You are not logged in. [Login] Entrance · Main Index · Search · New user · Who's Online FAQ · Calendar

Telescope Specific Forums >> Meade ACF/RCX / LX / GPS Previous   Index   Next   Threaded

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all) rcdk super member Reged: 11/13/10 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: mclewis1]       #5227306 - 05/17/12 07:24 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I am sure it will migrate downward at some point, but if the development cost is exerting a lot of upward pressure on the price of the LX800 there is no way the LX80 could support it. Every time I attend a star party I get to listen to imagers spend a very large part of their time running down system integration issues. Most of them have at least as much invested as the cost of the LX800 plus scope. What is really bad is when they spend two or three nights getting their equipment to work, only to have it cloud over for the rest of the event. Meade may have had some bad product support episodes in the past, but at least with this they appear to be reacting well. And for all the caterwauling going on, the early indications are that the identified issues have relatively simple fixes. Quote: ... Personally I believe Meade's target for the simple bundled StarLock is wrong. IMHO it should be a really cheap capability for the LX80 ... not the LX800. Something to improve the tracking accuracy and ease of setup of a cheaper quality mount (potentially giving a lower priced mount better characteristics) and not something to improve what should already be a high end product. .... Post Extras:       JAT Observatory NOT a Wimp Reged: 02/20/05 Loc: In the Primordial Soup Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: rcdk]       #5227366 - 05/17/12 08:14 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: Meade may have had some bad product support episodes in the past, but at least with this they appear to be reacting well. And for all the caterwauling going on, the early indications are that the identified issues have relatively simple fixes. So the questions: 1. Has Meade decided to sell parts to their customer or will they still make them return the scopes? 2. Has their quality control gotten any better. 3. Are the quality of their components any better. 4. Does their circuit designs use good engineering and design techniques? Post Extras:       mclewis1 Thread Killer Reged: 02/25/06 Loc: New Brunswick, Canada Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: rcdk]       #5227431 - 05/17/12 09:01 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: I am sure it will migrate downward at some point, but if the development cost is exerting a lot of upward pressure on the price of the LX800 there is no way the LX80 could support it. I agree that it will migrate downwards but it's pretty clear that the cost of StarLock is not that substantial and with the volume potential of the LX80 further driving down costs it could be great addition to that program. I think an inexpensive bundled StarLock would be a bigger benefit to the 80 than it would be to the 800. Quote: Every time I attend a star party I get to listen to imagers spend a very large part of their time running down system integration issues. Most of them have at least as much invested as the cost of the LX800 plus scope. I hear the same comments and StarLock could indeed address some of those issues. In general I think StarLock is a great idea, I just think it should be optional and a better quality product for the LX800. Quote: Meade may have had some bad product support episodes in the past, but at least with this they appear to be reacting well. And for all the caterwauling going on, the early indications are that the identified issues have relatively simple fixes. This is true for the loose bolts and such but there's likely no relatively simple fix for a $7000 mount with 20 arc/s PE (and no StarLock is not a suitable fix). A strong and innovative Meade is indeed a value to us all. I do hope the LX80 and 800 are successful products. I think the integrated autoguider StarLock is a good idea as well. I just wish Meade's overall execution of these new products was a bit better (the launch, positioning, and the QC of the products themselves). Post Extras:       Lorence professor emeritus Reged: 09/15/08 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: geminijk]       #5227477 - 05/17/12 09:48 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: This is why we need Meade. This is why I want Meade to succeed. Thats not saying I'm giving them a pass on all of this, of course not, but if they are reading this thread, and oh boy they better be reading this thread, they need to get to work on fixing a reputation being even more tarnished by this LX800 stuff. So far, the LX80s seem to be fairing a bit better, but this high-end LX800, not so much, yet. As you can read from my signature, I love the choices I have out there, and want to keep those choices available. my 2 cents John You, me and a lot of other people that have purchased Meade products want to see Meade to succeed. That doesn't take a genius to understand. One reason I bought my Meade was because they did have a reputation for supporting their products. Their support has gone down the tube and their reputation is going down with it. How long will it take for the business to follow? Is Meade paying attention to the forums? I doubt it. If they were, you would hear about it. There are still a lot of Meade supporters out there. If there was any reason for them to be praising Meade they would tripping all over themselves getting the word out. The ironic part about all of this is that a properly run service department should make a profit for a company. In Meade's case their service department is going to increase profit for their competitors. Post Extras:       Boomstick member Reged: 12/26/09 