llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Jarad]
#5180306 - 04/19/12 01:23 PM
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I expect there were some empty stockings that year in Philadelphia.
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ccs_hello
Postmaster
Reged: 07/03/04
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: ccs_hello]
#5275277 - 06/17/12 07:20 AM
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Just wish to add a side note:
at this final week of my daughter's high school senior year, my family would like to congratulate her accomplishments at school. She is going to an Ivy's College of Engineering. Compare with the tough school work ahead, we would view her annual higher-education cost of $60,000 less painful.
She did have a few great teachers, especially Math, Physics, and English at her (public) high school. She did enjoy learning from them (and perhaps a bit from me being a long-time engineer.)
So there is a some hope. One little drop in the bucket at a time...
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
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JKoelman
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/16/11
Loc: Bangalore, India
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: jbattleson]
#5276016 - 06/17/12 06:20 PM
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"The United States is at risk of ceding its leadership in science"
Already the very first sentence is dubious. The US has at best played 2nd fiddle in science, with Europe since the very inception of modern science (Galileo, Newton, ...), being the undisputed global leader.
The second part of the twentieth century developed into the golden years of US science, a time at which it seemed the US was becoming the global leader. These golden years were purely the result of many of the best European scientists fleeing Europe. All of that is now behind us.
Two things have changed: 1) the larger public now starts to realize the US is not the global leader in science, and 2) a growing fear has developed that the US might soon be relegated to a third place with countries like China developing into science powerhouses.
Obviously, a country where a significant portion of the population advocates a flat earth theory to be teached at schools next to the spherical earth theory will never build a scientifically strong next generation. Unfortunately, that sums up where the US is right now.
Edited by llanitedave (06/17/12 09:59 PM)
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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Loc: Too Far North, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5276323 - 06/17/12 10:56 PM
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theory to be teached at schools..... Unfortunately, that sums up where the US is right now.
To be taught.
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5276357 - 06/17/12 11:29 PM
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Alright I gotta say a word or two here.
One, the sixties are not to blame.
Two, the decline did not start yesterday.
Three, our schools have been in terrible shape for a long time. I actually dropped out of high school and educated myself, because I did not trust the people running the school to do it for me. I made the decision during a bomb threat. In a driving sleet storm. In my gym shorts. Where was this? In the best suburban school system in the country. Or at least, in the southeast.
If you want to blame something, then blame the world war and the following cold war. Education went from being a natural part of life to "a priority". And when bureaucrats identify a priority, wreckage is soon to be found. And the priority was weapons research.
You can't have a normal life when the threat of world annihilation hangs over everyone's head.
Also - people were scared doodooless by the lunar trips. They may not admit it, but the sight of the Earth hanging in the blackness of space scared the bejeezus out of most people. They may feign fascination and really believe they are into it, but deep down, this was an extremely unsettling experience for the great majority who have no context into which it might be inserted. And so they turned on science - and then, turned science into something subject to social engineering, like race relations and domestic policy. In doing so, they alienated the natural scientists and promoted the bad ones - and so we get education and research policies that are completely out of whack. I honestly believe that this passive aggressive attack on real science is a subconscious effort to drive away the horrifying image of the lonely and delicate Earth hanging there in the middle of nothingness.
Well I could go on and on but that would be boring.
-drl
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: deSitter]
#5276378 - 06/17/12 11:55 PM
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If you want to blame something, then blame the world war and the following cold war. Education went from being a natural part of life to "a priority". And when bureaucrats identify a priority, wreckage is soon to be found. And the priority was weapons research.
"Call someplace Paradise, kiss it goodbye"
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Also - people were scared doodooless by the lunar trips. They may not admit it, but the sight of the Earth hanging in the blackness of space scared the bejeezus out of most people. They may feign fascination and really believe they are into it, but deep down, this was an extremely unsettling experience for the great majority who have no context into which it might be inserted. And so they turned on science - and then, turned science into something subject to social engineering, like race relations and domestic policy. In doing so, they alienated the natural scientists and promoted the bad ones - and so we get education and research policies that are completely out of whack. I honestly believe that this passive aggressive attack on real science is a subconscious effort to drive away the horrifying image of the lonely and delicate Earth hanging there in the middle of nothingness.
Not sure I agree with this, but then I've never really heard it before. Interesting idea.
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JKoelman
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/16/11
Loc: Bangalore, India
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5276431 - 06/18/12 12:49 AM
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theory to be teached at schools..... Unfortunately, that sums up where the US is right now.
To be taught.
Thanks. I vote for Dutch instead of English as www's Lingua Franca. 
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5276447 - 06/18/12 01:05 AM
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Too many people are unfamiliar with either language. We'll probably all end up speaking Textese.
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5276480 - 06/18/12 01:39 AM
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theory to be teached at schools..... Unfortunately, that sums up where the US is right now.
To be taught.
Thanks. I vote for Dutch instead of English as www's Lingua Franca.
Not until we all grow the three tongues needed to pronounce it.
-drl
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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Loc: Too Far North, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: deSitter]
#5276494 - 06/18/12 01:54 AM
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theory to be teached at schools..... Unfortunately, that sums up where the US is right now.
