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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #5328331 - 07/21/12 01:55 PM

Hi Alistair

depends what you mean on 1/6 wave, do you mean overal correction, which is what you see at the startest, or do you mean critical carefull measured by interferometer ?

we sold many LZOS which show a 1/8 wave startest but measured due small areas on paper by interferometer 1/4 or to 1/5 wave.

we do on each scope a startest and we will accept only good scopes by my human eye startest.
Lemons we will return in case we get such.
If you want super high end, get a LZOS 152/1200 doublet, we have them now in stock.
On a mass production of 250 pc as we do with the chinese we have to accept a kind of varation in terms of quality, but we will test them and sell no Lemons


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Live_Steam_Mad
sage


Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5328667 - 07/21/12 06:20 PM

Hello Markus,

Quote:

depends what you mean on 1/6 wave, do you mean overal correction, which is what you see at the startest, or do you mean critical carefull measured by interferometer ?




I mean by the Star Test done by an experienced human eye, I do not much trust interferometer testing just yet.

Quote:

we sold many LZOS which show a 1/8 wave startest but measured due small areas on paper by interferometer 1/4 or to 1/5 wave.




Understood. I would accept the LZOS as a high quality planetary instrument if I saw a 1/8 wave Star Test. I don't really care what the interferometer says.

Quote:

we do on each scope a startest and we will accept only good scopes by my human eye startest.




Now you see there's what I mean. You Star Test each of your new 6" F8 OTA (the subject of this forum topic) but WHAT level of correction are you going to be rejecting as being not good enough?

I need 1/6 wave minimum of SA (Spherical Aberration) (and no astigmatism) on the Star Test to give me the correction that I need to give me good detail on Jupiter, from what I see on Aberrator.

Wish I could test my Meade SN102 on Jupiter but it's too low down at the moment to get a good view.

BTW When I say Star Test, I mean using the methods in H R Suiter's book (on my Meade SN102, I tested on Alkaid, the left most star in Ursa Major, a 2nd mag. star, at 100x and defocussed by the amount recommended in his book either side of focus, and saw about 1/4 wave of undercorrection in SA. For a 6" I would want to still see a good star test at say 350x, but you do the main test at 10x per 10mm of aperture, so at 150x for the 6", as I understand it?).

BTW How do you conduct your star test on a 6" F8, I am curious to know if I am doing anything "wrong"?

If I see great detail on Jupiter with your 6" F8 that I might buy, and a very faint 1st diffraction ring on mag. 2 stars, then I will be very grateful, and will realise that the instrument is excellent.

For me, 1/4 wave is merely "good". 1/6 to 1/8 wave SA and no Astigmatism or other faults I consider to be excellent, and it's an excellent 'scope that I need to upgrade to. "Good" just isn't good enough. "Diffraction Limited" isn't good enough. Aberrator shows me that.

>Lemons we will return in case we get such.

Good, since I have a 19.5" F4.1 that has about 1.5 waves SA (!), and I grew up with a 60mm refractor that never even showed ANY diffraction pattern at either 37x or 125x (!) so I have had my fill of *BLEEP* optics for one life time. But then I got more lucky and got a just about perfect C11, and a Meade 7" Maksutov LX50 OTA for 100 GBP that is pretty good on the Star Test.

I bought the SN102 as a grab and go 'scope, it cools in 25 mins and has good optics. Unlike my friend Jon whose SN102 is moderately astigmatic, and has 1/2 wave undercorrected SA...

>If you want super high end, get a LZOS 152/1200 doublet, we have them now in stock.

If only... funds are limited to say the least. I still haven't even got a mount yet for the two OTA's I have. Would the HEQ5 or EQ6 be fairly stable (damping times 2 to 3 seconds at 250x) with your 6" F8?

>On a mass production of 250 pc as we do with the chinese we have to accept a kind of varation in terms of quality

Now you see that is what makes me nervous to order one. Of course what matters is the amount of variation - it is the minimum level of correction that I have to worry about as a potential customer. However if you can guarantee at least 1/6 wave at the star test with human eye then I would order one as soon as I have seen impartial reviews (Ed Ting, Todd Gross, etc).

Cheers,

Alistair G.


