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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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mclewis1
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Raginar]
      #4945910 - 12/02/11 11:28 AM

Unless Chris has coded some Mallincam specific capabilities into the new s/w it won't do much with a Mallincam long integration wise. High end Mallincam's have up to 128x Sense which means a maximum of 2.1s of integration (with NTSC cameras) without any "extensions".

Control wise Mallincam's are very similar to other video cameras on the market but they also have some very unique extensions. One of these is the Hyper or long exposure/integration circuitry. On the MC Hyper plus camera the Hyper capabilities are enabled through the switches on the side of the camera and not through any external handset or PC to camera communication. With the VSS+ the "Hyper" capabilities are controlled on camera via a pot and for a PC connection via some extended capabilities in the camera to PC communications. On the Xtreme this is done via a 2nd unique on camera connection (for the wireless hand controller) or for the PC connection via that same extended PC connectivity.

So unless Chris is taking specific advantage of those Mallincam extensions with a VSS+ or Xtreme I believe the s/w will be limited to 2.1s integrations. With a Hyper Plus Mallincam there's no way I know for any type of external (off camera) control over the Hyper circuitry so it's a maximum of 2.1s there too.

All of this assumes that Chris also hasn't found a way to extend a basic camera's Sense capabilities (taking the 512x Samsungs' from 8 to 16 second integration for example). If he has found a way to do this and it can be applied to other similar cameras then perhaps some of the high end Mallincams could be coaxed into 4.2s integration times with his software ... but I really can't see the s/w being capable of any more than that with the high end Mallincams (the MC Jr. is already a 256x - 4.2s camera).

Another question about using Chris's s/w with a Mallincam is if you pre set a Hyper exposure time (say 14s for example on a Hyper Plus) can his s/w still control the starting and stopping of the integration? If so then there could be some very interesting uses for his s/w with a Mallincam.


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Michael Rapp
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: mclewis1]
      #4946076 - 12/02/11 01:24 PM

I think some things are getting confused. While this software has the capability to control a GStar camera similar to the way MControl can control an MCX, the usefulness of this program for Samsungs and Mallincams is in its capability to modify the image stream after it has been digitized by the capture device.

In other words, the program replaces AMCap. Whereas AMCap is limited to linear adjustments in brightness and contrast, this software adds stacking (I'm unclear how many iterations it stacks at the moment) to reduce noise and some gamma curves. And it has the histogram display to guide you in these adjustments.

Unless I have missed something entirely, for Mallincam and Samsung users, the software has nothing to do with controlling the camera's settings.


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barbarosa
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Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Michael Rapp]
      #4946170 - 12/02/11 02:21 PM

I think you nailed it Michael. When I saw this thread, I wondered how the application could communicate with the Samsung. It cannot.

I was just experimenting with some of the "Deep Sky" settings.

"Select integration rate as set in camera" has a max value of 256x. That sets the "Integration output rate" at 5.12 seconds. An AVI captured with that setting creates a new frame every 5.12 seconds. The capture file is smaller for a given capture time than at faster integration rates.

The "Integration output rate" text box accepts user entered changes.

If you increase the value, something odd happens. Set at 10 seconds a 30-second capture creates a 1.8MB AVI file. Registax sees only two frames in the file.

I do not have even a speculation as to why this is so.


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ccs_hello
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: scout72]
      #4946950 - 12/02/11 10:11 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

Quote:

Yes- a USB video capture device is how most folks go about getting the video feed displayed on computer screen. I use a Pinnacle Dazzle device- you don't need the fancy one- the $49 one works great. There is also a device called an Easy Cap available on Amazon for around $10 that works okay- but it is kinda flimsy.




I am using an EMPIA 2861 device. The common name is EasyCap DC60+
Exact device (not DC60, not other names) will ensure it's an EMPIA device. It can do YUY2 @ 720*480 resolution. Amazon has it for $18 shipped.

Note since its not using compression such as MPEG2 on the capture dongle side, USB2.0 high-speed transfer is needed and must support isochronous transfer mode.
The PC has to be reasonably fast too.


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ccs_hello
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #4947115 - 12/03/11 01:20 AM Attachment (33 downloads)

Found out what the GStar-EX Capture program is doing in LiveView Stacking mode. Press "Session" button, the following screen will show.
If you use SDC-435 NTSC at 512x integration (which is 8.54 sec). Fill in the "Integration output rate" field with the value 8.54. This will tell the program to capture a video frame every 8.54 second. <-- please note the videocam output refresh is not synchronized with this program's capture timing.

P.S. if your videocam is updated every 2.13 second, then set the value according to that value.

In "CSD Enhance" block, press "Apply smoothing" to enable stacking. This will be 2x stacking. No sliding window stacking nor more than 2x possible. You will notice the LiveView screen gets updated every 17 sec (8.54 x 2).

Other image enhancement is the picture gamma.
"Intensity OFF" just uses the normal gamma.
"Intensity ON" applies different gamma correction to stretch the histogram. There are 7 setting: 1-7 and 7 is the strongest.


