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Anonymous
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What do you consider to be the largest binoculars that can be comfortably used without a tripod? That is, if you were to observe for half an hour or longer with handheld binocs, what size would you consider optimal (tradeoff between arm fatigue and image quality)?
More specifically, I'm wondering if a 12x50 would do well, or if I'm better off with a 10x42 or even an 8x42. I'm interested in the Nikon SE series (I think it's sold as the Superior series in the US) or the Pentax DCF SP, or something in that price range. I'll check them out at the shop before I actually whip out my credit card, but I'm still interested in your experience and opinion.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I use my 15x70mm's handheld 90% of the time compared to just 10% on a mount. It's quite comfortable for me, although I am sitting down. I think you should get the 12x50.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2551
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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I use Oberwerk 12X60s handheld 100% of the time. Feel quite comfortable doing that. Aslo fine with 16X50s. It helps to be sitting dowm if I am observing the zenith for extended period. I use my 20X80 LW(1.63 kg) occassionly without a tripod but prefer to mount them for astronomy. I'd feel comfortable using the 20X80 LWs without a tripod for long periods if I am sitting in a recliner with armrest.
Took the Oberwerk 12X60s on a cruise last summer. Felt fine using them on deck with my elbows supported. Just a bit awkward carrying them around because of their size. I am thinking about the Pentax DCF SP 12.5X50(0.88 kg) as my dual use astro/long range terrestrial bino.
I have read many very favorable reviews about the Nikon 12X50 SE, but I prefer waterproof roof prism binos with close focus for all around use. Hand holdability of binos varies greatly from person to person. Make sure you try different pairs for extended periods before you buy.
ERik D
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Hi Ken,
I think this is an issue where you're going to find a variety of answers, from 8X to 20X. the general rule is that anything over 10X should be mounted, some say 8X, however, rules are "general" and what you can handhold depends on the steadiness of your hands, the ability of your eyes/brain to compensate for shakes, and how well you can brace yourself (a second arm layer on a lounge chair works well).
I have used a Burgess 20X80 LW for close to a half hour before fatigue set in (actually the cold set in before the fatigue), but I was lying down flat on my back in a lounge chair. i had previously used a pentax 20X60 handheld, but those are lighter, smaller, and a lot less bulky.
My favorite for handheld binocular astronomy is the Nikon 12X50 Superior E. I found it no harder to hold than a 10X50, and the views are awesome. But again, it depends on your physiology and set up. if you are not going to brace yourself but rather observe while seated or standing, you will probably find the shakes distracting after awhile. however, lying down in a lounge chair even without double arms, you could probably handhold these fairly steady for almost an hour if you can also hold a 10X50 steady for the same time. the exceptional ergonomics and light weight of the 12X50 SE make them as easy to handhold as a 10X50. Only the nikon 10X35 E2 was easier, but that's almost 10 oz. lighter.
if it does prove to be too difficult to hold steady, a simple monopod or "T" stick will give you almost as much freedom without a lot of added extra weight of tripods and mounts. i don't think you will be disappointed in the 12X50 SE, it is the best medium power bin i've used (i've had three popular 10X50s, a 9.5X44 ED, and chinese 12X50 and 12X60s, and none could compare to the centerfield sharpness, edge performance, and overall image quality of the SE. it is truly a "superior" binocular.
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I've hand held my Pentax 12x50s for lawn chair viewing. Braced elbows helps a lot. Even with that you cannot see as much as mounted. I would think Eric's 12x60s would be easy enough to hold. I can't hold my 15x70s or 16x60s for anything more than a quick look. They work well for that, but not for handheld viewing. For me weight is not the issue, magnification gets too high.
With mounted binoculars you will have the ability to see objects 1 magnitude fainter or even more.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks for your replies. I'll go and see if any shop has the 12x50 to try out.
By the way, what's a "T stick"?
