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skyjim
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/13/07
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: mikey cee]
#5227275 - 05/17/12 07:05 PM
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As they say in little Italy "Thats Ah Nice", long live achro's! Jim
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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: JimP]
#5228052 - 05/18/12 10:06 AM
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I have to agree with you Mike. My good friend who has observed through more telescopes than I can count and who owns a very nice C8 says he has never looked through a C14 that was better on the Moon and Planets visually than any 8" apo he looked through. As far as contrast and CO it is quite clear that CO reduces contrast. Period! Talk to Roland Christen about it. I have. P.S. my friend told me he bought and sold about 50 Cesestron 8s to finally get one that he considers optically excellent. End of story.
You are welcome to believe what you will. I know what I believe is true.
Let's move on.
Jim
Obstructions reduce contrast, it is a diffraction effect... The amount depends on the spacial separation, often called frequency.
The outer obstruction, (the aperture) has a much greater effect than an inner, ( central) . The outer obstruction determines the size of the disk structure which determines the resolveable details, the inner determines the smearing by the diffraction rings.
Jon
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Eddgie
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/01/06
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5228534 - 05/18/12 03:26 PM Attachment (43 downloads)
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In fact, I agree that an 8" APO has contrast transfer that is about the same as a C14 at the mid and low frequencies, but at the high frequencies (smallest detai) the C14 will prevail.
This is what MTF is all about. It tells you how much contrast will be preserved from the target.
But this fits exactly into what the OP asked, thought in this case, the answer is glaringly apparent.
Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
Well, when an 8" APO costs far far far more than most of us could ever consider spending on a telescope.
In that case, the question could be reversed to ask "why spend $20,000 on a large refractor that needs a 250 pound mount or permanant pier when you can get about the same planetary performacne from a $4500 SCT???
Included is an MTF plot. The red line shows the contrast transfer of an unobstructed 14" aperture.
The red dashed line shows an MTF plot for a C14 with 32% obstruction and I even threw in 1/8th wave of spherical abberation (about the amount mine has).
The green line represents a perfect 200mm refractor.
Notice that for very large detail, the C14 looses only a couple of percent of contrast as compared to the 8" scope.
For example, at the about .15 fs/max, the 8" APO has lost 30% of the contrast from the target. The C14 is loosing about 33% at the target. A difference of 3% is detectable by the scotopic eye (and the camera), but not by the mesoptic or scotopic eye. For these modes, the contrast has to differ by about 5% to 15% depending on the observer. For visual use, these two instruments would appear quite similar in the low frequency part of the size spectrum.
When the detail size gets past about .3 of the fs/max, the C14 pulls smoothy ahead.
So, while it may not have exactly as much contrast tranfer as the 8" APO does for very large details, it will be superrior for smaller details, and indeed will show the finest details with more contrast than even the perfect 8" APO.
The eye often cannot reallly see these fine details though, but the camera can, and that is why you see such amazing planetary images taken with C14s.
But the bottom line here is that most of us simply can't afford large refractors, and once again, back to the OPs post, for many, the answew is that depending on what you want to look at, a big SCT may indeed be not only a cheaper choice, but a better choice.
I have a super high quality 6" APO, but it is no match for a C14 on planets.
An 8" APO might be, but I lack the $30,000 to buy the scope and build the observatory that it would require.
Anyway, here is the MTF plot. I believe you friend. An 8" APO will give about the same performacne as a good C14 on planets.
Rather than ask which one you would prefer, let me ask you which one you could afford.
Edited by Eddgie (05/18/12 03:46 PM)
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Yu Gu
member
Reged: 06/18/06
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Eddgie]
#5228576 - 05/18/12 03:50 PM
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Everything looks good on paper, until inserting those trival terms such as figure, thermal, and seeing conditions into the equation...
Quote:
In fact, I agree that an 8" APO has contrast transfer that is about the same as a C14 at the mid and low frequencies, but at the high frequencies (smallest detai) the C14 will prevail.
This is what MTF is all about. It tells you how much contrast will be preserved from the target.
But this fits exactly into what the OP asked, thought in this case, the answer is glaringly apparent.
Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
Well, when an 8" APO costs far far far more than most of us could ever consider spending on a telescope.
In that case, the question could be reversed to ask "why spend $20,000 on a large refractor that needs a 250 pound mount or permanant pier when you can get about the same planetary performacne from a $4500 SCT???