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Dragon Man
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: mclewis1]
      #4947307 - 12/03/11 06:37 AM

Quote:

Unless Chris has coded some Mallincam specific capabilities into the new s/w it won't do much with a Mallincam long integration wise. High end Mallincam's have up to 128x Sense which means a maximum of 2.1s of integration (with NTSC cameras) without any "extensions".

Control wise Mallincam's are very similar to other video cameras on the market but they also have some very unique extensions. One of these is the Hyper or long exposure/integration circuitry. On the MC Hyper plus camera the Hyper capabilities are enabled through the switches on the side of the camera and not through any external handset or PC to camera communication. With the VSS+ the "Hyper" capabilities are controlled on camera via a pot and for a PC connection via some extended capabilities in the camera to PC communications. On the Xtreme this is done via a 2nd unique on camera connection (for the wireless hand controller) or for the PC connection via that same extended PC connectivity.

So unless Chris is taking specific advantage of those Mallincam extensions with a VSS+ or Xtreme I believe the s/w will be limited to 2.1s integrations. With a Hyper Plus Mallincam there's no way I know for any type of external (off camera) control over the Hyper circuitry so it's a maximum of 2.1s there too.

All of this assumes that Chris also hasn't found a way to extend a basic camera's Sense capabilities (taking the 512x Samsungs' from 8 to 16 second integration for example). If he has found a way to do this and it can be applied to other similar cameras then perhaps some of the high end Mallincams could be coaxed into 4.2s integration times with his software ... but I really can't see the s/w being capable of any more than that with the high end Mallincams (the MC Jr. is already a 256x - 4.2s camera).

Another question about using Chris's s/w with a Mallincam is if you pre set a Hyper exposure time (say 14s for example on a Hyper Plus) can his s/w still control the starting and stopping of the integration? If so then there could be some very interesting uses for his s/w with a Mallincam.




Mark, the s/w has nothing to do with Mallincam cameras.
Chris did not write it for Mallincam use, and until he saw my Mallincam he had never even seen one before.
He writes his Program for Steve Massey the Gstar-Ex dealer, and anyone that uses a Mintron Based camera.
You can control a camera with it but it must be a Gstar or a Mintron.
No, it won't control a Sammy or Mallincam.
ccs_hello is correct in that it takes the incoming video stream and enhances it. It becomes more easily manipulated than using Amcap, and due to it's stacking on the fly of 2 lots of 512x integrations it theoretically gives 1024x (16 seconds). And smoothing decreases the effect of noise and allows graduated Gamma control.

To increase the cameras ability to do longer sens-up, someone would need to make new circuitry inside the camera, or find a way to change the Firmware.
The software isn't an answer to longer sensup times.
It is an answer to the request to be able to get longer integration results (by doubling what the hardware can do by stacking on the fly).
The results I received during the tests were successful.
Do a video run at normal 512x, then turn on the doubling features and see the difference.
It's all we have until someone works out a Hardware hack for the Sammy's.


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bhuvfe
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Reged: 01/14/11

Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #4947440 - 12/03/11 08:45 AM

Chris and Ken, thanks for making it available!
I'm looking forward to test it.


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StarmanDan
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Reged: 08/27/07

Loc: Deep in the heart of Texas
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: bhuvfe]
      #4947523 - 12/03/11 09:25 AM

I wonder how hard it would be to include dark frame subtraction into the stacking process?

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LoveChina61
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Reged: 06/20/09

Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #4947537 - 12/03/11 09:32 AM

Quote:

This will be 2x stacking. No sliding window stacking nor more than 2x possible.




Do you mean that the maximum number of single frames that can be stacked upon each other is just 2? I have heard that the freeware Deep Sky Stacker LIVE can continuously stack single frames on top of each other on-the-fly without limit. However, I do not think the DSS LIVE program has the nice gamma functions that this Gstar program has. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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ccs_hello
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: LoveChina61]
      #4947701 - 12/03/11 10:52 AM

The current version of the software is hardcoded at 2. I suggest a new thread to be created to provide feedback/suggestions.

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Michael Rapp
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #4947923 - 12/03/11 12:49 PM

Quote:

and due to it's stacking on the fly of 2 lots of 512x integrations it theoretically gives 1024x (16 seconds). And smoothing decreases the effect of noise and allows graduated Gamma control.




This is a point of much confusion in astronomical CCD use. It sure was for me. I don't think I began to have a good grasp of it until I really studied it. (Berry and Burnell's AIP4Win book is an excellent resource.) Even then, I still may misspeak as I write this, for which I give my apologies in advance.

First, let's define "integration." Integration is essentially exposure time. When I am at x256 my photosites are open for collecting the electrical charge resulting from an impact of a photon for 4.3 seconds. Likewise, when I go to x512, my photosites are available for 8.5 seconds.

Let's say I am imaging a field of view in which ten photons per second are falling on my detector. (We're ignoring the randomness of light, also known as Poisson statistics, to keep my brain from exploding.)

Let's say I get two screen captures at 8.5 seconds and stack them. Each frame contains the collection of 85 photons (again, ignoring Poisson statistics). If I average the frames (the usual definition of stacking), have I increased my integration? By stacking have I collected 170 instead of 85 photons?

