whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/05/12
Loc: pittsburgh,pa
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Richard Low]
#5199409 - 05/01/12 12:21 AM
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No eyepiece will ever be perfect!!! not even pentax!!! nto televue not anyone!!! all we can do is judge people based on thoier effort to produce a truly outstanding product and i plus 10 televue becasue they put alot of time and effort into thier lines to make sure us observers get the most out of the wonderful objects we are loooking at!!!!
When i first started observing i refused to purchase a tv eypieice!!!! i just kept thinking..where do they get off thinking they can charge us hundreds of dollars for a stinking eyepiece!!!! but then i learned of all the hard work a dn thought that went into producing such a well oiled machine!!!
and when i got my first tv ep (19 PAN) i was shocked at the difference compared to other brands!!!!
Jst like now TMB supermonos reputation is starting to get tarneshed becasue of someone mentioning a little bit of feild curvature when looking at the moon!!!! STOP nit picking people
i swear its like some people are just looking for somthing too be wrong with an ep so they can bash it later instead of seeing the good that every eyepiece on the market brings to the table
just the other day someone asked for our opinion on the supermono becasue he wanted to try it and someoone told him they were junk becasue of field curvature on the moon which is blown way out of proportion and in my opinion a very very false statment
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Mike Hosea
Postmaster
Reged: 09/24/03
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5199507 - 05/01/12 02:09 AM
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Jst like now TMB supermonos reputation is starting to get tarneshed becasue of someone mentioning a little bit of feild curvature when looking at the moon!!!! STOP nit picking people
This is the eyepieces forum. If it's not supposed to be about the nuances of eyepieces, then what's it for, endless cheerleading for your favorites? Oh...nevermind.
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Bob S.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/05
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Mike Hosea]
#5199639 - 05/01/12 08:11 AM
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Daniel, I think your need to apologize is admirable but not really necessary. For some of us, having icy white tones in our ep's is very satisfying. Early on, I tried some Radians and liked the eye relief but found them to not be aesthetically pleasing to my eye in refractors/reflectors. It tried most of the Type 1 Naglers and found them to be better but a pain with kidney beaning and other colorful abberations. I then migrated to Pentax XL's and ultimately to Pentax XW's that were uber pleasing except for the 14mm and possibly the 20mm at times due to field curvature. When the Ethos line came out, I unfortunately got a mediocre example of the new 13mm "fatter" Ethos. Someone from Nagler's astronomy club was visiting Tallahassee and was out viewing with us at a dark site and I asked him to look at a problem I was having with snap to focus of the 13mm Ethos vs. my 14mm Pentax XW. He noticed it right away as well in a premium 14.5" f/4.3 Zambuto-mirrored Newtonian I owned at the time.
Fast forward to the new Paracorr II and sub f/4 Newtonian optics. The Pentax XW's are still icy white with great eye relief and still show the most detail on planets of any of my eyepieces. However, I should never have tried a better example of an Ethos. The reason being that I now own every single stinkin' one of them and absolutely LOVE them in my fast sub f/4 Newts with the Paracorr II! The views to my eye are icy white with a wonderful FOV even with all of my scopes being able to track.
We all have individual differences in our perceptions but when you find a common thread among a number of observers and report it, that is not heresy. It is just a factual observation based on those scopes under a particular set of circumstances. I think I would call "no harm, no foul". If we cannot freely report what we experience, then what is the point of doing comparative analyses? As we say in science, "The data is the data is the data". We don't make them, we just evaluate and report our findings which to me has been a fun task over the years. Although it pains the manufacturers, the quest for the "truth" about certain products performance is a noble endeavor IMHO. Bob Schilling
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UmaDog
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/15/10
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Bob S.]
#5199649 - 05/01/12 08:23 AM
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It's more anecdote than data. It's not data because the observations haven't been done blind, in controlled circumstances. A transmission curve or a double-blind viewing test would qualify as data.
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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 10/18/06
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Mike Hosea]
#5199672 - 05/01/12 08:35 AM
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Maybe a problem is that opinions are being presented and/or accepted as facts. That what gets posted here is opinion may be obvious to some, but I don't think it is obvious to all or even most, and certainly not to the inexperienced folks who are seeking advice. Really, could there be a worse source of information for someone who has just gotten a scope, and whose 26mm plossl is not providing sharp views of the moon? I think that whacko "coffee tones" is a venal sin compared to a lot of what gets posted.
More and more I find myself talking to women at public events. They want to discuss the stars and planets and how to find them in the sky, as opposed to all of the old guys (with *BLEEP* eyesight who see all kinds of "tones") who want to talk about gear. It was easier when my sons were little and with me - women will talk to men with little kids. That's an opinion, not a fact.
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Alan French
Night Owl
Reged: 01/28/05
Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: dpwoos]
#5199709 - 05/01/12 09:01 AM
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Testing of eyepieces tends to be very subjective. Add the variables of human perception, telescopes, and observing conditions, and you have a situation where claims of having discerned the facts seem very tenuous.
