SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
#4823909 - 09/23/11 03:27 PM Attachment (63 downloads)
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I'm trying to decide which binoviewer would I be happiest with in a somewhat light polluted sky and a Celestron C-14 and C-8. I have a lot of older eyepieces that are real good - full set of Brandons & 13mm Nagler T1 plus some older 2" eyepieces that won't fit and the Siebert 2" Black Knight is way out of my budget...
First choice would be the Denkmeier Denk II Super System binoviewer with 2" OCS including Power Switch and 24mm Televue Panoptics. Since I don't have any of the stuff I'd be looking at around $1,800.
Second choice would be the Williams Optics binoviewer that includes the two 20mm eyepieces. I do have a Lumicon Giant EZ Guider that possibly would allow me lower the focal length so the 20mm eyepieces would give me a wider field of view. Or would getting a matched set of longer focal length eyepieces work well in the WO binoviewer? The price is a whole lot less than the Denk and really skews my choice in favor of this, especially if I could use a slightly lower power eyepiece (like 24mm) since the C-14 has such a long focal length.
My other choice could be something similar to my first two choices like a Televue Binoviewer...
I've been lurking here for some time and decided to join so I could post and here's my first post. I've been reading threads in this section for the last year or so and it appears that almost all binoviewers are better than monoviewing.
I've had telescopes since 1963 - Swift 3' refractor sold to get a Questar that was stolen then a Celestron C-8 and then a C-90 to be a guiding scope on the C-8 and then the Celestron C-14 in 1980. The C-14 is permanently mounted in my homebuilt roll back roof observatory in my backyard. The C-8 gets to go on short trips to up on my deck or in my Ram pickup to darker sky locations. My part of Ohio is well over 100 miles away from any real dark sky locations.
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Arizona-Ken
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/31/08
Loc: Scottsdale, Arizona
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4823967 - 09/23/11 04:22 PM
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Welcome to Cloudy Nights!
I have an EarthWin binoviewer that I use extensively with my CPC1100 and love it. EarthWin is a "cousin" of the Denks and provide great views. It has a power/filter slide that lets me use the power slide as a reducer/barlow and a filter slide that lets me slide two filters in and out of the optical chain. Great for DSO work.
I think that the EarthWins are a little less expensive than the Denks for similar performance.
An OCS is not needed for a Cat, but are useful for refractors.
Any of the better units will serve you well, but stay with EarthWins, Denks, or the Televues. The Williams Optics, in my opinion, are not as good, and with a C14, you want to have your optical chain as good as you can afford.
Arizona Ken
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Doug Culbertson
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Arizona-Ken]
#4823992 - 09/23/11 04:41 PM
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I have owned Denks, TeleVue Binovue, and now a WO. I find the WO to be of excellent quality, as are the two eyepieces that come with it. While there may be some compelling arguments in favor of the higher priced binos, optical quality is definitely not one of them. It does not degrade the images in my Zambuto mirror, so I doubt that it would degrade the image in my NS11GPS, though I have not yet had a chance to use it in that particular telescope.
IMO, the only thing against the WO is that the clear aperture is smaller than the higher priced units, so you are pretty much locked into the 20mm WFs that come with it, or possibly a pair of 25mm Plossls. Since they would both have a similar tfov, there is no real benefit gained from going to the longer focal length eyepieces. Since I am operating at f/4.3 in the dob, that's not really an issue for me, nor is it a problem in my f/9 refractor. It might be a different story for an f/11 C14 though.
I would suggest that you start with the WO to see if you take to binoviewing. Believe it or not, it's not for everyone, and I know people who cannot merge images no matter how expensive the binoviewer. At worst, you off it for a slight loss and buy a more expensive unit. At best, you end up like I did; happy enough with the WO to keep it
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Mike B
Starstruck
   
Reged: 04/06/05
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Arizona-Ken]
#4824048 - 09/23/11 05:22 PM
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Hi Ken- welcome to CN! Sure is a gorgeous classic orange-tuber ya got there! Very nice.
BVers & SCTs seem to go well together, as they reach focus handily, and can typically manage with focal-reducers to boot, plus have the benefit of moving the viewing position very little as one pans around. When i BVed my 10" SCT, my observing chair would typically remain in ONE SPOT for long stretches of time!
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The Williams Optics, in my opinion, are not as good, and with a C14, you want to have your optical chain as good as you can afford.
The optical quality issue is a difficult one to nail down... i rank it with the custom mirror vs. stock asian mirror for one's Dob. Sometimes there's not a huge diff, as many asian-made mirrors appear to be quite good, lately. And then some not. It's just that going "premium" may get you a bit better, and get it more consistently.
Different folks seem to report different takes, so this whole aspect may have subjective differences that loom as large as the actual optical ones?
