13/14 01:39 PM

I would second this- one of the biggest strengths I have seen with the 10Micron GM1000HPS I was using was beig able to do a pointing model when in the field with no camera. And the pointing was fast enough for it to not take long. It was really neat how by the end of a large pointing group, stars were dropping into the reticle's basket when slewing from across the sky.

GIR, stop writing here and get out and get some experience. The 10Micron controller really has a lot going for it.

-Rich

Quote:

Tonk,

Couldn't agree more. It works WITHOUT a computer and it doesn't need any software at all. The other solutions out there are dud without a PC.

Gir,

I developed Model Maker because I saw a personal need for it. People like Tonk here do fine without it as did I for the first couple of months.

All my software does is automate a process that is available as manual IN THE FIRMWARE. The tracks model assisted with only power available. No other mount does that as far as I know.

As for other parties' software packages that are delivered with the mount... I started software development in the early 70's and have worked extensively in hat line of work. Let me just say that I am not always impressed by the packages floating around out there, neither in therms of robustness nor stability.

/per




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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10Micron new [Re: psandelle]
      #6310627 - 01/13/14 04:36 PM

Quote:

I'd be interested in the "plate solving vs. mount modeling methods and software" thread, but would be even more interested if it also including guiding versus "unguided." I mean, which is more accurate (and we can use the same mount(s) as the base), methods using a guide camera, or methods using mount modeling/purely software guiding. We say someone took 20 minutes unguided, but is that more or less accurate than 20 minutes guided (on the same mount, even)?

Oops, now I'm forking this thread!

Paul




Paul,

Plate solving or centering with an eyepiece or camera makes no difference at all, except for the fact that a plate solve is accurate to parts of arc-second and manual centering is not. But apart from that it is exactly the same as far as the mount is concerned. We should, in order to get the full picture, make note of how different modeling software handles the model construction.

Autoslew and TPoint collect measurements and calculates the model based on all of them at the same time. It is a one-time calculation that takes place prior to sending the model to the software responsible for handling the mount (TPoint is pointing only, but there is a counterpart for tracking, or will be, Autoslew handles the tracking and the pointing).

10Micron works differently. A model requires three points, called "base points" in order to initiate complex model calculations. So, when the scope has been synced three times it has a complex alignment. Any sync you do after that will refine the model with the additional information. You can do this point by point until you are happy with the calculated expected RMS error, all in an iterative way.

The above works when the mount is set to "Syncs refine model", but there is also a setting for "Syncs align model". The latter will simply align an existing model to the location you are syncing, in a sense moving it to the proper place. This feature can be used, for instance, if you take your scope off the mount, clean the lenses and then put it back. Flexure should be about the same but it may end up pointing slightly different due to the dovetail or something.

Models can be stored in the mount database (again in-mount, no PC necessary) and recalled at will. This is good if you decide on running a new model and want to be able to revert to the old one.

Unguided or guided, that was the question. If you guide, the model is of use only to "stabilize" the tracking of the mount and get rid of most of the periodic error (assuming 10Micron). If you do not guide, the model is the only way you can achieve your goal (tracking an object reliably and accurately). The mount can be told to track in Ra only, a feature that can be useful if you guide.

Personally, I have very little experience with guiding a 10Micron mount. I have tried it and found that it indeed does work. For me it has always been the pleasure of not having to guide that has thrilled me. Just a week or so ago I measured my GM2000HPS tracking by means of the main imager and PHD with guide outputs turned off. The mount in question has a polar alignment error of 52 arc-minutes (and some) due to mis-drilled holes in my pier-top plate; I simply cannot adjust Az any further (new holes coming up in a month or so).

The PHD guide graph showed much the same picture as a well-behaved guided mount. RMS error was 0.14 arc-seconds, a figure that would most likely improve some with a better polar alignment. The PHD oscillation index was 0.03. Mount model had, if I remember correctly, 43 points evenly spread at Alt > 30°.

So, the answer to the base question above is that the mount performs on par with guided operation on its own. At least a good deal better than the seeing. Could it be even better? Yes, I believe it could - with guiding - but would it be worth it? Not in my book.

The topic is interesting. I do not throw away subs and I don't have any pointing error to speak of. My images are crisp with round stars and I do not guide my two 10Micron mounts. My maximum achievement in a test was a one-hour exposure of M106 taken through my SW 190MN at 1m FL. I have presented it before; burned through stars and all, but round. An uneducated guess is that if it tracks this good for an hour, it should track equally well for an hour and a half, or two.