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Lorence]       #5227550 - 05/17/12 10:32 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I'll add one a few more comments before I go back to lurk mode :-) I was only trying to point out that I believe a nearly turn-key setup like this will benefit the community greatly. It offers a way for people to get involved in fairly serious imaging without piecing together all the various components (hardware / software / optics / etc). By allowing more people in, we gain traction on light pollution and outreach. ** That's my agenda / goal / reason for posting ** If setups like this become common place, more people will image... period. I think / hope concepts like this will trickle down. For me, this has nothing to do with defending a company or product. On almost anything else, I'd have a similar negative reaction. I firmly believe a product like this (and ultimately other products they apply starlock to) will bring more people in to our community. It would seem to be in our interest to help this succeed, or at least remain neutral and let the early adopters (who's cash is on the line) make any negative statements. It's politics in a way I guess. I'm willing to turn a blind eye to the corporate decising making / etc involved... in the hope that this succeeds and makes the world at large more astro friendly :-) Glenn Post Extras:       rcdk super member Reged: 11/13/10 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: JAT Observatory]       #5227607 - 05/17/12 11:21 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   1. There is no way I would rely on the average person to switch out a circuit board. Or a mechanical part that required the removal of another part to get to. Telescopes ship much better in one piece. 2. Given the size of the market and the ambitious nature of the product, I don't expect the kind of testing that is required to eliminate manufacturing issues -- warranties are a lot cheaper way for companies to deal with manufacturing inconsistency. If you want high quality standards buy a Takahashi or Astrophysics scope. Meade is hardly the only telescope company to have had reported quality issues, and relying on the "squeaky wheel" for that kind of conclusion is hardly scientific. 3. Mine works. I don't know if I have witnessed anyone having trouble with any Meade or Celestron equipment. I have seen a lot of problems with goto dobs and imaging equipment. 4. I have not attempted to evaluate their electrical design. Quote: So the questions: 1. Has Meade decided to sell parts to their customer or will they still make them return the scopes? 2. Has their quality control gotten any better. 3. Are the quality of their components any better. 4. Does their circuit designs use good engineering and design techniques? Post Extras:       deepskyguy member Reged: 12/16/09 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Boomstick]       #5227609 - 05/17/12 11:23 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Glenn I respect your point that this may have a big impact on many people and may further the science of astronomy and astrophotography which is something we all want to happen. However, many of us are baffled that these scopes were sent out the door without a final test. Let's say you were managing the release of this product with all the hype and need for Meade to get it right. Wouldn't you have pulled a few off the line and do a final inspection? I own Meade products and want them to do well, but this makes me really question what is going on with this company. Many have put down serious cash for a product that to this point doesn't work as advertised. Post Extras:       rcdk super member Reged: 11/13/10 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Lorence]       #5227615 - 05/17/12 11:25 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I hope you are not referring to this episode? They have been all over the LX800 issues. Quote: ... Their support has gone down the tube and their reputation is going down with it. ... Post Extras:       peterm member Reged: 03/31/07 Loc: Queensland Australia Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Robo-bob]       #5227854 - 05/18/12 06:41 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Marcus I am not saying there aren't problems that arise as it appears is your situation. I am just saying that many people do not read the manual, they overtighten, never balance, don't set up properly, whatever, the list is endless and then it is Meade's (or any other company) fault. And presto with instant gratification internet they bag the *BLEEP* out of the product and company when it was there own fault. I can see why Meade don't respond, they are damned if you do and damned if they don't. Sure there are issues from time to time and that's what warranty and servicing are for. Geez can you guys really afford to lose another company. And Robo-bob if they did go who fills the void that they own...another Chinese manufacturer. There is not a plethora of innovative astro companies out there - and if you thinks so they are mostly owned or made by Synta. The other manufactures ie Plane Wave, Takahashi, Astro Physics etc are way out of the ball park on price for most compared to Meade. Geez guys support your own companies like Meade (yeah I know they are now made in Mexico) I have and will continue to do so and I live thousands of kilometers away. Post Extras:       JAT Observatory NOT a Wimp Reged: 02/20/05 Loc: In the Primordial Soup Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: peterm]       #5228083 - 05/18/12 10:36 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Meade's users are just as dumb/smart, negligent/diligent as users of anything else. Every manufacture has these problems. Warranty and service should not be the standard operating fix for poor design and quality control. What happens when the warranty expires? When