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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Cyclop_si]
      #4781806 - 09/01/11 09:00 AM

Quote:

Dammmnnn, I have to start saving...

Valery, how much does it weight this 8" f/6.5?




Exactly what I said when I saw the pic! Nice scope Valery, our purse strings will open if the price is right!


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jgraham
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/02/04

Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: t.r.]
      #4782602 - 09/01/11 03:40 PM

Cool looking tube. It's hard to see the lens from this view. Optical performance is a bit tough to judge as well, but it looks nice.

As far as patents, a provisional patent in the U.S. has to be filed within 12 months of the first public diclosure. If I recall right (my patents are getting old) you then have 12 months to complete the application for a full patent. Patience with legal-speak is a bonus. Until you have a liscensee lined up or can ramp up production I'd hold on to my day job. Just a suggestion.


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Stellarfire
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/10/11

Loc: Switzerland
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4782813 - 09/01/11 05:32 PM

I will be very interested to hear more of that apochromatic H-bomb. Hopefully good news. Good luck with this project.

Stephan


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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #4783464 - 09/01/11 11:31 PM

Thank you all for your congratulations, guys.

However, we didn't succeed on 100%! We were able to exceed the 0.95 energy concentration like Schott did it earlier (but for much smaller sizes). Before actual serial manufacturing, we really need to see how these remaining 5% of energy are distributed around the image when observing, for example, planets and brightest stars. If all will be OK with under the real sky tests, then we will announce this and start to take orders. If the remained 5% of light energy are (scattered light) will behave poorly, then we will need to take care about this. But how long this will take we don't know now.

I need to clarify what do I mean.

Imagine, for a minute, that our objective does concentrate all incoming enerly perfectly - perfect diffraction picture - Airy disk and surrounded diffraction rings of decreasing brightness. Airy disk in this perfect case has intensity of 1. If the optical system is not perfect, then Airy disk has lower than 1 intensity, say, 0.9 (or 0.95 as in our case). Remaning 0.1 (or 10%) of energy are redistributed around the Airy disk. These 10% of energy are mostly in diffraction rings closest to the Airy disk. This cause widening of a so called Point Spread Function (PSF) and decreasing of image contrast at middle and high spatial frequencies. In the case of planetary observing this mean lowering of details contrast and their detectability.

Let speak about two objectives - one is a standard apochromat and second is an apochromat with a DOE (diffraction optical element). First one has polychromatic (summarizes across visible spectrum) Strehl factor (relative Airy disk intensity) 0.85 and second one (with DOE) has polychromatic Strehl 0.92.
It is obviously, that second objective has less scattered energy and narrower PSF and should deliver sharper and more contrasty planetary images than first objective.
However... one important for amateur astronomers thing: we know well where these 0.15 of energy are distributed - in the closest (to Airy disk) diffraction rings. In the case of diffraction APO (APO-D) scattered 0.08 of enery are distributed absolutely differently - more or less uniformly around Airy disk and much far from it.
In other words in these two cases we see two different pictures:

1. Standard apochromat shows an Airy disk with relative (to ideal) brightness of 0.85, surrounded by diffraction rings of increased (in compare to ideal case) brightness.

2. APO-D shows an Airy disk with relative (to ideal) brightness of 0.92, surrounded by diffraction rings of almost normal (to ideal case) brightness and very wide circle of scattered light which consists 0.03 of energy.

Second one is better for resolution and planetary details detectability. First one is aesthetically more pleasant and more habitually looking.


We saw these both cases in the laboratory (on a very bright lamp string), but nobody seen real stars and planets in such a way.

Now we need to make a working sell for objective, finish the tube, install the objective in the tube and see how the objects on a real sky look through such a telescope - APO-D.


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4809499 - 09/15/11 03:30 PM

Bump...still waiting for first light report...

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AntarcticDave
sage


Reged: 02/03/09

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: t.r.]
      #4810714 - 09/16/11 10:22 AM

Me too Tim!

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Igor Nesterenko
newbie
*****

Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Lansing, MI
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4818681 - 09/20/11 05:26 PM

Quote:

August 29, 2011 at 16:00 local time (14:00 Greenvich)
An 8" F/6.5 apochromatic doubled objective, made of the very simplest glasses - F1 - K8 (F2 - BK7 Schott), has been successfully tested in the laboratory at the optical bench with 220mm F=2500 mirror collimator.

The doubled objective has a Diffraction Optical Element (DOE) at it's rear surface - a so called Freshnel lens.

Valery Deryuzhin.




Valery,

Your team received impressive results. Congratulations!

What you will say about temperature dependence chromatic aberrations of this lens with DOE?

You have tested the lens at room temperature 20C, but outside temperature may be below 20 degrees or more. The thermal expansion coefficient for example for K8 equal to 7*10E-6 1/K. At 20 deg. temperature delta the 200mm lens from K8 changes its size approx. 0.030mm. If the Fresnel lens etched on K8 lens then it will change of the diameter too. Herewith the focal length of DOE will change an accordingly with factor about 10 time more.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect a violation of the observable chromaticities compensation between the DOE element and the achromatic doublet when the telescope with this type lens will be put out from house.