Included is an MTF plot. The red line shows the contrast transfer of an unobstructed 14" aperture.
The red dashed line shows an MTF plot for a C14 with 32% obstruction and I even threw in 1/8th wave of spherical abberation (about the amount mine has).
The green line represents a perfect 200mm refractor.
Notice that for very large detail, the C14 looses only a couple of percent of contrast as compared to the 8" scope.
For example, at the about .15 fs/max, the 8" APO has lost 30% of the contrast from the target. The C14 is loosing about 33% at the target. A difference of 3% is detectable by the scotopic eye (and the camera), but not by the mesoptic or scotopic eye. For these modes, the contrast has to differ by about 5% to 15% depending on the observer. For visual use, these two instruments would appear quite similar in the low frequency part of the size spectrum.
When the detail size gets past about .3 of the fs/max, the C14 pulls smoothy ahead.
So, while it may not have exactly as much contrast tranfer as the 8" APO does for very large details, it will be superrior for smaller details, and indeed will show the finest details with more contrast than even the perfect 8" APO.
The eye often cannot reallly see these fine details though, but the camera can, and that is why you see such amazing planetary images taken with C14s.
But the bottom line here is that most of us simply can't afford large refractors, and once again, back to the OPs post, for many, the answew is that depending on what you want to look at, a big SCT may indeed be not only a cheaper choice, but a better choice.
I have a super high quality 6" APO, but it is no match for a C14 on planets.
An 8" APO might be, but I lack the $30,000 to buy the scope and build the observatory that it would require.
Anyway, here is the MTF plot. I believe you friend. An 8" APO will give about the same performacne as a good C14 on planets.
Rather than ask which one you would prefer, let me ask you which one you could afford.
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tonyt
sage
Reged: 09/02/09
Loc: Australia
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Yu Gu]
#5228798 - 05/18/12 07:30 PM
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I have to spend many hours in the dark reassuring my anxiety-ridden 8" SCT that he's not going to get sold in favour of my 4" apo. I tell him quietly that although she's better looking he still goes deeper (have to whisper so she doesn't have a hissy fit). I do get a bit tired of them bickering sometimes though - wish they could just get along.
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: tonyt]
#5229269 - 05/19/12 07:44 AM
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I have to spend many hours in the dark reassuring my anxiety-ridden 8" SCT that he's not going to get sold in favour of my 4" apo. I tell him quietly that although she's better looking he still goes deeper (have to whisper so she doesn't have a hissy fit). I do get a bit tired of them bickering sometimes though - wish they could just get along.

My various telescopes all get along. They all understand that I love them dearly for what they are and that each one is unique and has specific advantages and disadvantages so I will give each one attention when it is appropriate.
The 4 inch apo is not jealous of the 16 inch or the 25 inch because it knows it can show big chunks of sky and that it is just such an easy scope. The 10 inch knows it has a place as easy to move and quick to cool even though the two 12.5 inchers pack more punch...
With telescopes it's "this and that", not "this or that". One wants that apo refractor and a larger SCT or Newtonian.
Jon
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Eddgie
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/01/06
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Yu Gu]
#5229439 - 05/19/12 10:14 AM
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Everything looks good on paper, until inserting those trival terms such as figure, thermal, and seeing conditions into the equation...
About 4 months ago, I resolved Osiris and Galileo Regio on Ganymede in the C14. I didn't just see these as "Albedo features." I saw them as distinct shapes with defined edges in the C14.
I have observerd Ganymede many times with large (6") refractors, and never seen either feature as more than albedo shading.
I have seen Albedo features on Neptune in the C14. Not a hint in either 6" APO I have owned.
The "Paper" matches my observing experience almost exactly. I have owned perhaps 40 telescopes, and for extended targets, I would rank the performance almost 100% to the amount of clear aperture each scope provided (dismissing a couple of scopes that were outright dogs).
In just about every case, the scope with the most clear aperture would provide the most detail on extended targets.
I own a 6" APO and I own a C14. There has never been a night where I have seen more detail on an extended target in the 6" APO than in the C14, and on most nights, with a modest amount of patience, I will easily see more in the C14. And on many summer nights, I see much more in the C14
This includes seeing, optical figure (and my C14 has quite fine optics by the way) and thermal issues which by the way, my 6" APO is not immune to, taking as much a 90 mintes to fully cool.