One year at Winter Star Party, at least 20 years ago, there was a debate about two apochromats. One gave a rather yellowish view of Jupiter. In the other Jupiter did not have a yellowish tint. The argument was about which telescope gave the "right" view. (Eyepieces were swapped, which didn't change things, so it wasn't in the eyepiece.) So the telescope can influence what you see in the eyepiece.
Personally, the "coffee tone" description has always puzzled me, and it has always seemed an improper and exaggerated description.
Clear skies, Alan
BTW, various reflective optics did not show a yellowish tone on Jupiter.
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t.r.
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/08
Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: dpwoos]
#5199730 - 05/01/12 09:14 AM
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No apology required for reporting on what ONE SEES. I still see tone differences in eyepieces I use. No flip-flop here. Maybe someday, as my eyes age, that may change. The question really is, should that matter to anyone else? If the masses want to follow the rest of the lemmings off a cliff, so be it...you couldn't stop them anyways. I really doubt that TV sales were in any way affected by Dr.D's comments. I see the "tea tone"(thats what it really is, coffee is too dark  ) and I still have binoviewing sets of TV plossls that I'll be keeping as well as other types. When I noticed it compared to "cooler" eyepieces I didn't panic and sell them off. I discovered that on certain planets it is actually a benefit on belt detail. But for other objects or details I prefer different eyepieces. Why should this get anyones panties in a bunch? 
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Cotts
Just Wondering
Reged: 10/10/05
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: UmaDog]
#5199776 - 05/01/12 09:41 AM
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Scientific testing of the eyepiece colour phenomenon would be very easy to do. Set up a light source of precisely known colour - these are used all the time in the photography and movie-making worlds - and shine it through an eyepiece with a spectrum recorder attached. Each eyepiece will produce a graph of transmission vs wavelength.
We already do this in the astronomy hobby when we're discussing various filters. Why not run eyepieces through the same set-up?
There is no substitute for empirical data.
Dave
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turtle86
Pooh-Bah Everywhere Else
Reged: 10/09/06
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Alan French]
#5199843 - 05/01/12 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Testing of eyepieces tends to be very subjective. Add the variables of human perception, telescopes, and observing conditions, and you have a situation where claims of having discerned the facts seem very tenuous.
One year at Winter Star Party, at least 20 years ago, there was a debate about two apochromats. One gave a rather yellowish view of Jupiter. In the other Jupiter did not have a yellowish tint. The argument was about which telescope gave the "right" view. (Eyepieces were swapped, which didn't change things, so it wasn't in the eyepiece.) So the telescope can influence what you see in the eyepiece.
Personally, the "coffee tone" description has always puzzled me, and it has always seemed an improper and exaggerated description.
Clear skies, Alan
BTW, various reflective optics did not show a yellowish tone on Jupiter.
The "coffee tone" description has always puzzled me too. No eyepiece I know of has anything remotely approaching a "coffee tone." Sure, I can see a difference in tone between, for instance, the Nagler 3-6mm zoom and 6mm Ethos, but the difference is subtle--while planets had a slightly "warmer" cast in the Nagler zoom, Vega still looked white to my eyes in both EP's.
The problem is that as potentially misleading the description "coffee tone" may be, it is catchy and has unfortunately stuck as a result. I think we all want reviewers to report their personal observations without holding any punches, but I also think they have an obligation to choose their words carefully, all the more so when their opinions carry a lot of weight in the amateur community. At the same time those reading the reviews should do so with a critical eye, relying on their common sense and experience before jumping to any conclusions.
Kudos to Daniel for stepping up here.
Edited by turtle86 (05/01/12 10:34 AM)
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Mike Hosea]
#5199844 - 05/01/12 10:33 AM
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Mike H,
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When I've spent substantial time with a Baader Moon and Skyglow filter, for example, my brain has sometimes been able to convince me that its tone is "white", and then my reputedly cooler eyepieces seem warm exactly the same way that warm eyepieces seem warm when switching.
When they were on sale, I bought a pair of TV Plossl 25mm specifically for binoviewing Jupiter. However, I did not notice any improvement on belt contrast from the TV Plossls in comparison with bino pairs of BGOs or UO VTs.
I think, though, what might have been affecting the view was that I virtually always attach a Baader M&SG filter on the neck of the binoviewer. The M&SG improves contrast so obviously for Jupiter and Mars, that I often screw it on without even thinking much about it.
It's likely that whatever improvement for contrast on Jupiter that TV Plossls provide, was being similarly imparted to my other eyepieces by the M&SG filter. The edge that TV Plossls might have had for planet belts was made superfluous by the M&SG.
Given the contrast enhancement available through excellent filters such as the M&SG - and by an apodizing mask for Newt owners - is there any real advantage to TV Plossls for viewing planetary belts? I doubt it. But I suppose it would be worthwhile next Jupiter opposition to be sure to try those TV Plossls without the M&SG, and compare those views to other eyepieces with and without the filter.
