Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
Ed,
Being as I struggle to come to terms with measurements such as "arcseconds" et al , I wondered how close to these miniscular measurements comes a top "E" first guitar string ,measuring precisely 0.3 millimetres, being "clearly resolved" through 10 x 50 binoculars from a distance of 100 metres in very unfavourable lighting ?
Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
Edited by EdZ (01/28/04 05:28 AM)
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
0.6 arcseconds. That would be near the equivalent of seeing the Cassini Division with those binoculars. What would be interesting is not that a 50mm lens has seen such a fine object. That falls within the realm defined for extended objects of line shape.
What would be interesting is the eyes of a human seeing it at 10 power. Such a feat has never to my knowledge been recorded in history, and certainly has never been reported in popular literature. An individual would require an acuity of 6 arcseconds. Some 10 times better than the eye is known to be capable of in bright light and ~15 times better than literature tells us the best astronomers have ever recorded.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (01/28/04 05:24 AM)
|
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
What intrigues me Ed , and I'm sure it's related to the "sliding scale" you refer to in an earlier post is this.
OK I can see a guitar string from 100 yards in 10x binos
I can also see the same guitar string from 10 yards with naked eye.
No problem so far.
BUT -- if I increase the gauge of wire SIXFOLD to 1.8mm
certainly CANNOT see it from 60 yards naked eye --and definitely not from 600 yards with 10x binos !
I think it must have something to do with contrast of the shining metal against a black background.
The Cassini -division syndrome perhaps ?
Let us know what you think
Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
Edited by EdZ (01/28/04 05:25 AM)
|
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
Just thought about another couple of examples of my apparant " super-human" vision.
I often enjoy cycling ( or walking --with binos of course!)along the Leeds to Liverpool Canal tow -path.
In certain places I see fishermen ( oddly never WOMEN ! ?)sitting with their lines waiting for a bite.
Now I'm no fisherman and I don't even eat fish ,but I know that gut used on fishing lines is usually even thinner than the thinnest guitar strings , because as kids we tried to make our own guitars and banjos using that stuff.
I can sometimes be as far as 20 yards away from the fishing line , but even then can sometimes see it forming it's curved shape from rod right into the water , catching the sunlight.
Also catching the rare sun rays that have been known to shine down in Lancashire I have seen spider's webs spanning the gap between wing mirror and door on my parked vehicle, which is 8 yards from the window I see them through.
Sometimes this can literally be just ONE thread of spider-web in the right place to catch the sun.
Now I have no micrometer or any other instrument with which to measure the cross-sectional width of a spider's web thread , and I appreciate that likely not all are exactly the same size, but I'm pretty sure an average thread would be considerably thinner than any guitar string or fishing gut ,and quite possibly by as much as a factor of 10x.
Does this mean I must be from another planet ?
Or should I simply book a further appointment pronto with my optician ?
Could this be why I think the Zeiss 7 x 42 is such a "powerful" binocular ?
I'm getting worried now !
Regards --Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
Edited by EdZ (01/28/04 05:27 AM)
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
No, you have just shined the light on the conditions that makes it possible for you to see the thin line.
What is actually happening in this situation , as you mentioned above, is that some light is reflecting off the shiny surface, both from the guitar string and the spider web. This actually makes this condition quite the opposite of the Cassini division condition, a black line across a white surface, where the black line similar to a power line reflects no light.
What happens when the thin line you've selected reflects light? Two very important conditions conspire to allow you to see this thin reflective wire.
First; It becomes similar to a long line of point sources. The light from a point source can be seen even if it has imperceptible width. If you were to attempt to measure the width of the stars, you would find it an impossible task since there is not an Earth bound telescope capable of making the measurment. Possibly Betelguese and Antares being the exceptions.
Second; A lens is not capable of showing any object smaller than it's limit of resolution. What it will do is make anything smaller than the Airy disk appear as the same size as the Airy disk. Your 50mm lens has a 2.75 arcsec radius for an Airy disk. Your lens has actually fattened up the image of the line to a diameter of 5.5 arcseconds. How has it done this? Because it is not capable of producing an image in the focal plane smaller than that 5.5 arcsec in diameter. There is no disputing this. This can be measured.
Since the object has reflected some light, the lens can see it as if it were similar to a point source, however extended in a linear manner making it even easier to see. And what you are seeing in a 50mm binocular is a fattened image of a thin line, produced by the physics of the optics to the smallest possible image the lens can show, the Airy disk. The image you see in the binocular is actually 5.5 arcseconds in angular measure, because the lens is incapable of forming any image smaller than that.
Had you used an optical system with a micrometer eyepiece, you would have been able to measure the image of your line as seen thru the eyepiece. It would have measured 5.5 arcsec and you would never have known you were looking at a wire ten times thinner than the image in your focal plane.
Addressing the physiology of the eye as detector, there is a reason you can see the wire, even though you cannot resolve it. Had you placed a 0.3mm speckle at those distances, it would be hopelessly lost. You would not see it. But you have used a thin line, one that has reflected some light. The linear condition allows an infinite number of speckles to cross over the expanse within the detectors of the eye where a single element of the same with would fall on empty space. For an object to be detected it must cross more than one detector in the eye. Your line has met that condition a hundred fold and more. So you can see it, not because you have superhuman vision, but because it is a line of an infinite number of visible points.