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Charlie Fisher
member
Reged: 06/28/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tampa, FL USA
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As the above replies suggest, the answer depends in part on exactly what you are trying to do. If the goal is extended viewing to see the faintest stars and objects possible in the field of view, versus quick identification, the answer will be very different. Lower magnification will be necessary in order to view comfortably for long periods with the binocular unmounted. Generally I am trying to find and identify less difficult objects, and if I just do that I am quite satisfied. Extended study requires a much steadier image, and that is a laudable observing goal, but one which is not usually mine.
Accordingly I am comfortable using my Fujinon 16X70 FMT-SX binocular lying flat on my back on a blanket, unmounted. But that may not be stable enough if your observing goals are different.
Best regards,
Charlie
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I like the idea of hand holding such a great pair of binoculars [Fujinon 16X70 FMT-SX ]. Does the extra weight help to keep the image steadier or is it more of a burdon? How steady is it for you if you're sitting in a chair?
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Ken,
a "T" stick, also known by other names, is simply a homemade monopod, with the "T" referring to its shape. i made mine from a long-handled brush. took the bristles out and was left with a slightly angled plastic platform. at first i just held the bins on the platform, but found they slipped so i bought a bino platform (piece of wood or metal with padding and Velcro straps to secure the binocular) and screwed that to the plastic broom platform. you can make your own bino platform, but i bought mine from T & T binocular mounts (the "T" in this case stands for the names of the owners). it's also helpful to have another platform at the bottom to anchor your feet on so it doesn't slip. Helix Manufacturing sells a reasonably priced plastic bino mount that tilts, and it can be mounted on a paint roller wtih a telescoping-handle.
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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There have been some very good answers to the original question already and I apologise if I am repeating what some other people have said.
There needs to be confirmation as to what my namesake really means by the word "biggest" -- does he mean in a physical sense or in the highest magnification ?
There also needs to be confirmation of TYPE of astro -viewing intended , as Charlie so astutely points out.
I also note from Ken K's photo that he is wearing glasses , which are presumably not simply a "fashion statement" so I suspect that maximum eye -relief will be a crucial factor in his decision making.
I also think that if "hand -holdability" is paramount , Image Stabilisation could well be a major advantage , particularly if the "type" of viewing calls for magnifications above 12x to be fully rewarding.
I've said many tims before that I cannot even get the best out of 10 x 50s without mounting them , so if I were to be dumped on a desert island without any possibility of making any kind of support , and could only have ONE pair of non -image stabilised binoculars with me with which to enjoy night -time sky -watching , I would probably settle for a Swarovski 8.5 x 42
If however I could hold them steady enough , even though I've never even seen them "in the flesh" I would be very tempted by a 12 x 50 SE ,providing of course eye-relief was sufficient to attain maximum field of view when wearing my glasses.
On the subject of Image Stabilised binoculars , I wondered has ANYONE ever actually tried the Fujinon / Nikon 14 x 40s?
Given the fine reputation of binoculars bearing these nameplates I am frankly a little surprised by the apparant non -existence of reviews of them.
Regards --Kenny.
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Kenny wrote: On the subject of Image Stabilised binoculars, I wondered has ANYONE ever actually tried the Fujinon / Nikon 14 x 40s?
And how about the Zeiss 20x60 BSGAT Classic Stabilized bins? for $4,500 they must be the bee's knees 
but back to reality, i know someone who uses a Canon 12X36 for astronomy, and likes them very much. sharp to the edge and very bright for 36mm, he says. priced a little over $400 at discounters. i'd probably still prefer the 12X50 SE.
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Charlie Fisher
member
Reged: 06/28/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tampa, FL USA
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Daniel, sitting in a chair gives a great deal more stability than standing. For objects anywhere near zenith, though, nothing works as well for me as lying flat on my back and letting most of the weight of the binocular rest on the bones below my eyes.
Charlie
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Yes Charlie,
I've done enough "resting on the bones" to know what you mean here.
The eye -relief has to be PERFECT though --and of course -it' a non -starter really when having to wear glasses.
Regards --Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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For me one I go over 10x 50mm they are too heavy to keep steady. I love my 15x80mm's but they are always on a mount. Good luck.
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