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Rich N
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Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned?
      #520252 - 07/17/05 08:09 PM

From the experience of some of my friends and reading this forum it sounds as if most of the modeatly priced binoculars used for astronomy are out of collimation (not aligned) when they come new from the store. Is this correct?

Rich

Edited by Rich N (07/17/05 08:15 PM)


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werewolf6977
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520312 - 07/17/05 09:03 PM

Probly has to do with dearth of QC at that price level. I was lucky, my 15X70 Celestrons are spot on.

--------------------
Pete
6" Apogee/LXD55 - "The Beast"
Starhopper 6" Dob - "Shiva"
Spaceprobe 130 EQ - "Spacey"
Bushnell Fatboy
The Abomination
Sun Pak Pro 7500 Platinum Edition
10X25 Bushnell Camo Roofies
7X35 Tasco Classic Plastic (good views though)
7X42 Tasco Rare Bird
10X50 Nikon Actions (Type 7)
15X70 Skymasters - "DroolMeisters"
One ratty old IBM 600E LapTop


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EdZModerator
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520313 - 07/17/05 09:04 PM

This exact same question was asked only several days ago here. So you're second in line.

Same answer though.

This is incorrect hearsay.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Rich N
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: EdZ]
      #520318 - 07/17/05 09:07 PM

Ok, I'm surprised. It sounds as if most 80mm and 100mm binoculars under $800 are almost always a bit out of alignment.

Rich


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Erik D
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520326 - 07/17/05 09:13 PM

I don't have first hand experience with the sub $100 15X70s from Celectron or Barska but my Oberwerk 12X60( $109) and Burgess 20X80 LW($149) arrived in perferfect collimation. Paying for higher priced Japanese astro binos doesn't mean you'll receive perfect optics either. I recall one forumn member had to return 2 pairs of Fuji 16X70 before he was satisfied. Others reported problem with Miyauchiis selling for over $1k.

I'd feel comfortable ordering moderate priced Chinese binos from Oberwerk again because of their excellent customer service. Kevin B sends a replacement pair with UPS call tag if you have a problem.

Erik D


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Rich N
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Erik D]
      #520335 - 07/17/05 09:16 PM

I should have said 80mm and larger, inexpensive astro binoculars.

Rich


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EdZModerator
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520342 - 07/17/05 09:20 PM

I think this is unsupported hearsay. I don't think that there is any set or subset to look at. It's a poor statement for someone to make. It can't be backed up at all.

edz

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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Rich N
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: EdZ]
      #520373 - 07/17/05 09:53 PM

Quote:

I think this is unsupported hearsay. I don't think that there is any set or subset to look at. It's a poor statement for someone to make. It can't be backed up at all.

edz




Why not try and develope some data? Create a poll asking yes or no if your 80mm to 100mm binocular came correctly aligned new from the store?

Rich
edz




Edited by Rich N (07/17/05 09:54 PM)


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EdZModerator
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520378 - 07/17/05 09:57 PM

Or,

you could collect a series of data from owner's reviews and give us the results to support the statement.

I don't want to put up a survey to answer question to unsupported hearsay.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Rich N
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: EdZ]
      #520382 - 07/17/05 10:01 PM

Quote:

Or,

you could collect a series of data from owner's reviews and give us the results to support the statement.

I don't want to put up a survey to answer question to unsupported hearsay.

edz




User reports are largely unsupported hearsay. Why do you think asking the question of readers of this forum is likely to give less accurate results than user reports? One benefit of the poll you would likely get more users responding.

It is also hard finding all the brief reports written on the forum. A poll would put the information is a nice compact format.

Rich


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EdZModerator
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520406 - 07/17/05 10:20 PM

see my pm

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Alby
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: EdZ]
      #520422 - 07/17/05 10:41 PM

Hello;

I'm all for the survey. However from what I've read here at CN, my sense of things are that most binocs are collimated!

My more than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!

Wishing you all the best collimation:)

Alby

--------------------
Alby

Scoping Savant
10in LX200 Classic SCT
Oberwerk BT 100 45
7x50 USSR Binocs
Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 binocs

Edited by Alby (07/17/05 10:55 PM)


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brocknroller
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520430 - 07/17/05 10:51 PM

Rich,

Seems like the astro bin market falls sharply into two categories: "modestly priced" bins and expensive bins (e.g., Obies vs. Fujis, Burgess vs. Zeiss, Celestron vs. Miyauchi). If you buy inexpensive astro bins and want good optics, you have to expect some compromises, and from my personal experience and the experience of others I know or have read about, the compromise is with the binocular mechanics, including the prism holders. Also, large astro bins have longer barrels that are more likely to be "flexed" from handling than small aperture bins, which could affect the collimation, hence why astro bins over 70mm often come with barrel braces.

Given this, it shouldn't be surprising that Chinese astro bins arrive out of collimation more often than higher cost Japanese and German bins. It's not "hearsay", as I hope the posts to this thread will confirm. I had two Obies, one new, one used (bought from a reputable used bin dealer, who collimated them before he shipped them, packed them well, marked the package FRAGILE, and sent it Priority Mail, which is usually safer than the United Pulverizing Service). Both Obies arrived out of collimation.

I have a friend who bought FIVE new Oberwerks (one was a replacement), and he also bought one used -- five out of the six arrived miscollimated. I know another buyer who bought a new Obie 10X60 Mariner, which look like tanks, and yet arrived miscollimated.