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IMO, the only thing against the WO is that the clear aperture is smaller than the higher priced units, so you are pretty much locked into the 20mm WFs that come with it, or possibly a pair of 25mm Plossls.
One thing you'll find with an SCT's use of a BVer is that, due to a diagonal's added optical travel, plus that of the BVer, your "F11" CAT will actually be galloping along at a leggy F14 or so! Some of that you *may* be able to buy back with a focal-reducer... but there's just no way to sell such a set-up as a "widefield" arrangement! Smaller prism'd BVers (like the WO inits) further complicate this aspect.
That right there may be the critical selling point for a "premium" BVer- prism size. Add to this the ready-on-the-fly lens systems of the Earthwin & Denkmeier makes, as well as their filter-switch systems, and you have a VERY compelling package! I use both the 'Power-X-switch' and 'Filter-X-Switch' on my Denk+Dob rig, and cannot hoot loudly enough in its praise! Observing is just plain FUN with this hardware onboard! 
To start with even a *used* set of the WO type, and see where it leads, is probably really good advice.
Have fun with it, any which way ya go! mike b
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Mike B]
#4824307 - 09/23/11 09:20 PM
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I have the equivalent of the WO (that is, the Orion version, which is optically identical). I can attest to its working very well in an SCT, and to the fact the FOV is definitely limited, even with my f/4.9 Portaball due to the fact that I have to use the supplied 2X OCS, plus extenders, to get it to come to focus. If you want widefield viewing, you don't want this binoviewer. But if you want two-eyed high magnification viewing, and have tracking, the WO/Orion binoviewer is a great deal.
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mikey cee
Postmaster
   
Reged: 01/18/07
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Joad]
#4824479 - 09/23/11 11:31 PM
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I have used my WO's for nearly two years. Does very well at 400x-700x in my 8" refractor. I see no reason to trade up. I'm good. Mike
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Twilight
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/03/10
Loc: Englewood Tennessee
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: mikey cee]
#4824585 - 09/24/11 01:38 AM
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Ken I can't speak for anything but the Denk II Super system. They work great in my SCT and my Refractor as well as they did in the Dob I had. The power switch and filter switch options are fantastic and provide wonderfull views with the pan 24mm. As for the Earthwin I am sure if you check that they are the same as the Denk Standard. For me I would not take anything for my Super System and power and filter switches. Hope you enjoy what ever you decide on!
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Jim Rosenstock
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/14/05
Loc: MD, south of the DC Nebula
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Doug Culbertson]
#4826520 - 09/25/11 09:45 AM
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II would suggest that you start with the WO to see if you take to binoviewing. Believe it or not, it's not for everyone, and I know people who cannot merge images no matter how expensive the binoviewer. At worst, you off it for a slight loss and buy a more expensive unit. At best, you end up like I did; happy enough with the WO to keep it
Wise advice.
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Twilight]
#4828417 - 09/26/11 11:20 AM Attachment (49 downloads)
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The other morning around 2 AM it was mostly clear, then by 3 AM had become partly cloudy, and by 4 AM mostly cloudy and time for bed again.
The amount of detail I can see in the C-14 never ceases to amaze me. Jupiter had the Red Spot past the meridian and lots of details like smaller spots and festoons were fairly easily visible. The 4 big moons all showed distinctive disks and differences in colors, brightness, and size. Very often I can use the 13mm Nagler T1 (301X) and not have the image break down where I live. My favorite eyepiece has been my University Optics 2" 32mm Koenig (122X) for some time, but now I'm using the Televue 2" 40mm Widefield (98X) more often. They both have similar apparent field of view, around 65 degrees.
I also tried my Celestron 2" 50mm Plossl (78X) and found the field of view huge, close to the actual field of view with the TV 40mm Widefield, but the 50 degree field of view with the Celestron looked like I was looking out of a pipe...with the TV 40 WF and the UO 32 K it looks almost like a space walk and I have to look around to see everything. The TV 13 N T1, for me, would have too big of an apparent field of view for a binoviewer, but it's great for monoviewing.
I also discovered that I wouldn't mind changing eyepieces a lot.
I then tried the same eyepieces with my Celestron 2" 2X Barlow. The 602X of the TV 13 N T1 gave me a huge blurry image of Jupiter. The 244X of the UO 32 K and the 196X of the TV 40 WF looked spectaular. The 156X of the C 50 P looked spectacular, but the eye relief was borderline too high.
So, I'll need a matched set of 1 1/4" eyepieces with around a 65 degree field of view and a field stop not much bigger than 20mm for the Williams Optical Binoviewer (or similar type) or a field stop not much bigger than 26mm for the Denks Super System II's or EarthWins (or similar).
Seeing how long the C-14's focal length is I'm leaning towards the Denks or EarthWins and 24mm TV Panoptics. The C-8 would be very happy with the Williams Optics BV and their 20mm eyepieces, but I'd probably like to use lower powers at times on the C-14 as well.