These are often present arguments as to why refractors are better, but when the dust settles, you are still left with a small apeture that has contrast loss as a hard physical limit of the diffraction caused by the aperture itself. This never goes away, while thermal and seeing is transient.
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Eddgie]
#5229571 - 05/19/12 11:59 AM
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"See" doesn't tell the whole story. You can put dilation eye drops in your eyes and "see" the olive tree in your back yard. It will be soft and mushy, but you can certainly see the tree and the specific features. You can then let the drops clear your system, put on your driving glasses and "see" the olive tree sharply etched with much crisper-defined details. The same stuff is there, but the manner in which it is rendered is different.
In my experience that is where the commercial SCT sags. It's a great light collector. It's just not optimal in handling that light after it's collected it and relative image quality is what suffers. Sure, a 6" aperture - of any design - doesn't have the light grasp or resolution to nab certain features that a 14" aperture can nab. But put two 14" apertures of different designs side by side, and if one of them is an SCT, almost certainly the other design will show a better quality image and a crisper rendering of what detail is visible.
The argument isn't that you can see things in a 6" refractor that you can't see in a 14" SCT. Rather, the argument is that you can see more in a 6" refractor than in a 6" to 8" SCT and what you can see in the 6" refractor will often be better rendered (sharper, crisper, snappier) than in a 9" to 14" SCT.
I can only speak of what I've seen; I've never observed with your C14. I have observed with my own C11 and with another local astronomers C14 years ago. But that's how these types instruments behave when I've used them. I think that's where "in the field" becomes more relevant than "on paper". In other words, text book charts and graphs don't tell the whole story and, in fact, don't tell some really important parts of the story.
Regards,
Jim
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bobhen
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/25/05
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Eddgie]
#5229595 - 05/19/12 12:20 PM
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Everything looks good on paper, until inserting those trival terms such as figure, thermal, and seeing conditions into the equation...
About 4 months ago, I resolved Osiris and Galileo Regio on Ganymede in the C14. I didn't just see these as "Albedo features." I saw them as distinct shapes with defined edges in the C14.
I have observerd Ganymede many times with large (6") refractors, and never seen either feature as more than albedo shading.
I have seen Albedo features on Neptune in the C14. Not a hint in either 6" APO I have owned.
The "Paper" matches my observing experience almost exactly. I have owned perhaps 40 telescopes, and for extended targets, I would rank the performance almost 100% to the amount of clear aperture each scope provided (dismissing a couple of scopes that were outright dogs).
In just about every case, the scope with the most clear aperture would provide the most detail on extended targets.
I own a 6" APO and I own a C14. There has never been a night where I have seen more detail on an extended target in the 6" APO than in the C14, and on most nights, with a modest amount of patience, I will easily see more in the C14. And on many summer nights, I see much more in the C14
This includes seeing, optical figure (and my C14 has quite fine optics by the way) and thermal issues which by the way, my 6" APO is not immune to, taking as much a 90 mintes to fully cool.
These are often present arguments as to why refractors are better, but when the dust settles, you are still left with a small apeture that has contrast loss as a hard physical limit of the diffraction caused by the aperture itself. This never goes away, while thermal and seeing is transient.
Why are you comparing a 14-inch telescope with a 6-inch telescope and expecting the much smaller 6 to outdo the 14?
You need to put up at least a 7-inch apo (which of course is still HALF the aperture against a C14). There is exactly such a comparison right here on CN in the review section. On Mr. Yoshida’s list of planetary telescopes - you can see in that list that there are 5, different 6-inch Apos ahead of the C11. I think if we look at that list and then the review of the 7-inch refractor versus the C14 we can extrapolate that it would take a 7.5-inch refractor and above to depose of the C14 when it comes to planetary performance.
If you want to bring up cost (when comparing against a refractor) the question of why (for visual) would anyone chose a C14 when a value Dobsonian from Orion would deliver the same performance in the eyepiece for thousands less must be asked – you could even purchase a Zambuto mirror for the vale Dob and end up with better visual performance and still save some cash.
If your 6-inch refractor takes 90-minutes to cool, how long does it take your C14 under the same conditions?
Bob
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Scott in NC
Mad Hatter
   
Reged: 03/05/05
Loc: NC
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5229642 - 05/19/12 12:51 PM
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With telescopes it's "this and that", not "this or that". One wants that apo refractor and a larger SCT or Newtonian.