No, I argue. You have not collected any more photons! You have not increased your integration at all. You just have two frames with an 8.5 second integration.

Well, if this is true...why is it that stacked images look better? The answer is that when you stack and average images, you're able to average out the noise -- which is random -- and better bring out the signal, which is more or less constant. In other words, stacking improves the signal to noise ratio of an image.

Stacked images are not brighter (which would be the case if you really were increasing your integration) nor more colorful than the original images, but they do have a far better signal-to-noise ratio allowing you to see more detail and apply more aggressive enhancement, such as curves.

The author of DeepSkyStacker provides an excellent illustration of this here.

Again, someone please correct me if I made a grievous error.


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Raginar
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Michael Rapp]
      #4948088 - 12/03/11 02:14 PM

Mike, you pretty much hit it spot on. More S-N allows you to be more aggressive with your photoshop skills.

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Raginar
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Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Raginar]
      #4948113 - 12/03/11 02:29 PM

Well, I'm out till I can get a good capture card for windows... my mac one doesn't want to play nicely with it.

Sorry guys


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biomedchad
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Marion, Ohio
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: Raginar]
      #4948818 - 12/03/11 10:12 PM

what i take away from this is that our mallincam software is capable of much more then we have now. for the video side that is. it would be great to be able to adjust curves/stack/remove darks within one piece of software. someone needs to get to work on this!!

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greg
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Reged: 01/25/05

Loc: Central Ca.
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: biomedchad]
      #4949840 - 12/04/11 03:40 PM

Do I understand that this program only stacks 2 images?

And if so does it auto save the image to a file?

If it saves the stacked image to a file what format is the saved image?

Can the stacked image be saved in a format and folder that Deep Sky Stacker Live can see and work with?

If so, DeepSkyStackerLive would monitor the folder and
would be stacking GStar-EX enhanced images.

Maybe both DeepskyStackerLive and the GStar-EX programs can work together to produce a Semi Live Enhanced image that can be grabbed by MannyCam ? ? ?

Please Dumb down your answers for me (and others)

GregW


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Chris A
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Reged: 02/03/07

Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: greg]
      #4949879 - 12/04/11 04:06 PM

Greg even though Manycam is free, when using it to capture off of your desktop screen the picture quality is very poor causing it to be too blurry unless you figure something else out that Don or myself has figured out. Manycam works great when using it directly with your camera but when using it to capture the screen its a different story. We compared Webcam Max to Manycam for capturing the computer screen and Webcam Max is way more superior and is worth the 40 to 45 dollars if you will be using it to broadcast from your screen. Just thought i would let you know just in case you did not.

Chris


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greg
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/25/05

Loc: Central Ca.
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: greg]
      #4949909 - 12/04/11 04:25 PM

Maybe by using the Quick Snap Shot and save in BMP format and have DeepSkyStackerLive monitor the Quick Snap Shot Folder?

Then Each time you take a Quick Snap Shot of a 2X stacked image it will go to the Quick Snap Shot folder and be monitored and stacked by DeepSkyStackerLive and you could then Monitor the DeepSkyStackerLive Image with MannyCam to see an Images that just gets better and better (To a point, probibly arround 10-15 images).

MannyCam can then be used to Broadcast an on the Fly enhanced stacked semi Live image that to the viewers looks to be a live image that gets more and more smooth with each refresh ? ? ?

If this would work, it would work for all video cameras.

One would need a fast computer that could handle Multipal programs running at the same time.

Am I on the right Page or off in left feild? ? ?

I have stacked live before but found I had to do too many hands on grabbing and saving to make it worth my efforts....

If I could just click once to save to the Quick shot folder every time my camera refreshed that would be easy.....

It would be even better if the software had a timer that would auto save a snapshot for me...


Remmember.... Dumb it down for me...

GregW


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RickShelton
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Reged: 08/20/09

Loc: Winston Salem, NC USA
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: greg]
      #4950202 - 12/04/11 07:21 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

@Chris A
Are you trying manycam with the default settings? Even though you can change it to what ever resolution you want it will stay at 320*240. The only way to increase resolution is to "enable custom video source and then create a custom video source and then you can set the resolution at whatever you want.
I talked GregW through it on NSN one night and he seemed pleased with the results.
Here is a screen grab from mine and it isn't blurry at all.
In manycam enable custom source
then create a custom source with an unique name like NSN Video
Then in manycam you still use screen grab as a source but in NSN you select the NSN Video as the source.
Cheers,
Rick


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greg
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Reged: 01/25/05

Loc: Central Ca.
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: RickShelton]
      #4950349 - 12/04/11 08:52 PM

Thanks to Rick.... He saved me $45.00 as I was just about to buy WebCamMax...
Rick helpped to get the right setting for MannyCam and I was VERY Happy with it...

The words on the desk top became Very clear when I reset the resolution.

GregW


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Chris A
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/03/07

Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: Would you like to double your Samsung integration? new [Re: greg]
      #4950567 - 12/04/11 10:58 PM

Excellent Greg that is good news and that will save others some money in the future.

Cheers


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