BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/25/09
Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Whichwayisnorth]
#5220649 - 05/13/12 05:42 PM
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"Lets just wait until they fix the firmware for the Starlock and get them back out to people. Then we can test them and see how it goes."
Agreed. The proof will be in the pudding. However, keep in mind that differential flexure is not confined to the guider setup only. Focuser, imager extensions, filter wheel attachments, practically anything on the mount can cause or contribute. Look at Floyd's work in trying to tame it with his RC and separate guidescope mounting...
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Whichwayisnorth
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 07/04/11
Loc: Southern California
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Astronomiser.Com]
#5220675 - 05/13/12 06:03 PM
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Man Micheal, I did not realize the entire Starlock System is constructed as you stated. I'd assumed they had a nice quality refractor type setup. Now I am even more nervous.
I'll bet money you go with the Newly refined CGE Pro, which Celestron now states a native +/- 3 arc second typical unguided periodic error, which can be further reduced with PPEC. Even if it really is double that, those are great numbers.
Gary
That is a safe bet. If the weather works out so they can test mine on Monday night and they get it back to me Tuesday, I will play around with it in my back yard Tueday - thursday nights. If things seem to be working then Friday and Saturday night it will be out under dark skies and I will really put it through every test I can come up with. If it seems like a keeper then so be it. If not then I'll see about returning it for store credit and get the CGE-Pro plus some accessories(add-ons) to put me back where I need to be. Of course I still need to get the OTA out under good to great skies so I can evaluate that as well. Hopefully I can keep the OTA and just swap the mount. If not it looks like I just went in a big circle and back to the CGEPRO 14" Edge. Which is fine, I loved the EdgeHD OTA. Just when I think of having to re-purchase a hyperstar!
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WadeH237
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/24/07
Loc: Snohomish, WA
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Lee Jay]
#5220693 - 05/13/12 06:13 PM
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If that's true then Meade has failed a priori. If this attachment system hasn't been specifically designed to bring differential flexure under the mount's guiding specs for most situations, then they did it wrong. In the absence of evidence, I'll assume they aren't that ridiculous.
Differential flexure is not a guiding problem or a mount problem.
By definition, differental flexure is a problem anywhere in the system between the guide chip and the main imaging chip. You can have absolutely perfect guiding and still have problems with differential flexure. Even if you have a perfectly rigid guide scope, the main telescope itself will flex. In fact, most people learn about flexure first hand shortly after learning how to do very good guiding.
Keep in mind that with a separate guide scope, you have two different optical systems looking at the sky. If they don't move perfectly in sync with each other, you will get star trailing. On 5 or 10 minutes exposures, it's usually not noticeable unless it's pretty bad. By the time you get to 15 or 30 minute exposures, it starts getting pretty noticeable and really hard to correct.
The problem is that it there are many sources where it can be introduced. Someone mentioned a beefy saddle, but this is not (at least in my experience) typically a problem. Common sources include sagging of the focuser on either telescope, shifting of the primary mirror on either telescope (even with mirror locks, you'll get some shift.) If either telescope tube sags, you'll have it. If the camera is connected to the focuser by something other than 3 lockdown screws or a tightly threaded connection, then the camera can shift within the focuser.
You may think that you can solve the problem just with rigid parts, but the amount of flex needed to cause a problem is at the microscopic level. In practice, it's a really tough problem.
This is why to beat it, people use self guiding cameras and off-axis guiders. SBIG is working on a technique that uses two guide chips and an artificial star. The idea is that one guide chip takes frequent exposures to deal with what most people think of as guiding. Then, the second guide chip takes infrequent exposures using the artificial star so that it can detect and correct for flexure. But they've been talking about this for several years and I don't think that they've yet brought it to market.
So yes, even if Meade has made guiding one-button easy and reliable, they are not trying to address differential flexure here.
To me, none of this means that Meade has failed. And it certainly does not make me think that they are ridiculous. Instead, I think that they've built a system for a specific market (beginning imagers). Of all of their claims for the LX800, I don't recall ever seeing them claim that they address flexure. I don't fault their marketing department from calling out things that they don't do.
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frolinmod
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/06/10
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Alph]
#5220732 - 05/13/12 06:39 PM
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Jeez! What for?
Alph, have you purchased one or are you living vicariously?
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
   
Reged: 07/20/07
Loc: California
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Whichwayisnorth]
#5220741 - 05/13/12 06:47 PM
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The biggest differential flexure for the SCT on this system, is not differential flexure, but mirror flop. But there will likely be some flexure too. With a heavy OTA mounted on one side and the guider on the other. Light weight on the guider will help, no doubt with flexure, but does nothing to combat mirror flop. Blueman
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Astronomiser.Com
member
   