Jon
How true that is! Although sometimes it's more like "this and that, and that, AND that, AND..."
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
   
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Eddgie]
#5229769 - 05/19/12 02:33 PM
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Eddgie,
I respect your contributions to the forums very much. You always take time to attempt to make clear your position on things and post your supporting facts. Here's the thing... sometimes it doesn't add up when stacked against practical experience. It's like saying that a 1/4 wave diffraction limited 12" scope will show you everything equally as well as a Mewlon 300 at a 1/10th wave. If the conditions are right, IME, the Mewlon will out perform the 1/4 wave scope. Why is that? Does that mean a 1/4 wave scope really doesn't equate to a diffraction limited optic?
Folks pay 50k for a 16" RCOS when they can get a 17" Planewave at 22K, why? Because the RCOS mirror is 1/40th wave and the Planewave is 1/4? Are we all nuts? Or does a better optic, be it better do to no obstruction or better figure, really make a difference in practice? It's the same reason folks pay more for an AP or TEC than a diffraction limited mass produced instrument. On paper it shouldn't matter, in practicality - it does.
BTW, your sample vintage AP is NOT the best sample to make a comparison against. My AP160EDF, TEC180FL et al, would give your C14 a planetary run, for it's money.
I've no doubt however, you can take me any day of the week - with a slide rule. 
Joe
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Bongo123
sage
Reged: 06/19/10
Loc: Telescope Purgatory
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5229860 - 05/19/12 03:36 PM
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Would it be a fair statement to compare a C5SCT to a 4' refractor ? Consider the central obstruction at 20% subtracted from the SCT's main mirror.
Don
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David Pavlich
Transmographied
   
Reged: 05/18/05
Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: bobhen]
#5229987 - 05/19/12 05:01 PM
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Everything looks good on paper, until inserting those trival terms such as figure, thermal, and seeing conditions into the equation...
About 4 months ago, I resolved Osiris and Galileo Regio on Ganymede in the C14. I didn't just see these as "Albedo features." I saw them as distinct shapes with defined edges in the C14.
I have observerd Ganymede many times with large (6") refractors, and never seen either feature as more than albedo shading.
I have seen Albedo features on Neptune in the C14. Not a hint in either 6" APO I have owned.
The "Paper" matches my observing experience almost exactly. I have owned perhaps 40 telescopes, and for extended targets, I would rank the performance almost 100% to the amount of clear aperture each scope provided (dismissing a couple of scopes that were outright dogs).
In just about every case, the scope with the most clear aperture would provide the most detail on extended targets.
I own a 6" APO and I own a C14. There has never been a night where I have seen more detail on an extended target in the 6" APO than in the C14, and on most nights, with a modest amount of patience, I will easily see more in the C14. And on many summer nights, I see much more in the C14
This includes seeing, optical figure (and my C14 has quite fine optics by the way) and thermal issues which by the way, my 6" APO is not immune to, taking as much a 90 mintes to fully cool.
These are often present arguments as to why refractors are better, but when the dust settles, you are still left with a small apeture that has contrast loss as a hard physical limit of the diffraction caused by the aperture itself. This never goes away, while thermal and seeing is transient.
Why are you comparing a 14-inch telescope with a 6-inch telescope and expecting the much smaller 6 to outdo the 14?
Bob
Ed does this comparison quite frequently because it is a common practice here to compare off the shelf SCs to hand crafted apochromatic refractors. And it's always about planets. I would venture a guess that if someone decided to hand figure a 14" SC's primary and secondary mirrors and made the perfect corrector, it would be an extraordinary telescope and would be a good one to compare to the big APs, Taks and TECs. Problem is, nobody would buy it because it would be uber expensive.
But the off the shelf/hand figured comparison will go on ad infinitum. And don't mention deep sky stuff. 
David
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: bobhen]
#5230218 - 05/19/12 08:49 PM
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Why are you comparing a 14-inch telescope with a 6-inch telescope and expecting the much smaller 6 to outdo the 14?
I think that is what this thread is about... Look at the title of the thread. A new C-14 OTA is about $4000, definitely less expensive than any 6 inch apo.
So... That's the reason to buy the larger but still less expensive C-14, it simply outperforms the 6 inch apo.
