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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Ed,
Thanks for re -constructing and re-directing readership attention to this informative article.
Rather than comment about the contents of the article itself , which is so clearly explained that such comment would only be complementary anyway , I'm using this opportunity to re -stress my opinion / idea that I think the subscribers and readership on the whole of this fine binocular forum ( which as you know is growing almost daily)could really benefit from some kind of additional "place" within the CN site that lies somewhere between the maze of forum messages ( in which many such "mini -articles" tend to get "lost" ) and the existing dedicated CN "ARTICLES" section , which Allister and his "committee" appear to be (quite correctly in my opinion )striving to raise what are already , and always have been ,very high standards of content , whilst retaining and even adding extra qualities of "depth"and "comprehensiveness" which most members or visitors would probably expect from an item classified as an "article".
In addition to time sat at a PC reading , I would add that there is great potential in doing what I have been doing for three years now , which is actually printing off certain items of interest to read at my ow leisure .
Whilst some of the existing articles , such( EdZ) as your own incredibly detailed full scale works , would make excellent reading whilst perhaps sitting in a chair over a weekend , waiting in an airport lounge ( or train station in the UK ! ) or even whilst lazing on vacation for example , other much "shorter" length "mini-articles" or "maxi-messages" would perhaps qualify better for inclusion in a "short -stories" type of print-off folder such as could comfortably be digested individually over a lunch break or within waiting times of shorter duration.
Of course there are at least four main potential problems that spring to mind with respect to my "mini-article" or "maxi -message" vision ( pun not intended ! )
I hope that neither you Ed nor anyone else objects to me "thinking out aloud" here with these thoughts , but any response to this message may in fact greatly assist the ability to decide whether or not this IS a possible "go-er" or no more than just another one of my regular overly- ambitious "daydreams" !
1.There is a tremendous amount of material in the archives that needs sifting through.
2.Someone ( or a number of people ) would need to find the TIME to do the "sifting" and "selecting"
3. Point (2) above in itself could present problems in the areas of subjectivity ( i.e WHO has the "right" to decide what is " worthy" and what is not -- especially when the person(s) most likely to display such dedication to such a task ( such as your self ) might well also be the author of most of the "potentially useful" stuff anyway , and thus could be presented a situation , theoretically at least, where "conflict of interest" could become a possible accusation or at least a (rather distasteful and unwanted) private thought.
4.Even if it were unanimously decided that such a suggestion would be worth following up and volunteers appeared to carry out the "sifting and selecting" processes with full consent and approval ,would a new "section" presumably need to be granted space within the site (as in a kind of planning permission from above ? )
Such a section COULD be invaluable not just for "newbies" but laso very much for those ,including myself ,who although possibly regular subscribers themselves, might still benefit greatly from a more readily accessible "useful data bank".
Hoping at least not EVERYONE has fallen asleep reading this before now . If you haven't --Congratulations and thanks for taking the time to read it !
Regards --Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
Edited by EdZ (01/23/04 08:23 PM)
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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I can imagine going through a thread, for instance, the CG-5GT thread, in the Articles section, editting out all the extraneous information and then condensing that information pertaining to the subject into an "article",that would most likely be worthy of publication.
The amount of time required to do this for all of the different subjects is mind-boggling! It could also really set Cloudy Nights apart from all other unaffiliated websites.
Something this grand in scale would require the effort of not only the owners of this site to approve of such a venture, but a vast legion of volunteers that are knowledgable about a particular subject matter to actually seperate the wheat from the chaf in such a way that all "real" information remains intact and all the rest is discarded. Then they would actually need to be knowledgable enough to create an article from the information present in a readable, correctly formatted presentation.
Did I understand the statement you made correctly?
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Tom 
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
Edited by EdZ (01/23/04 08:23 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Kenny, Tom,
As you can see I cut this out of the originating thread and moved it. It is a stand alone topic. Now let's talk.
Several days ago kenny sent me an email suggesting exactly what we are discussing, and doing, here. The basis for discussion here is this. Some excellent information/discussion has a tendency to get lost sometimes in long thread strings. Forums are fluid. threads can change. Sometimes very good and extremely useful information gets lost in the middle of a long thread. For instance this started in "Prism Light Cutoff". Although it did add Forum Suggestion to the Topic, if left alone, It would get lost in Prism cutoff and further, Prism Cutoff would be cluttered with off topic, but valuable, info.
So based on Kenny's excellent suggestion, as a moderator, here is what I propose to do.
Now I must say Kenny's four points hit home, especially the potential self-indulding point, but the others nearly equally as well. It will take a tremendous effort to read thru past posts and seperate the wheat from the chaff. But some things will be found much easier than others. And I must say, some things may never be found again at all. But it's not that the gold in the ground is lost, it's the gold in hand that has been found that is valuable.
You may have noticed a few days a go I tried a few tests. Here is what I've learned I can do.
If a thread obviously splits down two paths with clear definition, it can be easily split making a new thread and changing the title for all to see what it is really about. With no intent to change content or flow from past threads, if this is the case, it is the easiest way to show a new and valuable topic. I've now done this twice, both to benefit.