Reged: 01/13/08
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Whichwayisnorth]
#5220868 - 05/13/12 08:16 PM
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I've been watching High Point Scientific website for two weeks now. They initially had all LX800's at original prices. When Meade raised prices, so did they. That lasted three days, and they revamped their prices back to original last Monday. Interesting...
http://www.highpointscientific.com/category/brands.10_meade.00-telescopes.lx_800/
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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/27/08
Loc: Westminster, CO
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Re: LX-800
[Re: blueman]
#5220873 - 05/13/12 08:18 PM
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The biggest differential flexure for the SCT on this system, is not differential flexure, but mirror flop.
Meade clams no mirror flop or image shift at all on the new optical tubes.
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OzAndrewJ
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 11/30/10
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Re: LX-800
[Re: JSnuff1]
#5220883 - 05/13/12 08:24 PM
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Gday JSnuff
Re Quote:
Here is a pic of the gearbox...Ill have a more full report tonight!
Dont suppose you had a look at the motor/encoder??? Its looking more like the CPU is the same as the old LX200s, ( so Alph gets a blue elephant stamp ) and the stored PEC model indicates it has three turn PEC on RA, but, it shows no fingerprint data. Reading the manual leaves me confused 
Sooo, to help with the digging a) Can you see the encoder and if so, does it have a lable that lists a line/vane count?? b) Can you get a good high quality piccy of the gears from face on, ie so we can get enough of a view to count the teeth, and hence match harmonics in the PE to a gear. c) Have you even turned PEC on yet??? d) Does the scope detect its PEC sensors on booting??? Ie without any fingerprint data, it cant reset itself to the PEC datum ( as we currently know it ). In the LX200s, if this occurs, the scope auto refingerprints itself, but the limited data to date shows no data??
The following from the manual is what confuses me Quote:
PEC training is available for both drives.
Dunno how you train DEC on a GEM 
More of a concern From the Starlock section re PEC Training
Quote:
This training will be remembered, so long as you park your mount at the end of each session. Failure to park the scope will require retraining.
This sort of implies there are no sensors to reset PEC, so if you dont park every time, the PEC model becomes useless ( similar to 497s ) Dunno if that is the case, but interesting to chase up if you want to use external guiders or unguided PEC only with an AO unit.
Andrew
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
   
Reged: 07/20/07
Loc: California
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Lee Jay]
#5220946 - 05/13/12 09:23 PM
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Hi, I will believe that when I see it. .0015" is enough to cause elongated stars. Maybe I will be surprised?
Blueman
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Quote:
The biggest differential flexure for the SCT on this system, is not differential flexure, but mirror flop.
Meade clams no mirror flop or image shift at all on the new optical tubes.
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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/06/04
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Re: LX-800
[Re: rcdk]
#5221009 - 05/13/12 10:13 PM
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So far I have seen 3 issues:
1) Starlock Calibration routine. A firmware update will fix this. 2) Loose bolts in the mount. Easy fix. 3) Large periodic error, meant to be compensated for by Starlock guiding.
Meade is apparently on top of #1. #2 is the sort of thing they are plagued by -- whoever is running their assembly line should be held responsible. #3 is a Marketing/price decision (Why spend a bunch of money getting rid of PE natively when the integrated autoguider can do it?).
I see nothing that hurts the end consumer as much as it hurts Meade. Fast forward a few weeks and #1 will no longer be an issue, #2 will probably still be there and people will just tighten the bolts themselves. #3 will be a lot less of an issue when #1 is addressed.
Do you really think these are the only issues to be dealt with for this mount? This is the first F/W fix being issued. It won't be the last. There are still bugs.
I have some predicions on what we are going to see with this thing. I'm not sure if I should say them though since it may get tagged as bashing on Meade.
Anyway, interesting times!
Clear skies,
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JSnuff1
sage
Reged: 12/29/04
Loc: NY
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Whichwayisnorth]
#5221126 - 05/13/12 11:39 PM
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Was hoping JSnuff1 had good luck last night and was able to re-run his tests by turning starlock off and just using the mount without guiding and get back to us on that 20 number.
Unfortunately clouds set in and will be here until wensday again ;/
Eitherway when I took that first set of data it was with starlock off, so it was native PE without guiding. It was just very rough data because of bad polar alightment, bad seeing and didn't have pempro fully calibrated.
Im working with andrew to get some ASCOM drivers going for the LX800. What we have discovered so far is that the LX800 pretty much uses the same software/chipsets from the LX200.
(There are whole boards dated back to 2001 in this thing, talk about taking the cheap route).
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rcdk
super member
Reged: 11/13/10
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Gord]
#5221149 - 05/14/12 12:14 AM
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Well, I needed to update the firmware on my LX90 and tighten a bolt when I got it and it has been flawless ever since.
Or maybe the thing will cause the sun to go nova. But running down the list of things that could go wrong from worst to bad is vendor bashing.
I do want to see the hobby move forward, and I am both disappointed by the problems the LX800 is having and encouraged that Meade is attempting to innovate and bring more options to market. Even outside of niche markets it is necessary to take a stepwise approach forward, in quality and features. You can only take so big a step before the costs start to eat you up. You have to take a product to market and recover costs and it is always before you want to do it.
If you wait too long and the cost gets too high not only does the product fail to make money, it fails to have the impact on the market that is needed and quite often you don't even wind up with more quality.
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gary-sue69
sage
   
