John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
#4632384 - 06/10/11 03:43 PM
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Edit: Please read later post in the thread- Newtonian results are much different!
Does focus affect flats?
I have seen many posts stating that the focus point of flat images must not change from where the focus was for the lights. This never really made sense to me since all the imperfections that you are trying to remove occur in the telescope itself. Most of the dust that is visible is either on the filter, reducer or CCD window- none of which should be affected by changing the focus point of the telescope. Dust on the primary or secondary may be affected slightly by changing the focus of the telescope, but I wonder how much it would even effect that. So I decided to do an experiment.
Equipment: SBIG ST8300, Meade 10" LX50 SCT telescope, Homemade EL Flat Panel
Settings: Bin 2x2, 2 second exposures
Methodology:
21 exposures, dark subtracted and STD Dev 1.75 stack in Nebulosity for 3 imaging runs:
1) Base
2) Control
3) Out of Focus image.
The control was done with no changes to the focus.
For the out of focus image, I racked my SCT focuser all the way in- 27 rotations of the focus knob.
Then I applied the Control and Out of Focus stacks to the base as flats for comparison
Image1: Stacked Base
Image2: Stacked Control
Image3: Stacked Out of Focus
I left the level of stretch the same after applying the flats. This basically shows how much flatter an actual picture would be after applying the flats with both the control and the out of focus flat. Both did an excellent job of removing the dust donuts:
Image4: Base with control applied as flat
Image5: Base with Out of Focus applied as flat
As I was first stretching, I could not see any significant difference between the control and out of focus. However, as the stretch point became very extreme, a slight gradient began to emerge in the out of focus image. I suspect this is due to the primary mirror's significantly different position between the 2 sets of data and the internal reflections being slightly different. Dust donuts were not affected but this slight gradient clearly demonstrates that changing the focus will affect the data in the flats.
Image6: Base/Control and Base/Out of Focus combined in photoshop and extreme stretching applied to compare
Conclusion:
The level of stretching that I applied in order to identify a change between the control and out of focus images was much more than I would ever apply to actual data for an image. My conclusions for this SCT:
1) Dust donuts are not significantly affected by focus.
2) An out of focus flat is much better than doing no flat at all.
3) Focus will affect your flats, so try not to change focus between your imaging and your flats. But don't worry too much about it!
Edited by John Wunderlin (06/11/11 12:42 PM)
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malachykidd
sage
Reged: 04/12/10
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4632415 - 06/10/11 04:01 PM
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Thanks for the work on this, John-- it's a good thing to know.
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Rick J
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/01/08
Loc: Mantrap Lake, MN
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: malachykidd]
#4632531 - 06/10/11 05:29 PM
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I'd tried doing this just across my normal focus range, no where as extreme as what you did, and got the same result. I did it quick one day and wanted to redo it with exact measurements before posting anything.
I got exactly the same results as you did. The heck with worrying about focus. In your case the mirror moved, in mine I lock the mirror and used my 3.1" Crayford focuser which changes image scale yet apparently not donut scale.
I can and do apply a winter flat to a summer image in which the winter image scale is about 20 pixels larger than the summer yet the flats work perfectly. Yet another interesting result. Since my camera stays on the scope permanently I rarely see a new dust donut and use flats for a year unless something changes.
Newtonian and refractor may give different results. I don't know. Anyone care to try it?
Rick
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment. *DELETED*
[Re: Rick J]
#4632788 - 06/10/11 08:25 PM
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Post deleted by John Wunderlin
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4632851 - 06/10/11 09:27 PM
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Newtonian results:
I took my XT10 OTA into my observatory to test focus with this newtonian.
Here is my base image:
(The dark spot in the lower left I believe is frost. It's time for me to change the desiccant again- this spot disappeared when the camera was running for several minutes)
Base with control as flat:
Base with focus racked out all the way (for my newtonian, focus is racked nearly completely in)
The large dark circle may be a shadow from the secondary mirror, but I'm not sure.
Next I tried a stack with the focuser 1/8th turn from correct focus:
Still significant problem here.
Finally I did a test with a 1cm turn. This would be a typical temperature-based focus change for an imaging run:
Luckily this time there was only a hint of the circular artifact and I don't believe it would cause much of a problem.
Conclusion from this: This Newtonian scope's flats MUST match the lights focus.
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Rick J
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 03/01/08
Loc: Mantrap Lake, MN
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4632907 - 06/10/11 09:59 PM
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I suspected that might be the case. Now for refractors RC, Maks anyone?
Rick
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: Rick J]
#4632997 - 06/10/11 11:16 PM
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Refractor results:
I almost forgot I have a perfectly good ED80- I usually just use it for guiding 
Base image:
Control as flat:

Fully racked out:

One centimeter knob adjustment:

Conclusion:
My ED80 was closer to the SCT than the Newtonian. There is a slight change in vignetting between the images, but I would again say an out of focus flat with this scope would be better than no flat.
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bill w
Postmaster
   
Reged: 03/26/05
Loc: southern california
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4633713 - 06/11/11 11:28 AM
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thanks for the work john
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: bill w]
#4633853 - 06/11/11 12:30 PM
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You're welcome. I couldn't find anyone else who had posted test results like this and it was bugging me
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elbee
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/02/09
Loc: Arizona
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4633972 - 06/11/11 01:23 PM
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thanks for posting this, john. very informative.
there is a very brief post on the alnitakastro web site that is supportive of your conclusion. slightly different scenario but similar conclusion that focus is not critical.
http://alnitakastro.com/2011/01/focus-and-flats/
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John Wunderlin
Vendor - Spike-a Focusing Mask
   
Reged: 10/01/04
Loc: Mineral Point, Wi
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: elbee]
#4634253 - 06/11/11 04:27 PM
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So far I would say that focus is very important for Newtonians, somewhat important for refractors and not important for SCTs... At least with my scopes.
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Phil Sherman
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/07/10
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
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Re: Does focus affect flats? An experiment.
[Re: John Wunderlin]
#4634459 - 06/11/11 06:59 PM
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I'm not surprised at the poor flat for the Newtonian with the focuser racked all the way in. It's a well known observation that the the secondary mirror can create a "dark spot" (its shadow) with the focuser racked in. I'll have to try testing this with my focuser racked out all the way and see if the same thing happens.
Phil
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