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #5329193 - 07/22/12 01:33 AM

Hi Alistair

if youz are really such a critical startest, sometimes you would reject even some worldfamous apo's which show sometimes a startest you would never believe to see by the high claims.

so I bring you some samples to get us at the same startest level



above is a startest of a excellent optics, guess around 1/8 P.t.v. with a very mild little center zonal defect , very smooth, but if the effect I see on the smaller defocused images is not from camera, then this optics would have a cell pinching, seen by the non round 6 corner circle

-----------


above is not a bad scope either, it has more color and a small undercorrection and is not as much smooth as first picture, but a general nice polished surface. Again I can notice a zonal deffect, but this time a very low wider diameter, almost invisible, such once you find in very many apos of very many manufacturers even famous once.

This ia good scope and would pass my test for shipping, of course if there is not coma and not astigmatism on the axis
--------


aboe not a to bad either, it has a small turned edge ( undercorrection) and a visible center zon, so this one would be around my lower border for passing

finaly, the guys you mention I know personaly very well from old days and I repesct here work very much, but they are in no way reference people for me for doing startests, not at all.

Since you seems to see a person who wait till others jumped in and reviewed stuff, you will be one who has to wait a lot longer before you may buy and get one

on Top here http://www.teleskop-shop.at/testphotos/Refractor_color_test/Vega_testphotos_apochromats.jpg

a web link which show many diffrent startest images , not talking about the color, only about how they look like, all of them would be allowed to go into the market

Th SKW 120/900BD and SW66/400 would be my lowest limit of allowed undercorrection

have a great weekend

Edited by APM M.Ludes (07/22/12 05:35 AM)


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Live_Steam_Mad
sage


Reged: 07/24/07

Loc: Moss Bank, St.Helens, England
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5343827 - 07/30/12 05:11 PM

Hi Markus,

Quote:

so I bring you some samples to get us at the same startest level



above is a startest of a excellent optics,




Concerning these first group of images of the 100/550... I don't understand how this is a Star Test in the normal way. Since the DSLR in question has a sensor width of 22.5mm and sensor height of 15mm, then magnification here at Prime Focus with this 550mm FL 'scope would be 20x

http://www.astro.shoregalaxy.com/dslr_calc.htm#calculator

http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/Technologies_Features/CMOS_Sensor.aspx

...whereas according to Mr.Suiter's book you should instead be Star Testing at 100x with a 4" refractor (1x per mm). Presumably you should also be using the Eyepiece Projection method, and an integration of say 2000 frames of short exposure, aligned with e.g. Registax).

I don't see how you can call this excellent optics without seeing a test at 100x .

Now, if you see these same patterns at 100x then I can see that the two large images are defocussed way too much (maybe around 18 waves or so?) whereas they should be defocussed to 12 or 10 waves at most (count the rings).

With the two medium sized patterns, they seem to be defocussed to the correct number of waves (but contrast /resolution is problematic so I can't see the ring stucture properly). The outer ring is noticeably brighter for the intra-focal pattern, so it's Undercorrected for Spherical Aberration, in this case by about 1/5 wave, simulating it with Aberrator. Yes I agree with there being a central zone (darker in centre on one pattern and brighter by same amount on the corresponding pattern).

The two small images are puzzling. They look to be defocussed by 5 or 6 waves, but the SA looks to if anything be showing overcorrection! But then again the extra-focal pattern is smaller than the intra-focal pattern, so they can't be directly compared properly I suppose.

On a side note - Suiter's book says that when there is a turned edge in a refractor, the inside focus pattern has contrasty rings, whereas the outside focus pattern has low contrast (poorly defined) rings. Oddly enough in my SN102 the situation is reversed. I have high contrast rings on the outside, lower contrast rings inside. But the outer ring is quite similar brightness on both patterns on my 102, only a bit brighter inside focus (showing maybe 1/4 wave SA undercorrection).

>guess around 1/8 P.t.v. with a very mild little center zonal defect , very smooth, but if the effect I see on the smaller defocused images is not from camera, then this optics would have a cell pinching, seen by the non round 6 corner circle

If you have two images that are oval, I always check for one pattern being at 90 degrees rotation from the other, and being oval by the same amount, which is a sure sign of Astigmatism.

