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curiosidad
sage
Reged: 06/09/11
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Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
#5225148 - 05/16/12 01:28 PM
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Hello, There is much difference in the comfort of observation between binocular eyepieces at 45 degrees and one with them at 90 degrees? What is your experience in this regard? I personally find very annoying for a long time observation with a binocular straight .. Best
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Zdee
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/20/10
Loc: North Carolina, USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: curiosidad]
#5225216 - 05/16/12 02:00 PM
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It depends on what you're trying to observe.
If your target is more than 45 degrees or so above the horizon, a 90 degree diagonal makes for more "convenient" viewing.
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KennyJ
The British Flash
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Zdee]
#5225280 - 05/16/12 02:41 PM
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Most telescopes are designed for looking at night sky objects, and from what I've seen, the great majority of them feature 90 degree angled viewing.
There could well be a good reason for that.
Kenny
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Zdee]
#5225281 - 05/16/12 02:42 PM
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It is easier to find a 45° binocular than a 90° one.
That said, a 90° is going to be better as you get higher in the sky, but a tall tripod/mount setup can take care of much of the difference if you have a 45° unit.
A 45° binocular is more versatile, however, and works just fine for terrestrial viewing. 90° isn't as useful for that.
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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/18/06
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: curiosidad]
#5225347 - 05/16/12 03:23 PM
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I have occasionally used telescopes with 45-degree diagonals. I find them quite annoying -- strongly prefer 90 degrees for astronomical use.
However, 45-degree units are considerably easier to aim for terrestrial use.
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edwincjones
Close Enough
   
Reged: 04/10/04
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Joad]
#5225463 - 05/16/12 04:39 PM
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It is easier to find a 45° binocular than a 90° one.
That said, a 90° is going to be better as you get higher in the sky, but a tall tripod/mount setup can take care of much of the difference if you have a 45° unit.
A 45° binocular is more versatile, however, and works just fine for terrestrial viewing. 90° isn't as useful for that.
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Rich V.
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/02/05
Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada, USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: edwincjones]
#5225587 - 05/16/12 05:36 PM
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While I always use my telescopes with a 90° diagonal, my 45° binoculars are quite comfortable across a wide range of sky and I rarely wish they were 90°.
Much of what I view seems to fall between approx. 30° and 75° in elevation and I don't feel any neck discomfort with my head pointed in the range of -15° to +30° on those targets. Even at zenith, my neck is only tilted 45° and I can easily live with that. Of course, if you have neck problems causing reduced mobility, then 90° binos could be a better choice for you.
If an interesting area of the sky is at zenith, an hour's wait or so will put it at a better viewing angle. I just pass the time looking at areas that present themselves better at the moment.
Having a mount with a geared adjustable height center column and/or adjustable height observing chair makes the choice of 45/90° pretty much a non-issue, IMO. Either option is much easier to mount and view through than a conventional straight-through binocular of similar size.
I enjoy watching moonrise and moonset behind the mountain ranges on either side of my location. Seeing the Moon slipping behind the silhouettes of rocky ridges and pine trees is always enjoyable to me. 45° oculars make this easy!
Rich
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charen
Pooh-Bah
  
Reged: 05/28/05
Loc: New Zealand
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Rich V.]
#5225630 - 05/16/12 06:04 PM
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Ditto re. The geared crank mount. I have the standard Oberwerk 45/100 BT which optically is impressive. However the main negative is adjusting the leg's to suit my viewing angles. The 45 degree EP certainly reduces neck strain and makes viewing far more enjoyable - however adjusting the legs, in the dark, is at times difficult and tedious and the BT 45/100 is not ‘lightweight’ - several times it has almost tipped over. A crank mount would improve the ease of use dramatically and if it’s a 45 degree or 90 degree EP would be a secondary issue.
Chris
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GamesForOne
sage
Reged: 09/29/09
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: charen]
#5225690 - 05/16/12 06:44 PM
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I think 90º is preferred for astronomical applications, however there are few 90º models that have tested with a clear aperture approaching 100%. The only one that I recall that has been verified in this group is the Garrett 70mm F/6.2 90º Mk II. Others are significantly less aperture than advertised.