To be taught.
Thanks. I vote for Dutch instead of English as www's Lingua Franca.
Not until we all grow the three tongues needed to pronounce it.
-drl
As long as all the air traffic controllers speak English, I don't care.
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Skip
Starlifter Driver
Reged: 01/23/08
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5277035 - 06/18/12 12:21 PM
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significant portion of the population advocates a flat earth theory
What is "significant" to you? I've traveled all over the country (and the world) and I do a ton of astronomy outreach where I get to talk frequently to the general public and I've never heard anyone speak of the flat earth theory. You must run in different circles than I.
Or are you just using that as a metaphor for ideas about creation or evolution? If so, I agree with you.
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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/07
Loc: western Colorado
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: deSitter]
#5277201 - 06/18/12 02:12 PM
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Also - people were scared doodooless by the lunar trips. They may not admit it, but the sight of the Earth hanging in the blackness of space scared the bejeezus out of most people. They may feign fascination and really believe they are into it, but deep down, this was an extremely unsettling experience for the great majority who have no context into which it might be inserted. And so they turned on science - and then, turned science into something subject to social engineering, like race relations and domestic policy. In doing so, they alienated the natural scientists and promoted the bad ones - and so we get education and research policies that are completely out of whack. I honestly believe that this passive aggressive attack on real science is a subconscious effort to drive away the horrifying image of the lonely and delicate Earth hanging there in the middle of nothingness.
Well I could go on and on but that would be boring.
I can agree with the last sentence. The rest? Not so much. In fact, not at all.
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JKoelman
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/16/11
Loc: Bangalore, India
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Skip]
#5277666 - 06/18/12 07:54 PM
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significant portion of the population advocates a flat earth theory
are you just using that as a metaphor for ideas about creation or evolution? If so, I agree with you.
Yes. Apparently there was a complaint, and my post got moderated (the part explaining the metaphor got deleted). Anyway, what I mean is that religion can and does play an important role on profound issues like morality and ethics. However, a country that allows religion also to thread into science territory should not be surprized when they find out not to be a leader in science.
I sincerely hope nobody here is offended by such a remark.
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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Loc: Too Far North, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5277708 - 06/18/12 08:22 PM
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I think it's more that politics has dictated science by the means in which grants are allocated for example.
I hardly think that in this day and age the small percentage of people who believe that the universe is 6000 years old have much to do with the direction of science.
I've met a lot of people in my line of work and the vast majority are deists to one extent or the other. If your saying that they are not science minded because they go to church then your observation is akin to saying an athiest can't be a moral person. It's a blanket statement that doesn't hold water.
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JKoelman
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/16/11
Loc: Bangalore, India
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5277770 - 06/18/12 09:04 PM
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I hardly think that in this day and age the small percentage of people who believe that the universe is 6000 years old have much to do with the direction of science.
Small? In the US it's 46%. But again: it's not about size. Everyone is entitled to his or her views. It is fine if 99% of the population believes the universe is 6000 years old. That is... as long as that group does not interfere with science and the way it is taught.
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I've met a lot of people in my line of work and the vast majority are deists to one extent or the other. If your saying that they are not science minded because they go to church then your observation is akin to saying an athiest can't be a moral person. It's a blanket statement that doesn't hold water.
Let's keep the discussion straight please. Have you read my post? None of the views you are bringing forward here I have advocated in my post.
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If your saying
If you are saying.
Maybe we do need to switch to Dutch? 
Edited by JKoelman (06/18/12 09:27 PM)
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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Loc: Too Far North, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5277825 - 06/18/12 09:38 PM
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I read your post and apparently you didn't read mine because the main point was that politics is the main driver in the direction of science and not religion in the US.
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JKoelman
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/16/11
Loc: Bangalore, India
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5277847 - 06/18/12 09:50 PM
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That is an interesting reasoning: just because I react to a number of points raised in your post, but not to the one you happen to consider 'being the main point', I have not read your post?
To address your 'main point' (politics driving science): that is all too easy. Blame it on politics. What do you think drives politics?
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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
Reged: 03/11/04
Loc: Too Far North, USA
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: JKoelman]
#5277858 - 06/18/12 09:54 PM
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Come over to the house sometime and I'll explain it to you.
CN is no place for where you want to take this discussion.
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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
Reged: 11/23/04
Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Scott Horstman]
#5277864 - 06/18/12 09:59 PM
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Individuals from the United States have won 39% of all Nobel prizes and 47% of the total in the sciences. Link. That's well over 300.
I did note that individuals from Holland have won a total of 19 in the over 100 years of existence.
47% Not bad for a bunch of knuckle-dragging, Neanderthal creationists.
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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
Reged: 11/23/04
Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
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Re: Crisis for US Science
[Re: Shadowalker]
#5277891 - 06/18/12 10:16 PM
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I mention the Nobel stats not to brag about US achievements in science, but to debunk this statement from Johannes:
Quote:
The second part of the twentieth century developed into the golden years of US science, a time at which it seemed the US was becoming the global leader. These golden years were purely the result of many of the best European scientists fleeing Europe. All of that is now behind us.
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