Reged: 07/19/07
Loc: Maybee MI.
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Re: LX-800
[Re: rcdk]
#5221308 - 05/14/12 03:20 AM
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Well, I needed to update the firmware on my LX90 and tighten a bolt when I got it and it has been flawless ever since.
Or maybe the thing will cause the sun to go nova. But running down the list of things that could go wrong from worst to bad is vendor bashing.
I do want to see the hobby move forward, and I am both disappointed by the problems the LX800 is having and encouraged that Meade is attempting to innovate and bring more options to market. Even outside of niche markets it is necessary to take a stepwise approach forward, in quality and features. You can only take so big a step before the costs start to eat you up. You have to take a product to market and recover costs and it is always before you want to do it.
If you wait too long and the cost gets too high not only does the product fail to make money, it fails to have the impact on the market that is needed and quite often you don't even wind up with more quality.
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Lee Jay
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/27/08
Loc: Westminster, CO
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Re: LX-800
[Re: blueman]
#5221483 - 05/14/12 09:00 AM
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Hi, I will believe that when I see it. .0015" is enough to cause elongated stars. Maybe I will be surprised?
It's a preloaded roller system like a Crayford focuser so it should have zero clearance and the only shift should come from elastic deflection.
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Gord
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/06/04
Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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Re: LX-800
[Re: rcdk]
#5221539 - 05/14/12 09:42 AM
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But running down the list of things that could go wrong from worst to bad is vendor bashing.
There's that sentiment again that anything expressed that is critical or questioning even if it's based on fact is bashing. What is this supposed to be, all compliments all the time?
And your comments about product development and when to release are well grounded in reality, but aren't what we are seeing here. The thing is going out the door in a non-working state at present. There's a big difference between incremental improvements and advances, and not even being at working.
That being said, it's still something they could do, but they would need to be stating it up front to people as the what is working/tested, and what is not. You see it in software a lot (an errata list included with a product).
Based on what has been seen, what Meade has said, what the product specs are, there are a lot of very well founded predictions that can be made here. But as I said, it seems the "commodity fetishism" wants to get in the way of that.
Clear skies,
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beammeup
member
Reged: 12/22/08
Loc: Straight of Gibraltar
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Re: LX-800
[Re: beammeup]
#5221545 - 05/14/12 09:47 AM
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Has anybody managed to get this mount to work yet?
So I guess the answer is no.
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JSnuff1
sage
Reged: 12/29/04
Loc: NY
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Re: LX-800
[Re: beammeup]
#5221736 - 05/14/12 11:38 AM
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Has anybody managed to get this mount to work yet?
So I guess the answer is no.
All of us that currently have the mount are still waiting for Meade to issue a Starlock firmware update to fix a DEC drift issue that is caused when it locks onto a star.
We are all pretty much dead in the water until we get this update...last I heard from Meade was beginning of this week.
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Whichwayisnorth
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 07/04/11
Loc: Southern California
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Re: LX-800
[Re: JSnuff1]
#5221857 - 05/14/12 12:45 PM
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They are using mine to test everything before they make available the firmware. They claim to have solved the problem but they need a night or two of testing to confirm that everything works as it should. Night time marine layer and dew has caused issues only giving them an hour or so before they need to pack up. Same thing was happening to me the few days I had it. Once they are done and satisfied they can fix the issue with a patch, they will release it. They are closed on weekends so if things go well Monday night(tonight) they may have it available as soon as tomorrow. If the weather is bad again it will take longer.
I invited Meade to come out to my clubs dark sky site to demo it and get some positive feedback on the mount and OTA.
There was no response to that offer.
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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories
   
Reged: 07/20/07
Loc: California
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Re: LX-800
[Re: Lee Jay]
#5221874 - 05/14/12 12:55 PM
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That sounds good, let's hope it works as stated. Blueman
Quote:
Quote:
Hi, I will believe that when I see it. .0015" is enough to cause elongated stars. Maybe I will be surprised?
It's a preloaded roller system like a Crayford focuser so it should have zero clearance and the only shift should come from elastic deflection.
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Alph
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/23/06
Loc: Melmac
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Re: LX-800
[Re: JSnuff1]
#5222119 - 05/14/12 03:17 PM
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We are all pretty much dead in the water until we get this update
There are other things to test and evaluate, e.g. high precision pointing, starlock assisted drift alignment (is that broken too?), one star and two star polar alignment. C'mon guys. Get to work
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