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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Igor Nesterenko]
      #4818841 - 09/20/11 06:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

August 29, 2011 at 16:00 local time (14:00 Greenvich)
An 8" F/6.5 apochromatic doubled objective, made of the very simplest glasses - F1 - K8 (F2 - BK7 Schott), has been successfully tested in the laboratory at the optical bench with 220mm F=2500 mirror collimator.

The doubled objective has a Diffraction Optical Element (DOE) at it's rear surface - a so called Freshnel lens.

Valery Deryuzhin.




Valery,

Your team received impressive results. Congratulations!

What you will say about temperature dependence chromatic aberrations of this lens with DOE?

You have tested the lens at room temperature 20C, but outside temperature may be below 20 degrees or more. The thermal expansion coefficient for example for K8 equal to 7*10E-6 1/K. At 20 deg. temperature delta the 200mm lens from K8 changes its size approx. 0.030mm. If the Fresnel lens etched on K8 lens then it will change of the diameter too. Herewith the focal length of DOE will change an accordingly with factor about 10 time more.

Therefore, it is reasonable to expect a violation of the observable chromaticities compensation between the DOE element and the achromatic doublet when the telescope with this type lens will be put out from house.




We opened the windows and the temperature jumps 6C up.
No visible changes in color correction. Out of focus images have not changed in colors too. Just plain white.

Another factor. The DOE has been designed according to catalogue data for both glasses. Real glasses have focal length violation higher than you have mentioned, but the color correction remains perfect.


Valery.


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Igor Nesterenko
newbie
*****

Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Lansing, MI
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4819014 - 09/20/11 08:45 PM

Looks like that in your design, each lens with its own DOE chromatically compensated. It sounds promising and yet would like to know about the test results for large temperature changes.

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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Igor Nesterenko]
      #4906091 - 11/09/11 10:00 AM

Bump...Whats the latest Valery?

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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: t.r.]
      #4912751 - 11/12/11 08:26 PM

Quote:

Bump...Whats the latest Valery?




Making tube mechanics now. Laboratory tube is not for showing to public.


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Darenwh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/11/06

Loc: Covington, GA
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4915344 - 11/14/11 11:40 AM

Looking forward to hearing more about this. I may just have to consider another refractor in my future.

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AntarcticDave
sage


Reged: 02/03/09

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Darenwh]
      #4968340 - 12/15/11 04:54 PM

Merry Christmas Valery - I hope we'll see the new scope for sale in the new year!

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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: AntarcticDave]
      #4968918 - 12/15/11 11:52 PM

Thank you, Dave and MX-mas to you too!

We have finished the experimental stage with this DOE apochromats. Now we need to make somewhat improved version of DOE apochromat suitable for serial production.
One way or another, but an affordable large apochromats will appear on the market.

Valery.


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Cyclop_si
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Slovenia
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4969089 - 12/16/11 06:10 AM

Valery,
I am following this thread with interest as well, and I have two questions:

1. Do you have any weight estimates for 200mm version as well as for possible version in the 160-170mm range?

2. It might be that I do not understand whole concept about DOE correctly, but as far as I understand it, there are some "valleys" engraved into Freshnel lens. Is there any risk that dust/dirt come into this structure?

Regards,


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Cyclop_si]
      #4969221 - 12/16/11 09:02 AM

Any chance sending a production model to NEAF with Markus? I highly recommend it...if you want to win over the masses.

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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: Cyclop_si]
      #4976366 - 12/20/11 04:50 PM

Quote:

It might be that I do not understand whole concept about DOE correctly, but as far as I understand it, there are some "valleys" engraved into Freshnel lens. Is there any risk that dust/dirt come into this structure?

Regards,




No risk. The heigt of a typical valley is about 0.07 micron.


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ValeryD
Vendor (Aries)
*****

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Kherson, Ukraine.
Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: t.r.]
      #4976368 - 12/20/11 04:51 PM

Quote:

Any chance sending a production model to NEAF with Markus?




No chances. Sorry.


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OleCuss
member


Reged: 11/22/10

Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: ValeryD]
      #4991232 - 12/29/11 11:34 PM

Starting to drool. The wife has said no more telescopes, but for a good-sized DOEA refractor, I will risk her wrath!

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Bob S.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/14/05

Re: The apochromatic H-bomb has finally exploded! new [Re: OleCuss]
      #5018459 - 01/15/12 08:44 AM

Valery, I have read this thread with great interest. Good for you for coming up with a revolutionary design. You have the track record to pull this off. One of the things that concerns me with 200mm refractors is that they are generally quite heavy. I hope that you can solve the weight/tube flexure issues so that the scope is not only reasonable in price but is not too heavy or easily susceptible to tube flexure. If you can pull off theses parameters, I would be one of the people on your waiting list. Bob

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