I have the 45º APM ED100 and it works comfortably for me up to about 75 degrees. Above that the neck tilt and viewing position can get uncomfortable. In either case, a geared crank mount tripod column is highly recommended. It will allow you to accommodate a wide range of viewing angles without constantly adjusting your seating height.
--- Michael Mc
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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/09/05
Loc: Northeastern Cal
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: GamesForOne]
#5225842 - 05/16/12 08:38 PM
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90 degree presents optical design issues over the 45 degree versions....presonally I would opt for 45 which I find work good even at zenith.
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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
   
Reged: 05/18/06
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Mr. Bill]
#5226276 - 05/17/12 06:02 AM
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90 degree presents optical design issues over the 45 degree versions.
Obviously so, since 45-degree binoculars are much more common, cheaper, and lighter than comparable 90-degree models. But why? I've never really wrapped my mind around this issue.
I agree that although 90-degree binos might be better in theory, 45-degree models turn out to be much more practical given the realities of the binocular market.
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Joe Ogiba
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/14/02
Loc: NJ USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Tony Flanders]
#5226383 - 05/17/12 08:32 AM
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I like 45° up to 45° and 90° above that.
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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/24/07
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Joe Ogiba]
#5226745 - 05/17/12 12:37 PM
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What about 60 deg, such as the WW II Zeiss 12 x 60, which was to be 12x70 for 1945-46 production, or its big brother/sister, the WW II 25 x 100 (f/4.5)?
60 deg is very comfortable for zero to 90 deg. target altitudes. The 25 x 100 has one roof prism and two other non-roof. They are optically contacted, rather than cemented. I believe that the roof prism is working entirely, or for most of the beam , in mode II, in which the beam is not split by the roof. I have never noticed any roof spikes in WW II CZ 25 x 100. Their prisms are not metallized. One of the prisms in the 12 x 60 is metallized.
See Hopkins' chapter on mirror and prism systems, in Mil Handbok 141, visible via a link in the reference list of this forum, for drawings of roof prisms in the split and the unsplit beam modes.
As followers of this forum know, several recent Chinese 90 deg. inclined designs with pentaprisms plus Porro II have had several problems . That is a long path in glass ( see Hopkins, op. cit.) , so the Pentaprism should be large aperture, with a fat body to house it, to keep vignetting of a big final pupil within the usually accepted design rule of thumb of 50% at the field edge. There have been non-circular exit pupils , symptomatic of design/integration problems.
The 90 deg. inclined view Fuji from the mid- 1980's had noticeable lower field illumination than the straight view version, which used the same body. I believe that the pentaprism used, ahead of the same Porro II cluster as in the straight version, was the largest which could be fitted without a new body casting. Coincidentally(?), a suitable pentaprism was at hand from a sighting instrument for a Japanese armored vehicle, I was told by a person in a position to know. The IPD bearings are very short, much shorter than the straight version, which seems to be a symptom of the the constraint faced by the designer without a new body casting. But with the exception of the weight, about 65 pounds for both straight(f/5) and 90 deg. ( f/5 or close to f/5) versions, the 90 deg is a desirable instrument. Some of the heavy brass, more of which was found in the early versions of the first type Fuji straight view 25 x 150mm, was "aluminized" for the mechanisms of the 90 deg, inclined version. Some "aluminization" of the mechanisms of the Fuji I occurred in the later 1970's, mostly for reduction of galvanic brass-aluminum-salt water spray corrosion , I believe as the result of my suggestions/complaints. This had the side effect of weight reduction.
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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5226802 - 05/17/12 01:07 PM
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Gordon has pointed out the issue of 90 degree orientations, namely the long optical path through glass. Light is reflected twice in the pentaprism, in the pattern of a 'figure 4.' This requires a large prism so that at its entrant face, which is significantly forward of the Porro II unit, the light cone can be fully accommodated. Moreover, no matter how one slices it, there is a more restricted limit to how fast an objective can be installed. The 45 degree inclined binos have a shorter path length through the prism and so can use faster objectives. Given the attraction of smaller/lighter binos, the designers were making some of the 90 degree models with too-fast objectives (and especially so when the smaller pentaprisms are installed.)