Mike R
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5199852 - 05/01/12 10:39 AM
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I have noticed a "warmer" tone to TV Plossl 25mm vs Edscorp Ortho 25mm (apparent clones to UO VTs) when binoviewing the Moon without any filters. (Ironically, I always look at the Moon without the Moon & Sky Glow!) The Ortho 25mms seemed very "cool" and pure white by comparison. I preferred the "cool" view for the Moon.
IMO, if the TV eyepieces do have a "warmer" tone, it should show when observing a whitish extended object, e.g. the Moon.
Mike
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mountain monk
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/06/09
Loc: Grand Teton National Park
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Sarkikos]
#5199885 - 05/01/12 10:59 AM
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Quite admirable of you, Daniel. And it would be nice if others here were secure enough to admit mistakes, and underline that their opinions are merely opinions, no matter how firmly help.
Thanks.
Dark skies.
Jack
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RodgerHouTex
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/02/09
Loc: Houston, Texas, USA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: mountain monk]
#5199895 - 05/01/12 11:05 AM
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I bought my 5mm Radian a couple of years ago, and yes, it definately has a coffee tone to it.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: CollinofAlabama]
#5199921 - 05/01/12 11:19 AM
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Collin,
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Daniel, I wholeheartedly agree that all pre-Dellechiaie TV ep's do, in fact, have a warm-ish hue. I also believe you yourself have pointed out that on Jupiter, in particular, this can be a big optical advantage.
and
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Besides, your basic points have always been right -- the pre-Dellechiaie TVs have a warm cast and are incredibly sharp.
Does this mean that the TV eyepieces - including Plossls - from the current Ethos Era don't have the warmish hue, or that it has been toned down compared to earlier TV eyepieces? I'm curious about this, because during the last TV sale I bought a pair of TV Plossl 25mm specifically to take advantage of the warmer tone that is purported to help in viewing Jupiter.
Be careful how you answer. If TV eyepieces have lost their coffee tone, this may affect their sales negatively! 
Mike
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johnnyha
Postmaster
Reged: 11/12/06
Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Daniel Mounsey]
#5199929 - 05/01/12 11:25 AM
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Well Daniel despite your best efforts you have failed to bring down the Televue empire.
In fact I wonder if in some small way you are responsible for the incredible cool tone of the Ethos and Delos line?  I'd say these lines have revitalized Televue.
Now if we can just figure who was the guy who started the whole "Pentax XW 14 and 20 have field curvature" thing... 
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pstarr
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/17/04
Loc: NE Ohio
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: RodgerHouTex]
#5199955 - 05/01/12 11:38 AM
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I bought my 5mm Radian a couple of years ago, and yes, it definately has a coffee tone to it.
Oh oh, here we go again. Mine is more like beer.
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Alan French
Night Owl
Reged: 01/28/05
Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: RodgerHouTex]
#5199960 - 05/01/12 11:41 AM
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I understand coatings could impart a "warm" (more yellow) or "cool" tone (more blue), but can not envision any way to impart anything that might be described as "coffee" toned.
Clear skies, Alan
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BillP
Postmaster
Reged: 11/26/06
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Alan French]
#5199993 - 05/01/12 11:58 AM
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I understand coatings could impart a "warm" (more yellow) or "cool" tone (more blue), but can not envision any way to impart anything that might be described as "coffee" toned.
Clear skies, Alan
People do not see colors the same. A quick look over in the sketching forum brings this out very well...we all see the same planet, yet we all show its color differently. Historical records on colorful doubles are the same, same doubles are described in multitudes of differing colors even though they have not changed spectra.
I do see tonal variations on TV eyepieces, but it is not uniformly across all of them. So some lines and some focal lengths show a different tonal characteristic than others. And the tonal variation (or existence) is not limited to TV. The import point being though, IMO, that unless one does a side-by-side, usually subtle enough to not notice on its own.
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Mike Hosea
Postmaster
Reged: 09/24/03
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: Alan French]
#5200007 - 05/01/12 12:09 PM
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I understand coatings could impart a "warm" (more yellow) or "cool" tone (more blue), but can not envision any way to impart anything that might be described as "coffee" toned.
Agree. Perhaps we have some seriously defective observers or eyepieces out there, or both, but most likely this is simply a defective description. Whenever somebody attempts to sell you this description, send it back and get another one.
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planet earth
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/07/10
Loc: Ontario
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Re: A personal apology to Televue
[Re: BillP]
#5200009 - 05/01/12 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I understand coatings could impart a "warm" (more yellow) or "cool" tone (more blue), but can not envision any way to impart anything that might be described as "coffee" toned.
Clear skies, Alan
People do not see colors the same. A quick look over in the sketching forum brings this out very well...we all see the same planet, yet we all show its color differently. Historical records on colorful doubles are the same, same doubles are described in multitudes of differing colors even though they have not changed spectra.
I do see tonal variations on TV eyepieces, but it is not uniformly across all of them. So some lines and some focal lengths show a different tonal characteristic than others. And the tonal variation (or existence) is not limited to TV. The import point being though, IMO, that unless one does a side-by-side, usually subtle enough to not notice on its own.
Let's not forget about the TV barlows, can they warm up a cooler tone eyepiece?
Ah, so many possibilities. 
Clear Skies
Sam
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