Oberwerk binoculars are hand checked before shipping, I even saw Kevin's initials on the box of new Obies I ordered. So apparently the miscollimation issues are not due to lack of quality control but rather from Obies being suspectible to being bumped out of alignment from "shipping and [mis]handling." This also means that the user has to handle the binoculars more carefully than he would a more hardily-built astro bin such as a mil-spec Fuji.

Oberwerk stands behind their products, they have a Webpage devoted to collimating them (I don't think any other dealer has this, so that tells you something), and Kevin will walk you through the adjustments via phone if necessary. Consequently, the miscollimation issue is something that most buyers seem willing to accept as a trade-off for affordable prices and good optics. Without dealers like Oberwerk, Burgess, and Celestron, bioncular astronomers would be forced to buy high-priced Japanese and German bins (or buy smaller aperture bins they could afford like Nikon AEs, Minolta Activas, etc.).

While I greatly appreciate moderately-priced astro bins and those who design them, I would like to see new lines of moderately priced astro bins that have good optics AND good mechanics -- not only sturdier prism holders, but better eyecups, diopter adjustments, focusers, etc.

--------------------
Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."

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"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."



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Joe Ogiba
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Alby]
      #520437 - 07/17/05 10:54 PM

Quote:

My less than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!




$1,800 or $800 ?

--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.


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Joad
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #520444 - 07/17/05 10:59 PM

Let's not forget the military design of the Oberwerk triplet 100mm series. Whether one is considering the original miltary version with the turret oculars or the newest 45° fork-mounted unit, or anything in between, these (very heavy) instruments house their optics in one solid block of aluminum and so do not have collimation problems while still being substantially less expensive than the high-priced competition. And they also have very good glass.

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Joad
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #520446 - 07/17/05 11:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My less than $800 BT 100 45s are AOK!




$1,800 or $800 ?




Hey, I noticed that too! If it's less than $800, I really don't want to know about it!


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BarrySimon615
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Joad]
      #520483 - 07/17/05 11:29 PM

My comments regarding polls - Very few participate in them so assuming that some do participate, the sample would be so small as to be somewhat meaningless. My comment on polls is as a direct reflection of polls that I have both created and participate in. I am the founder/owner/moderator or just moderator of 5 Yahoo Group forums related in some way to astronomy. Collectively these 5 groups total over 2000 members. Poll participation in the larger groups, BinocularAstronomy, with 1300+ members and UnitronTelescopes or AstrophotographyCameraLenses with over 300 members each is typically something between 10 and 20 members for each poll. Hence, poll results represent too small a subsection of the membership to tell you much more than which 10 to 20 members are willing to take the time to participate in a poll.

Having said that, let me comment on my own experience with binoculars having purchased better than 40 pair of binoculars new over the past 25 or so years. Most come into my possession collimated; of the ones that I purchased new, all Japanese made binoculars were collimated. Several pair of Chinese made binoculars purchased by me for me or by me as a prize for the star party that I direct were uncollimated. One other pair of binoculars (actually two pair), the Mark I version of the Chinese clone of the Miyauchi binoculars and the Mark II version of the same binoculars were not collimated. The owner/distributor of these told me on the phone that he purposely recollimated the Mark II version as the Chinese manufacturer put too much stress (overtightened the adjustments) so that they would hold collimation better. He felt too much tension was on the components so he readjusted everything himself releaving some of the tension. He felt they would still hold collimation. They did not, or he did not know what a good collimation was (is). I am really not sure, in any event, they were not collimated.

In general I would agree with the statement that lower end binoculars have a better chance of being received uncollimated because -

1) The component parts will more easily slip out of collimation.

2) They were not collimated properly to begin with.

Barry Simon


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Rich N
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: BarrySimon615]
      #520534 - 07/18/05 12:52 AM

Thanks Barry. It is always surprising what a small percentage of people post to forums, newsgroups or email lists.

If reasonably good data can be gathered about alignment/collimation I think it is doing a service to binocular buyers. If there is a 30% chance you will need to collimate the binocular it is well worth knowing before you buy.

Rich


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Alby
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? new [Re: Rich N]
      #520667 - 07/18/05 05:14 AM

Joe/Joad;

I corrected my mistake......:)

More not less!

Alby

--------------------
Alby

Scoping Savant
10in LX200 Classic SCT
Oberwerk BT 100 45
7x50 USSR Binocs
Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 binocs


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EdZModerator
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Re: Modestly priced astro binos come not aligned? [Re: Rich N]
      #520727 - 07/18/05 07:43 AM

I would say most of my 30 binoculars arrived well within the tolerances of alignment. So my experience does not agree with the post statement.

I would also say some of my premium binoculars arrived out of tollerance.

I would say the incidence of my Japanese binoculars out of tollerance was about equal to the incidence of Chinese binoculars that are out.

I would also say that almost every one of these binoculars was probably within the allowable tollerance limits when it arrived. I can think of one or two over the years that were really bad.

People have different levels of tollerance for the accepted allowable mechanical tollerances. About a third of all my binoculars have never been (alignment) touched since I've owned them. About a third have been adjusted to reach a higher level of precision. My personal level of tollerance is stricter than the standard allowable limits of accepted mechanical tollerances.

See the links on collimation standards to see the allowable tollerances.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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