I can create a new thread and lock the thread. The thread can include any current or past info, be locked, and posted with an appropriate topic identifying useful information. This would be useful if I set up a post as a repository of something like Binocular tips and Facts. Pull or copy posts from past threads and paste them into the repository, give each post an appropriate title, and then lock it.
I thought about NOT doing this for any particular models or brands, just useful information type stuff.
I thought about not breaking up the continuity of old threads. in cases like that, I would copy info to the repository.
I see this as a "one piece at a time" task. Better to start now than never.
Ok, what do you think.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Putting all the info on specific topics in one place and editing it is certainly the best way to go and most convenient for the user. However, I wouldn't want to be the one who has to do this! Tedious and time consuming work (I used to do tech writing so I know "tedious").
Publishers use an indexing program to search for key words in the text and then cross reference those words with page #'s and subheads (or in this case, post #s and thread titles). I'm not sure that such a program could work for an online site of this kind, but it may be worth looking into if the other idea turns out to be too Herculean a task for the moderators.
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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I, too, know tech writing, from the engineering side of things, and how tedious and accurate it needs to be.
EdZ, Thanks for pulling this out of the other thread...I was going to copy it into the off-topic area since I am a moderator there.
In order to really do this the right way would require a lot of time, that Brock alluded to. I do think we need to discuss it as a group. We all have a lot of fun here, but we also pass a lot of good information back and forth. I for one am richer for it. As a living forum and a living thread, we visit it as new information is added and can continue the continuity of it as it grows. Someone new coming into it will have to wade through all of it to get the meat. Is it worth it? I can only give my personal opinion about that.
What do we do? I suggested the most painful way to do it is to actually edit it as it grows, but then it looses it's personality (sorry for the living thread theme but these things do have lives of there own).
It really is a "one piece at a time" task and will be very time consuming. Is it worth the effort? The same type of information is being passed in all the forums. 
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 39690
Loc: Phx, AZ
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Some threads just need condensing. After a certain amount of time to grieve the death of a thread the good stuff (ie, kill all the jokes and trivial stuff just leaving the topic; so 99% of my stuff is deleted  ) would be pulled out and locked.
Some threads would be easier to do than others. Many could be regulated to the dust bin of history - not deleted but allowed to be pushed down to the basement. The rest could be called the basis for a FAQ, Golden Oldies or what ever sounds good.
Over time like subjects could be merged but the string would be kept intact.
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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I have another suggestion, one I have already given Ed in a private email a long time ago, but perhaps posting it here will garner more support for the idea, hopefully without embarrassing him. Almost two years ago, Springer began publishing what's now called Patrick Moore's Practical Astronomy Series. I sent a query to the editor soon after the division opened (I wanted to write a book on John Dobson, but the editor wanted a book on Dobsonians). The series is a collection of "hands on" technical guides for advanced amateurs, undergraduate students, and "general readers who want to study astronomy in more depth." Between all that Ed has written formally and the pearls of wisdom he can glean from this site (not sure about permissions from CN, but I'm sure most posters would gladly agree to being quoted in his book or be thanked in the acknowledgments), he could write binocular book that could become the "bible" of binocular astronomy. It would sell for around $35. In truth, there is not much money in book writing, with a modest advance and only 10% of the royalties, and those come only after the publisher has recouped the advance. You got to sell truckloads of books to make a decent buck, so it's more of a labor of love, but then again, so is the articles he writes and I assume the work he does as moderator. But I figure if Ed is going to spend all that time editing these threads, he might as well get something more out of it for his efforts by becoming a book author, and the result will benefit many amateur astronomers worldwide (don't sell the foreign publishing rights, Ed!).
For more info on this series, see:
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:5EHq4oqU22AJ:images.akademibokhandeln.se/images/pdf/Astronomy_SWEDISH.pdf+Springer+Practical+Astronomy+Series&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
--------------------
Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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A big thank you to all who have taken the
time to read , briefly consider , brainstorm
and reply to my suggestion during the hours I've
been "sleeping on it" .
Some very good points have been made and I'm left wondering whether I may have opened a window of opportunity or a can of worms -- or both :-)
Another idea that had crossed my mind is this:
Since in all likelihood , in reality very few of us would REALLY be even be sufficiently enthusiastic to attempt such a huge undertaking , perhaps those that can find the time and inclination could attempt to construct a "favourite compilation" of their own by method of accessing archives in the binocular forum , and eventually , after much "copying and pasting" to their own PC
at home , then present their chosen selections under a title of their choice , whether it be along the lines of "Binocular Tips" as Ed suggested , or "Golden Oldies" which rboe suggested, the latter in particular conjuring feelings of extra free license with which to include "favourite prose" --i.e without necessarily being exclusively "technical" and "neutral".
I fully appreciate for example , Eds concern with regard to keeping instructive and educational articles as free from manufacturer bias as possible , but for me , and I'm sure many other readers , one of the most interesting aspects of
reading about binoculars is the mentioning of various pros and cons , outstanding features and possible drawbacks etc etc of a wide variety of different actual binocular models.
This would seem to me to be quite a different thing to dedicating an entire article to the review of any ONE specific model , which seems to be the accepted format of the exisiting "Binocular reviews" section.