I have 3.0 Diopteres (!) of astigmatism (severe) in my best eye, which means that with my SN102 I can remove my glasses at 180x and 200x (9mm Meade MA + Barlow, 8mm TV Radian + Barlow, 0.5mm exit pupil) and see a sharp round Airy disc with one rather fainter diffraction ring, but at 90x or 100x (without Barlow) (1mm exit pupil) my own astigmatism makes me see definite crosses even with my glasses on, which annoys me. My spectacles are 3 years old so maybe I need a eye test.

With low power (32x, 64x) I see very noticeable crosses on stars, I can tell it's from my own eyes because when I defocus the pattern is rather oval (unlike at high power) and the pattern's ovality rotates WHEN I ROTATE MY HEAD, and at high power there is just a little astigmatism and the oval pattern stays fixed in orientation. When stars go towards the edges of the field the eyepiece off-axis astigmatism dominates the view. With my glasses off, my eye's astigmatism dominates everything and stars are horrendous crosses.

-----------


For this second scope you do not supply any details of what the magnification is that I am seeing the diffraction pattern at, so with respect, any opinions would be meaningless unless you can tell us what the magnification is. Also the amount of defocus is far too high and the rings are very low contrast. Not a useful star test IMHO.

--------


>aboe not a to bad either, it has a small turned edge ( undercorrection) and a visible center zon, so this one would be around my lower border for passing

Again you do not give the magnification that the diffraction pattern is being viewed at (which again is of course critical) but OK let's assume that it is at an appropriate magnification, in which case WOW yes it has a very obvious turned down edge.

Using Aberrator 2, since Aberrator 3 doesn't seem to be able to simulate TDE (?) then I see about 1/4 wave of TDE, which is not "small", considering that this looks to be an expensive APO.

>finaly, the guys you mention I know personaly very well from old days and I repesct here work very much, but they are in no way reference people for me for doing startests, not at all.

Sorry I don't agree at all. I have read many of Ed Ting's reviews and he is a very experienced Star Tester and I would trust what he says (since he is not a seller or manufacturer LOL). With respect, you are not going to be an independent tester of these intruments that you are going to be selling. Hence my wanting to see some indepedent reviews (of RANDOM samples), plus at least a number of people who are also happy with the star test, before I order. Otherwise, I have seen too many optics which do not satisfy me.

I read somewhere that there are machines that can lay down 1/10 wave onto glass repeatably. Yet I see a lot of telescopes with 1/2 wave SA etc. That's the part I don't understand.

At this time I only trust TMB, Takahashi, or AstroPhysics. If someone else can keep the quality control consistently high then I would trust them too. Otherwise I have read too many reviews from experienced figures in the hobby which say things like "noticeable astigmatism on this C9.25" etc...

Quality control is EVERYTHING. LOL.


>on Top here http://www.teleskop-shop.at/testphotos/Refractor_color_test/Vega_testphotos_apochromats.jpg

With respect, the person who has created these has not supplied details of what the magnification is of the diffraction pattern, thereby making these star test or comparisons useless. Also these are star tests on Vega, when instead Suiter states in his book that one should be using a mag. 2 star for 4" and maybe mag. 3 for 6" and larger. Not Vega, which will overestimate the aberrations.

Just my personal opinions based on what I read in Suiter's book and what Aberrator 2/3 shows me.

Regards,

Alistair G.


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Live_Steam_Mad]
      #5347153 - 08/01/12 03:07 PM

Hi Allister

1, everybody who does a startest or imaging a startest understand that the first image is not a prime focuse image, but a projection image, otherwise you would not get such big scale

the brightness of the images depends on exporshure times. The brightness is not important at all and not what you looking for, you look for the symmetry and if they the fressnell rings are nice and smooth and if the outer bright ring is very similar

Please use aberrator and show me your estimation of 1/5 wave side by side with this given images

regards contrast of the fressnell rings you suiter is right what he say, if you do the test right. Any apo has spherochromatism and thats why you use filters .
Apos have if perfect made a perfect spherical correction at one wavelength, normaly at green, so if you use a green filter you see perfect image on both sides, but if you use in same scope a blue or red filter you see diffrences due the spherochromatism


Second image: you are partly right, but a scilled startester or optician still can read a lot out of the second image and it shows no big errors

third image : 1/4 wave turned edge is formyself to much too, but you would not believe how many apos have such level of correction, even some famous once

You trust whom you want, your deal, I trust with whom I did togher a startest and I did startesting with ED and I have my own opinion

You trust companys due here long time earned reputation, I dont , I have seen from any company in the world , from any apo maker in the world, good and bad optics

The person who created that startests also tests by interferometer, yes he could or should supply more info, but people who know startesting very well, still can read a lot out of those pictures

the first scope was interferometrical tested with 1/6.5 wavefront p.t.v. and 96.5% strehl and thats a superb optics, espcialy when you consider its a F/5.5 triplet


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saemark30
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/21/12

Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5348670 - 08/02/12 12:49 PM

Hi Markus,
what eyepiece(s) do you use for the projection images?