Jon
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Starhawk
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/16/08
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5230737 - 05/20/12 10:47 AM
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Eddgie, that's good to know. Since your 6" AP must be chafing your hide every time it goes outside, you can ship it to me for safekeeping and you can enjoy the superior contrast and image quality of your C8 and C14 without that Inferior 6" monstrosity, a veritable under-scope, lurking in the edges if your consciousness.
-Rich
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gnowellsct
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/24/09
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: jmiele]
#5230910 - 05/20/12 12:49 PM
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Eddgie,
BTW, your sample vintage AP is NOT the best sample to make a comparison against. My AP160EDF, TEC180FL et al, would give your C14 a planetary run, for it's money.
I've no doubt however, you can take me any day of the week - with a slide rule. 
Joe
Ah, so now it's this apo is better than that apo, even though made by the same company; yet variation in quality among SCTs is considered bad, and people make conclusions about the entire design based on whatever vintage model they happen to have looked through. So: a mid 1980s Halley C14 vs a brand new AP which is "the way to go" even though it isn't actually available except on a strictly rationed basis.
Hmmm....
GN
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
   
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: gnowellsct]
#5230965 - 05/20/12 01:34 PM
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George,
My comments to Eddgie were tongue-in-cheek. The point being that IMO/IME Roland has always made some of the finest color corrected instruments given the period. Technology and materials have changed and IMO, so has the definition of both "diffraction limited" and "Apo".
Even Roland will tell you his older scopes don't compare to his and others (He has stated Takahashi and TEC) by todays standards, in these areas.
As always here at CN, we have round and round discussion with passion flowing and little context. It matters WHAT actual instrument you compare to another. Not only by type/vintage/model....but right down to the actual sample. If we don't accept that fact, it's all just here-say and conjecture.
Without context....there is little point to discussions such as these. That was my point..not, my scopes better than yours/his. I may however, have done a poor job (again), of making that clear. Sorry for any confusion..
Joe
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gnowellsct
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/24/09
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: jmiele]
#5231099 - 05/20/12 03:12 PM
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George,
My comments to Eddgie were tongue-in-cheek. The point being that IMO/IME Roland has always made some of the finest color corrected instruments given the period. Technology and materials have changed and IMO, so has the definition of both "diffraction limited" and "Apo". Joe
FWIW SCT technology has also changed. Celestron has changed the glass in its corrector plates and employed new coatings. The production process was altered to eliminate print through. The Edge series addressed some of the aberrations that most affect photography and made the instruments able to be used in short fl applications. There have been other applications.
Does anyone seriously mean that inch per inch SCTs are better? That has *never* been the issue. It's always a question of getting more inches to make up for the difference in design, for less outlay.
I really think however that the real reason this issue comes up more often is that the SCT and refractor compete for spaces on the same type of mounts. Once you've decided you like GEMs only a small minority (myself included) will mount a Newt on a GEM. Most people are going to go with either a refractor an SCT.
But in the end many of us have opted for dual use option. The reason for this is simple: the cost of an SCT being a fraction of that of an apo, keeping an SCT around as a light bucket is a relatively cheap option.
regards Greg N
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
   
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: gnowellsct]
#5231111 - 05/20/12 03:21 PM
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George, I don't disagree with what you said. I do however think a new video is in order. I need to see you viewing through a Eq mounted Newt in the 10-12" range. While the high performance of some Newt scopes is appetizing, the concept of a ladder and leaning over an Eq mount is frightening to me. 
Joe
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: Why a refractor over a larger SCT at less cost?
[Re: jmiele]
#5231333 - 05/20/12 06:06 PM
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George, I don't disagree with what you said. I do however think a new video is in order. I need to see you viewing through a Eq mounted Newt in the 10-12" range. While the high performance of some Newt scopes is appetizing, the concept of a ladder and leaning over an Eq mount is frightening to me. 
Joe
Joe
I used to be aprehensive about using a ladder while viewing but I soon discovered that while a ladder represents a certain added effort, my concerns about being comfortable and it being awkward were ill-founded. With the right GEM mount and good set of rotating rings, it is quite enjoyable.
Few modern GEMs are designed for a Newtonian, getting the mount low enough without tangling with the tripod legs is important so a pier is a reasonable choice. A larger newt on a GEM is not for everyone but it does offer the opportunity to enjoy a high quality no compromise 10-12.5 inch scope without the hassle of a big refractor or the expensive of a premium MAK.
Jon
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