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Mr. Bill
Postmaster
   
Reged: 02/09/05
Loc: Northeastern Cal
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: GlennLeDrew]
#5226815 - 05/17/12 01:16 PM
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Good explanation, Gordon and Glenn.
IMO, the fewer prisms the better.
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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/28/03
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Tony Flanders]
#5227424 - 05/17/12 08:55 PM
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I have occasionally used telescopes with 45-degree diagonals. I find them quite annoying -- strongly prefer 90 degrees for astronomical use.
Virtually every refractor and SCT user knows this. Unfortunately, that is a lesson not learned by binocular manufacturers.
My own experience with 45 degree binos was very disappointing. My next binocs will be a straight through unit on a mirror-fed mount or on a p-gram system.
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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 03/24/07
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Jeff Morgan]
#5227624 - 05/17/12 11:32 PM
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Why not a 3D compound angle 2-mirror pseudo-Amici "prism"? See the drawing for the second mode Amici in Hopkins' chapter "Mirror and Prism Systems " in Mil Handbook 141, available linked from the reference library on this forum. There are several ways to IPD variation:
One IPD variation method for 3D compound angle 2-mirror erect image , is the design in April Sky and Telescope magazine, p 66 et. seq. Each telescope moves laterally, as a unit, for IPD adjustment. He chose 90 deg deviation of the line of sight, but anything from about 70 deg , up to perhaps 135 deg., or even up to 180 deg (where the compound angles vanish) is conceivable.
Or the Matsumoto EMS, in which the intermirror spacing is varied on each telescope. This requires as refocus after an IPD change. He chose 90 deg deviation of the LOS, but other angles could have been chosen. We have been told in the forum that the offered version of this setup is not suitable for low F/ratio steep light cones.
Or, IPD variation via lateral motion of one mirror pair "prism" equal to half of the motion of the eyepiece which it feeds . The mirrors of the other telescope, and their eyepiece, do not move. This unilateral 2:1 lateral motion arrangement, but with a 4-reflection real prism cluster with one roof , and no compound angles external to the prisms , was used in the WW II Carl Zeiss 25 x 100 and 12 x 60, both with 60 deg. deviation of the line of sight. That is the setup, but for two mirrors , which I chose for my hp48 program , which manipulates the compound angles to yield optimized spacings , layout angles, and mirror sizes required for several different mirror shapes , for chosen line of sight deviation angle, focal plane diameter, F/ratio, objective diameter, and mirror thickness and presence/absence of taper from the front to the back of the mirrors . I chose maximum available illumination of the field edge. That that is practical with mirrors, though not a major consideration , but not for prisms, in which size, weight, transmission, and cost of big blocks of glass become excessive.
As has been discussed in the forum, and in Mil Handbook 141 and elsewhere, 50% illumination of the field edge is acceptable as a rule of thumb for prism telescopes and binoculars.
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5228568 - 05/18/12 03:46 PM
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I imagine that Glenn could build something like this if he wanted to, but if one is looking to purchase there are only three choices: straight through, 45°, and 90°. Doesn't matter what's in the textbooks; these are the choices.
I find straight through completely impossible for astronomy uses. And the few 90° choices have been disappointing. That makes 45° the best bet, and it is no accident that it is the most common angled option.
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Zdee
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 09/20/10
Loc: North Carolina, USA
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5228645 - 05/18/12 05:00 PM
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Out of respect for the OP, let's please keep this discussion out of the realm of the abstract.
If you would like to discuss theoretical concepts of design, please create a new thread to do so.
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hallelujah
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mountains
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Re: Convenience, 45 ° or 90 °?
[Re: Joad]
#5228784 - 05/18/12 07:14 PM
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I find straight through completely impossible for astronomy uses.
I've never heard that statement before.  I guess that there is a first time for everything.
Stan
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