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teskridg
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/15/08
Loc: PA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4828455 - 09/26/11 11:41 AM
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You can get the WO's and the Earthwin power x switch with mono eyepiece 1-1/4" adapter and bypass the more expensive Denkmeier/Earthwin binoviewer for the time being. My experience with the 24mm Panoptics and the p x s in the reduced mode with a C8 and C11 is that there is some noticeable vignetting in the periphery; while I don't find this particularly annoying, it is present with these eyepieces as well as with 32mm Plossls. No vignetting is present in the reduced mode with Earthwin bino's and 19mm Panoptics, which do fit the double cluster largely within the field of view in this configuration. I do not believe 24mm Panoptics will work without vignetting in reduced mode with the smaller clear aperture WO binoviewers, and I have my doubts about the 24mm Panoptics in native, non-reduced or Barlowed mode as the clear aperture of 20mm may be pushed a little by the size of the field stop in these eyepieces. However, if you go with the WO's, a pair of 30mm Vixen NPL Plossls works fine without vignetting in my experience. Tim
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: teskridg]
#4837227 - 10/01/11 09:24 AM
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It seems everytime I've made up my mind a new expense pops up which would seem to indicate going with something like the WO bino with the 2 included eyepieces. This would be perfect in my C-8, around 100X. It would probably be pretty good in my C-14, around 200X. Both the C-8 and C-14 have excellent optics and the eyepieces I normally use with them have excellent optics, too.
Question #1 - How good are the optics in the power switch with a long focus SCT?
Question #2 - I notice Harry Siebert ( http://www.siebertoptics.bizland.com/SiebertOptics-blacknightbinoviewers.html )has larger clear aperture 1.25" binoviewers (New Black Night 25mm Super FMC Binoviewer) and also the 2" Siebert Black Knight Binoviewer Elite 40 ( http://www.siebertoptics.bizland.com/SiebertOptics-2inchbinoviewers.html ). In the course of checkimg as many reviews as possible many people really like Mr. Siebert's products but some have found the workmanship to be poor to very poor. What's the general consensus on getting a high quality product from Mr. Siebert?
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4841703 - 10/03/11 04:10 PM
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Well...the state of the economy...unexpected expenses...etc. I ordered the WO Binoviewer today instead of one much more expensive (probably close to $2,000 when 2 premium eyepieces are taken into consideration). I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with it. I wanted to order it from the owner of this site (astronomics) but they don't carry WO Binoviewers so I had to order it elsewhere. I'll report on my impressions of it when it gets here.
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Danno2006
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/25/06
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4851122 - 10/08/11 08:08 PM
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I have a C14. I owned the Denk II with D21MM eyepieces and own a Siebert BN. I sold the Denk II to a chap in Ireland. It just did not give me a better image than the Siebert. The Denk was much heavier as well. I use Sterling 25mm plossls, 19mm Panoptics and 16mm Naglers for binoviewing. The Naglers are best for Moon as the magnification can be a little much for my skies. The added light path of the bino adds focal length to the C14.
PS My observing partner could not merge the Denk IIs while the Sieberts merged fine for him. The 25mm Plossl vignetted in the Denk as well. Probably due to the Power Switch.
Edited by Danno2006 (10/08/11 08:13 PM)
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Danno2006]
#4854008 - 10/10/11 01:52 PM Attachment (40 downloads)
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On Friday my WO Binoviewer was delivered. My impressions of everything physical about the WO Binoviewer including the box it came in were first rate. I first tried it out in my C-8 a few minutes after sunset in a very clear sky. The moon was just rising and not being blocked by any trees where my C-8 was. I was blown away by the view = I could see details far easier with 2 eyes than 1 eye. I thought the eyepieces weren't perfectly aligned, but I had no trouble merging the 2 images into 1 great image. The field stop of the WO eyepieces looked fuzzy to me until I realized I had to move my eyes in order to see the sharply defined field stops. For me, the eyepieces in the binoviewer were showing me more than I could easily see just looking straight ahead and a little to the sides. The quality of the eyepieces were very pleasantly surprising, too. Craters on the terminator still looked quite sharp when I put them near the outer edge. Then I was called to supper. I knew it would be a hour or so until the moon would come out of eclipse by my neighbor's big tree where my C-14 was waiting in the observatory.
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4854013 - 10/10/11 01:56 PM Attachment (41 downloads)
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I had to take a photo of the C-8 pointed at the moon before I went downstairs to supper. I was getting giddy thinking about how much better binoviewing is than monoviewing during supper (or was it dinner?).
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Doug Culbertson
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4854039 - 10/10/11 02:14 PM
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Glad you like them. I am impressed everytime I place my WO binoviewer in the focuser.