Moreso than anything, the reflected light allows you to see the thin wire as something other than what it truely is. This can be refered to as detection, not resolving. In this sense, your example is similar to all those observers that see the Cassini division with telescopes too small to physically resolve the width of the division. There is no doubting they can detect the Cassini division, however they have not resolved it. Their optics have made it appear fatter than it truely is, due to no fault of their own.
This discussion should belong to the thread resolution in binoculars. I cannot paste it into that thread, but I can cut it and make it its own thread.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
Ed ,
Thanks for that technically superb explanation.
I somehow doubt many other "regulars" to this binocualar forum would have been capable of providing such a reply , but I could be wrong ( again ) --even about THAT :-)
Certainly a very interesting subject.
Even just the terms "Resolution" and "Resolved" would seem to allow a certain amount of subjectivity within the somewhat indefinite nature of their respective definitions and how different people choose to interpret them.
For example Person A might declare an object "resolved" whilst Person B may consider the same image only "partly resolved".
Similarly I would imagine that the terms "glimpsed" and "suspected" could quite possibly be debated over until the cows come home !
For better or worse ,I prefer to try to keep the matter as simple as:
1. I can SEE something so as to make out clearly what it is ( my interpretation of RESOLUTION )
or
2. I can see SOMETHING , but I'm not sure what it is( my interpretation of "suspected but not resolved".
I have not read a great amount about the specific subject of "resolution" , partly , as is the situation with"exit-pupil" ,because I have not managed to really find that much that has been written on the subject.
But I still think that there could be some sort of "missing link" or "as yet fully understood ,investigated or explained" to this whole aspect of optics and the human eye.
In the terrestrial field ,we all know that mirage and the rest of it really does cause horrendous problems with longer distance magnification ,seeming to increase in direct proportion to the higher levels of magnification.
Yet even in the most favourable conditions imagineable , even if we were in a place or on a planet with no atmosphere whatsoever or any other "optical obstacles" to contend with , I still have a hunch that some breakdown of quality occurs in a magnified image the further away from a viewed object that one is.
I notice this even on the clearest day when looking through my Zeiss 7 x 42s at a printed card 12 feet away , then immediately afterwards at an identical printed card 24 feet away.
Not only does the latter appear exactly HALF the size of the former , but there is , to my eyes , a slightly discernible inferiority in the image of the latter , in terms of sharpness , brightness and contrast.
When this is extended to a viewed object a mile away , such as a farmhouse , brilliant as the Zeiss are at giving the impression that one has simply move seven times closer to the farmhouse ( and I have never used any binoculars as good in this respect )when I actually DO walk to a distance seven times closer , I still consider that I can see things ever so slightly more detailed than I did through the binoculars from a mile away , and I do not think this is all down to the effects of air currents , heat haze , mirage or call it what you will.
Then again -- I could be mistaken ( yet again :-) )
Regards Ed , and thanks again for your much appreciated time and efforts.
Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12566
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
|
|
Kenny,
Although I too would have no technical explanation for it, I would tend to agree with you in respect to image quality decreases with distance WHEN not in optimum light. So it would seem to me LIGHT is the key factor.
Of course this would not come into play when veiwing average bright stars, but does very much come into play when viewing very faint stars. Did you know these limits of resolution we calculate for our lenses, while averages are based on average stars, are both more difficult for very bright stars and very faint stars. Stars of 9th magnitude must be separated by 50% more space than stars of 5th-6th magnitude in order to be seen.
What this shows is less light has a dramatic affect on resolution and this may be one of the things you see in your terrestrial viewing that is so hard to put a finger on.
From a close (Earthbound) object reflected light seen varies acording to distance. As you move further away from the object, the amount of light reaching your eyes is much less, very much different than a star. From a star, light is constant. But, we can use the example of a 9th mag star vs a 5th mag star to represent the same type of problem. Less light results in lower resolution. In terrestrial viewing, greater distance equates to less light, therefore lower resolution.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
|
KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10143
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
Gotcha !
Cheers Ed.
I think I'll take a night away from this PC for a change !
If I spend any more time on here , my eyes are going to be too bad to see ANYTHING soon !
Regards -- Kenny.
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
wilash
Fairy Godmother
   
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
|
|
Kenny,
Resolution and contrast are related. The lower the contrast of the target, the lower the resolution of the optical system. Brighter stars are easier to resolve. Shiney wires are the same. Most resolution tests are done with high-contrast targets not only because they are easier, but also they give better numbers.
Most resolution equations are simply models with very specific conditions. They allow you to explore relationships, but are usually too simplistic to give concrete answers for all situations or real-world optical systems. Unless, of course, you make the models more complex to allow other varibles. Then when you discuss visual systems, it gets even messier because of its subjective nature.
|
|
7 registered and 17 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: EdZ
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 845
|
|
|
|
|
|
|