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: saemark30]
      #5348929 - 08/02/12 03:51 PM

extremly clean onces, best choice is a ortho, due its colorcorrection and no distortion

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tommy_nawratil
newbie


Reged: 07/03/10

Loc: Austria/Europe
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5363289 - 08/11/12 12:39 PM

hi,

this startest on the 100/550 Skywatcher Triplet Apo was indeed done in primary focus, not in projection, to exclude any addional optics and their influence. The purpose was actually to get an idea of the color correction mainly. You know, nowadays there is a flood of different scopes all labeled "apochromatic", and this is an easy way to get an impression of how the scope really deals with colors for photographic purposes. Examine color fringing at focus and around the defocussed star (Vega). It's part of a comparative series I do, see the whole series here and zoom in a lot to see especially color fringes around focus clearly:
http://www.teleskop-shop.at/testphotos/Refractor_color_test/Vega_testphotos_apochromats.jpg

In that pics you only could see the coarsest surface errors. Surface evaluation by star test would need more magnification and smaller defocus of course, as suggested by Suiter. Also, these pics are snapshots and suffer from seeing artefacts especially near focus, where the exposure time has to be short not to burn out the disks.

Color correction depends a lot on the used glasses and remains for a given model, real star testing should always be made on the individual scope.

The surface of this 100/500 Skywatcher Apo was determined separately using interferometry. Therefore I can confirm there is a very slight central zone, but main error (if you want to call it like this) is a slight overcorrection that counts for a loss of 3% Strehl ratio only, still a near perfect scope.

clear skies!
Tommy

edit: Just saw Alistair already postet the link to the series, sorry to double it. But I hope I could point out what is the purpose of these tests, and why I choosed Vega and no projection method.
Magnification - I think the magnification of a photo depends on what size it is displayed and from what distance do you look at it, it's not a fixed value like using an eyepiece visually where you can exactly tell how much the angular size of an object is multiplied.

Edited by tommy_nawratil (08/11/12 08:38 PM)


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Sean Puett
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: tommy_nawratil]
      #5370179 - 08/15/12 01:52 PM

I don't want to search through the whole thread. Is there a date for shipping yet?

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tomharri
sage
*****

Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: USA
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5370195 - 08/15/12 02:03 PM

Just in time for Christmas 2012, if the arabs havn't nuked anyone first!!.

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WarrenS
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/04/08

Loc: Orange County New York
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: tomharri]
      #5370409 - 08/15/12 05:04 PM

Quote:

Just in time for Christmas 2012, if the arabs havn't nuked anyone first!!.




Hopefully before December 21, when the Mayan calender flips and the world ends. Oh wait, I forgot, the end of the world was cancelled!


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gmartin02
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 04/11/05

Loc: Santa Clarita, CA
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: tomharri]
      #5370709 - 08/15/12 09:09 PM

Quote:

Just in time for Christmas 2012, if the arabs havn't nuked anyone first!!.


I know you meant this (ignorant) comment in jest, but you have just violated the TOS of these forums. This is straight from the Cloudy Nights Terms of Service: "No posts of a political nature."

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: gmartin02]
      #5371740 - 08/16/12 03:14 PM

beginn to middle of september 3 test samples going out to me, after I aprooved them production will start

you will see a live sample in Arizona in November at the new show. The sample will be there for sale at shows end , 1 of the first 3 if they aproove


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Ambiorix
member


Reged: 05/01/11

Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5375746 - 08/19/12 10:43 AM

Not wanting to start a war here, but Ronaldo from...well you all know him, wishes Markus good luck with this new "cheap" ED doublet, and he says he will need it! Ronaldo his never seen any good samples of the glass you are using for this scope (not the lanthanum, which he finds excellent, but the other one....FK something). According to Ronaldo this glass is inferior, to say the least, and your scopes will not perform with this glass at all and you will loose your money with this experiment.....forget the exact terminology he used, but it was something in the trend like "this glas, FK something is never clear or never suited for usage in a fine telescope...