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4854138 - 10/10/11 03:07 PM Attachment (35 downloads)
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Dinner (or supper) was yummy and I was out in the observatory before 8 PM. Guess what? The moon was still being blocked by the big tree so I had to look through the branches and leaves to see it. What a sight! I would try the binoviewer on objects not blocked by trees and check out the moon later.
The colors in double stars were much richer because splitting the light into 2 halves brought the light levels down enough to see the colors rather than a bright light that had some color in it. The C-14 gathers enough light that brighter objects become very bright and bright objects become very, very, very bright. Even with the brightness being cut in half for each eyepiece open star clusters looked a whole lot more detailed.
Cupping my hands around my eyes made the viewing more pleasurable. I also decided an eyepiece with less eye relief would help, too. Earlier this year I had a bad cataract removed and later the same month I had a developing cataract removed from the other eye. I've had to wear glasses for 55 years until then. The eye relief of the W.O. eyepieces would be perfect for someone with glasses. It's not bad for someone without glasses, too.
Finally the moon came out fron behind the tree and I was seeing details I had never seen before. The almost full moon not being so bright helped out a lot and seeing it with both eyes helped out even more.
Later Jupiter was visible without the big tree in the way. Again, using both eyes and having the image not so bright meant a lot more detail could be seen.
Then it was off to bed and a little sleep until I got up at 4 AM to see Jupiter high in the sky and Orion high enough in the sky that no big tree would be in the way.
Seeing at 200+X in the C-14 with the binoviewer is different than the 100+X I was getting with the C-8. There was more detail easily seen, but not nearly as much as when the seeing is really good. When the seeing is really good the C-14 easily shows the disks of Jupiter's 4 big moons and some detail on them as well. This was the first time I wished I could have a lower power on the binoviewer.
The Orion Nebula looked spectacular with one eye and easily more than twice as spectacular using both eyes. The E star of the trapezium was easily seen, but the F star was only caught in fleeting glimpses due to atmospheric seeing non perfection at the time.
I wanted to see a wider view so I put on my Lumicon Giant EZ guider on the C-14 with a 2" star diagonal and the WO Binoviewer. Rats! The focus for infinity was just barely out of reach and it was so close, too. I took off the star diagonal and put the W.O. Binoviewer in the back of the giant EZ Guider and it reached focus! It was the most spectacular view I've ever had of the Orion Nebula! My neck started to hurt while I had to bend myself lower to be able to look through the straight through binoviewer set up.
The next night I took a 24mm Brandon and a 25mm Celestron eyepiece and put them in the binoviewer. I could actually merge the 2 images into 1 image. 24mm Panoptics (or something similar) would give about the same spectacular view and magnification with the giant EZ Guider and a straight through optical path if the WO binoviewers had a larger clear aperture.
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4854149 - 10/10/11 03:16 PM Attachment (31 downloads)
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I was thinking about having this done -
http://www.siebertoptics.bizland.com/SiebertOptics-Binoviewer%20Upgrade.html
Opinions, anyone?
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Doug Culbertson
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/06/05
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: SUN RA KAT]
#4854183 - 10/10/11 03:37 PM
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Funny you mentioned that, as I just emailed Harry with a couple of questions about his supercharging service. FWIW, while I haven't had this service performed yet, I have dealt with Harry in the past and found him to provide great service. His own Black Knight binos get pretty good reviews, so I would imagine that his upgrade to the WO binos would be worth the money.
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SUN RA KAT
super member
Reged: 09/10/11
Loc: Centerville, Ohio USA
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Re: What Binoviewer Would Be "Best" In A C-14 ?
[Re: Doug Culbertson]
#5005545 - 01/07/12 12:30 PM
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This morning shortly after the moon set and before the clouds came in just before the Southeastern sky started to become brighter due dawn approaching I observed Saturn and Mars with my WO binoviewer on my C-14. I was using my Explore Scientific 68* 24mm eyepieces. Simply put, it was the best view I ever have had of both planets. I also tried my ES 68* 20mm eyepieces, but the view was slightly better using the 24mm's.
I also tried other eyepieces in the WO binoviewer just using one eye - TV 13mm Nagler T1, Brandon 8, 12, 16, & 24mm eyepieces, and my ES 68* 24mm & 20mm eyepices. I had great views with all eyepieces in cyclpos mode through the WO binoviewer and the ES 68* 24mm gave a slightly better view than the rest.
Earlier in the evening I tried having an ES 20mm in one side and the ES 24mm in the other...I had no problem in merging the images of Jupiter even though Jupiter was easy to see as bigger through the 20mm eyepiece over the 24mm eyepiece when viewed singly. The binoview of the 2 mismatched eyepieces took on the larger Jupiter of the 20mm with the slightly smaller image from the 24mm giving it a weird 3D effect. The view is much better with matched eyepieces, but this was an experiment just to see what I would see.
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