There is a world of difference between a "scientific approach" as followed by someone with the gravitas of EdZ and the often lighter -hearted ramblings of those such as myself , Brock and others.
In between there are other more "serious" contributors more than capable of providing very informative and interesting short articles.
Each and every type of writing is most enjoyable for me to read ,providing binoculars are the central topic of discussion.
Regards --Kenny.
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Some more thoughts.
Registered users have the ability to edit or delete their own posts, BUT only for a limited amount of time.
Moderators have the ability to edit , delete or move anyone's post, BUT only in their own forum. However, there is NO time limit.
I will use my moderator ability to move cohesive sections of threads or copy snipets from threads, while attempting to maintain the continuity of old threads.
If cutting an important passage out of an old thread would destroy the continuity of the old thread, the passage will remain and a copy will be pasted to the "Best Of".
If a "Best Of" thread is set up and stuff is copied into it, then a link should always be provided back to the original thread.
This forum can try this out. Others can watch and see how it progresses and decide if they want to go that route in their forum. This is a relatively small forum in comparison to some. I wouldn't want to be the mod in the Equip forum to try this.
Locking a "Best Of" thread will make it read only and keep it unclutered. Only the moderator or Admin can unlock it and will be able to post to it.
This is going to progress a lot slower than we all would like simply due to the nature of the beast.
The best persons to point out items in old threads that might be considered for COPY to "Best Of" or CUTTING thread lines would be those who participated in the thread. I do not claim to have read every thread in the Binocular forum, nor do I intend to.
I will set up a "Suggestion Box" with a sticky pin so it stays at the top of the Binocular forum. Intent would be to drop a short note maybe with a link to an old thread that has info worth consideration for bringing it forward.
Let's try it rather than talk about it.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Ed,
I greatly appreciate your time , thoughts, effort and willingness to act upon this idea.
Your provisional plan sounds great to me and certainly a major step in he right direction.
Thank You , Kenny.
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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Are you planning on having the "Best Of" thread contain the contents of all the threads that are deemed worthy? Wow! That will be huge!
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I'm not exactly sure whether or not Ed agrees with my interpretation here , but I think the word "extracts" came into the idea somewhere.
"Edited Highlights" might be a preferable description of what I had in mind.
Regards --Kenny.
--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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I know he means in editted form, but still...that's a lot of data!
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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OK I've posted the first two. One is short and needs no link. The other is condensed with a link. Funny the URL wouldn't underline as a whole link. So I posted an instruction note that you may need to copy the URL to your address window.
I see some long discussions out there. I think the way to handle thos is this. If the entire thread is relative to the discussion, then a brief paragraph or a condensed 1 page in Best Of with a link is all that would be necessary.
Still keep in mind some threads may need to be split out from inside an original thread. They can be cut out and new thread created with an appropriate title. In Best of all that woulld be needed is a short descritive paragraph and a link.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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Now that's an idea, Ed...a short synopsis of the thread content with a link to it. I bet we will see old threads resurrected and fewer new posts as a result. This will be interesting to watch develop.
What about the idea of editting out the tangent conversations that occur (all the time) and split them out if they are relevant discussions on their own (as you have down recently). That way the thread remains on topic and either continues to grow in that one direction or dies.
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I've always refrained from editing out the tangents. This is a forum, and threads often do that. However Ron made a good point that once a thread becomes old and inactive, any tangents to the original discussion, if off topic, can be cut and discarded. So I'm thinking that may be a good way to go.
I'd be inclined to act on the easy one's first. the above situation requires a lot of editing time. It would however make some good old threads more concise and cleaner for the history reader. So I like that idea, just don't know how much time I'll spend doing it.
In the meantime, fill the suggestion box.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I'm having a problem making a link whole. See the Best Of link to AFOV to see what my problem is.
I've seen where some of you add a link and give it a name instead of the long link address. Maybe that would solve my problem. How do you do that?
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Tom L
Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
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Ed, that was what I meant...removing the tangents from an inactive (dead) thread.
For naming a URL, when you are editing a reply, select the URL Instand UBB Code. It will ask you first for the link and then for the name of it. Type whatever you want. The title of the thread seems appropriate.
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Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Well, were off to a start here. Got six summary posts up now. Some were more difficult than others. It was interesting to go thru the history files over the weekend. I found stuff in places you would never think to look. Just take a look at some of the links associated with the topics covered.
To complete some of these summary posts required opening and reading 50-60 posts each and picking the best info to link back to. In many cases there is not just one best link. It takes several to get the whole picture.
I'll repeat, this would be a near impossible task for something on the order of the equipment forum. We here in binoculars are still relatively small. We have 1600 posts in 200 threads. But an interesrting note is we have 50,000 views. So what we do will be useful in the future.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Just to add a public notice of expression of heartfelt gratitude to you Ed for even daring to undertake such a monumental project.
I suspect quite a few readers do not quite understand fully what we are trying to achieve here.
I know I'm speaking for very many people when I say we are proud and privileged to have you amongst our ranks and to hope that you continue to keep up your excellent work.
Regards -- Kenny.
--------------------
Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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