Hope he's wrong, because I was interested,....but Ronaldo is not exactly what you might call an amateur, but one of the most respected people in the industry....

Just my, well Ronaldo's two cents....


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Alvan Clark
sage


Reged: 03/13/10

Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Ambiorix]
      #5375801 - 08/19/12 11:23 AM

I don't know about Markus losing money. He claimed earlier that if the scopes don't perform he will not pay for them.

I'm just taking a wait and see approach. He mentioned earlier a 160mm with FPL 53 which is more interesting to me anyway.


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gatorengineer
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/28/05

Loc: Hellertown, PA
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Alvan Clark]
      #5376057 - 08/19/12 02:44 PM

Lets give Markus a break..... Meade did 6 and 7 inch ED APOs 10 years ago, at F9, F8 isnt much of a stretch given how far glass has came.... If Meade can do it Markus can do it.....

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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)
*****

Reged: 05/01/03

Loc: Germany
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5376928 - 08/20/12 02:08 AM

I am not worried right now to much. Many today chinese Apos made from FK61 and performing great. we informed Chengdu when we ordered the blanks about the info from Rolando and they promissed very good blanks, thats why the glas delivery took 4weeks longer then offered first.
Now next month I get a few samples for test and then we see the truth. if they keep the required quality we go into production and Chengdu will sell glas , if they deliver bad glas, the get no business.
Per my contract with the apo maker I pay only good products, so I have no mone risk at all


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Ambiorix
member


Reged: 05/01/11

Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5376973 - 08/20/12 03:17 AM

Good man, I really hope you will prove Ronaldo's wrong....fair enough, we'll see, if you do, you can count me in on one of those refractors, but as I said before, I am not trying to heat things up here, it's hot enough allready (40 degrees celsius in the shade) but, Ronaldo is not just anybody and, to be honest with you Markus, I would have been much happier and more comfortable buying one if only you'd use FPL-53 instead of FK-61.

Off course you allready have an LZOS Ricardi doublet....better...and more expensive too....so I understand...

But on the other hand.....

Heck, even really cheap Chinese brands are using FPL53 now on even their doublets, and with excellent result, and still at the same good prices, so I somehow wonder why you could not have gone in that direction....especially since you will be using it in your 160??

Well, you probably have your reasons, more profit probably, which is o.k., no problems, you have to make a living out of this after all:)

And if those FK-61 doublets will be very good, contrary to what Ronaldo is claiming, I will buy one immediately.

Keep us posted about the progress....!


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WarrenS
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/04/08

Loc: Orange County New York
Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: Ambiorix]
      #5377104 - 08/20/12 08:09 AM

With all due respect and not to question anyone's integrity, I recall that Roland' s glass comments were based on a sample he gave to his glass supplier to evaluate. I'm sure his glass supplier while honest, would not want to potentially lose his business if he said "yeah, this Chinese glass is excellent".

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Ambiorix
member


Reged: 05/01/11

Re: New 6" F/8 ED Doublets from APM Telescopes new [Re: WarrenS]
      #5377143 - 08/20/12 08:57 AM

I suppose that if Ronaldo gave a sample to his glass supplier, as you say, he absolutely must have thought that that supplier knew what he was doing, and that he could thrust him, otherwise a man like Ronaldo would not have given him that sample, if he new what he was going to answer in advance, and if he knew that supplier would tell him nonsence out of business interest, no?

Anyway, Ronaldo had someone who knew what he was doing test this glass, as far as I can understand at least, and it turned out 100% wrong with this FK-61.

But on the other hand, I understand your point, and it might have gone the way you think....but I doubt it....

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see. If markus thinks this glass is rubish, he won't buy it, simple as that, if it's good, we will finally be able to buy good doublets for visual use at good prices too.

Not a bad deal for all us us I should say....

Well and if it turns out the wrong way, Markus will have spent all his precious and "expensive" time for naught, and will have travelled to China for nothing too..So let's hope it turns out right for Markus and for us!:)

I'm slightly optimistic about it....but not 100%...


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