All the best,

Per

M106, single one-hour sub, GM2000HPS from my calcony pier:



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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6310649 - 01/13/14 04:45 PM

Per - thanks for the detailed insight. If they're pretty much the same, guided vs. unguided (software predictive guiding), then I figure unguided is more fun with less possible physical problems (cables, power, CCD's, user dropping the CCD on the ground because they have a sandwich in one hand while trying to set up, etc.).

The 10Micron mounts sound great, plus, for those who really want to minimize their gear (especially lugging big batteries), if they're using a DSLR, they can go without a PC and still get phenomenal unguided tracking and images. That's pretty dang cool!

Paul


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10Micron new [Re: psandelle]
      #6311549 - 01/14/14 01:23 AM

No worries, Paul!

/per


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GIR
super member


Reged: 01/02/10

Loc: Finland
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6311572 - 01/14/14 01:52 AM

Quote:


Autoslew and TPoint collect measurements and calculates the model based on all of them at the same time. It is a one-time calculation that takes place prior to sending the model to the software responsible for handling the mount (TPoint is pointing only, but there is a counterpart for tracking, or will be, Autoslew handles the tracking and the pointing).

10Micron works differently. A model requires three points, called "base points" in order to initiate complex model calculations. So, when the scope has been synced three times it has a complex alignment. Any sync you do after that will refine the model with the additional information. You can do this point by point until you are happy with the calculated expected RMS error, all in an iterative way.






A short clarification concerning the Autoslew software…

As Per said the model calculation is done only once before the mount starts using the (pointing and tracking ) model. However, in Autoslew you can refine the model by adding points (plate solves) to the model any time and let the software perform the calculation again. In TPoint the model is “locked” after the calculations. So you can’t add points to that model but have to start over and make a new model if wanting to refine it.


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orlyandico
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/10/09

Loc: Singapore
Re: 10Micron new [Re: GIR]
      #6311626 - 01/14/14 04:46 AM

Definitely running unguided is much more fun than guided, iff the results are the same.

However: I think guided will outperform unguided at small pixel scales and long exposures on a mount with no encoders. If you look at SB's ProTrack page (https://www.bisque.com/help/paramountme/what_is_protrack.htm), they show some images at modest pixel scales (1.56"/pixel).

I think if you're down in the weeds at say 0.4"/pixel then properly-working OAG will outperform unguided with mount modeling. It definitely would on an encoder-less mount. On a mount with encoders? I don't know, but I would guess yes.

Per keeps mentioning his 1 hour long unguided but that's at 1m focal length. I'm thinking his pixel scale is > 1"/pixel, probably closer to 1.5"/pixel.


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Per Frejvall
sage


Reged: 09/28/12

Loc: Saltsjöbaden, Sweden
Re: 10Micron new [Re: orlyandico]
      #6311701 - 01/14/14 06:51 AM

Gir,

Good clarification! Thanks!

Orly,

Yes, I keep mentioning it Running long sub tests is not my usual nighttime activity so available data is sparse. Image scale, if I remember correctly, is 1.24"/px (190MN, FL1000, M26C camera)

/per


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psandelle
professor emeritus


Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: 10Micron new [Re: Per Frejvall]
      #6311873 - 01/14/14 09:38 AM

orly - that makes sense. I'm wide-field at the moment, so not a big deal for me, but when I decide to go galaxy hunting, I'll keep that in mind. Fortunately, any of the mounts that do unguided so well, probably do guided as well, too. So, it's all good.

Still, one day someone will do a 60 minute exposure at < 0.5"/pixel with guided and unguided and have the official word. If I had an observatory, I'd give it a go.

Paul


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korborh
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/29/11

Loc: Arizona
Re: 10Micron new [Re: psandelle]
      #6311887 - 01/14/14 09:48 AM

Good points Orly. I expect closed loop guiding with OAG to be significantly better than any open loop unguided model based tracking, especially with long FL Reflectors.
Per, what is the FWHM of the stars in arcsec in your unguided exposure? Without this number it is hard to say what you are trading off by doing unguided. And I am sure you can do better guided.
Unguided seems very useful for short exposures, photometry, supernova hunting etc. type of work. But for serious high-res long exp imaging, a real star based feedback from OAG closed loop guiding is the way to go.


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