that happens that leaves users of these scopes up the creek to foot the bill for repair as their problems may not appear until after the warrant has expired. It's not cheap to return some of these scopes to Meade. But that is what the users are forced to do since Meade won't sell parts. The sad thing is when some items are sent to Meade for repair at the owners expense they are returned to those owners still in non-working order. Been there done that. Sure there are other manufactures that cost more, and you are right, not everyone can afford them. But I look at it this way, which is better an affordable paperweight or a working mount that cost more? Post Extras:       rcdk super member Reged: 11/13/10 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: JAT Observatory]       #5229113 - 05/19/12 01:21 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   There are two separate issue at work here: First is the charge of poor design. I flat do not buy that -- it is a false charge as far as I can tell. I have seen people get a lot of years of service out of these scopes with no problems. I have seen them take a fair amount of abuse and still function. Some stay in a climate controlled house and get hauled out and used just long enough to cool down (or warm up), then hauled back in. Others spend every day in a hot observatory and every night in the cold. For years. Second is manufacturing consistency/quality. The way you increase that is buy testing more (or all) units. And the nature of the product means you have to do more than turn it on. It may align and track just fine as soon as you turn it on, but does it do it six hours later? When it is used in another time zone? Latitude? After a night of heavy dew? Ninety degree temps? Sub-zero weather? You're assembling components from other manufacturers that may have a bad batch of components themselves that are affected by any of these things. Chances are if a component is bad it will go out in the first year. So for a price-constrained company, it comes down to whether it is cheaper to test the snot out of every unit or just offer the warranty. If you want more warranty, you have the option of laying out the green to get it. I didn't, and I am glad I didn't have to spend more money on something I didn't feel was necessary. Selling individual parts is full of a lot of risk for a company with little benefit. First of all, how does the user know what the problem is? Maybe there is a burn mark on a circuit board, but how did it get there? Maybe they are just wrong about what part they need. When they get it, what happens if they plug it in wrong and smoke it too? What if there is nothing wrong with that part, but they fail to realize it? How many times are you going to send the same part to them? Do they know how to take the thing apart and put it together again? Do they know how to calibrate it? The bottom line is that if Meade is doing such a horrible job of building, selling and servicing telescopes they won't go out of business; they will be replaced by another company that can do it better. If you are qualified to critique their design then you are qualified to come up with your own, better design. If there support is lousy, then it should be possible for you to setup your own support network. And if they manufacturing quality is lousy, you can no doubt come up with higher manufacturing standards. At a similar price. And when you do I will absolutely buy a telescope from you. Quote: Meade's users are just as dumb/smart, negligent/diligent as users of anything else. Every manufacture has these problems. Warranty and service should not be the standard operating fix for poor design and quality control. What happens when the warranty expires? When that happens that leaves users of these scopes up the creek to foot the bill for repair as their problems may not appear until after the warrant has expired. It's not cheap to return some of these scopes to Meade. But that is what the users are forced to do since Meade won't sell parts. The sad thing is when some items are sent to Meade for repair at the owners expense they are returned to those owners still in non-working order. Been there done that. Sure there are other manufactures that cost more, and you are right, not everyone can afford them. But I look at it this way, which is better an affordable paperweight or a working mount that cost more? Post Extras:       Matthew Ota Hmmm Reged: 04/30/05 Loc: IngleHood, California Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: rcdk]       #5229197 - 05/19/12 03:16 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   My take on all of this is that more people have a tendency to post about their Meade telescope when there are problems, and not when things go right. My understanding of both Meade and Celestron is that they get most of their revenue from their low-end telescopes. Post Extras:       ldesign1 professor emeritus Reged: 09/17/09 Loc: Rockford, IL Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Matthew Ota]       #5229249 - 05/19/12 06:46 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: My take on all of this is that more people have a tendency to post about their Meade telescope when there are problems, and not when things go right. My understanding of both Meade and Celestron is that they get most of their revenue from their low-end telescopes. Well if no has done so already, then let me be the first to do so. I have owned a 10" LX200 Classic from 1995-2004 which was purchased used. I had to change the main board once, which was totally my fault. Before I knew anything about proper balancing, I was slewing my scope at the highest rate in DEC up and down, with a full set of weights attached to the bottom rail. Within a short time, I burned out the main board. At the time, I was able to remove the board my self and sent it directly to Mr. Piper at Meade for repair. There was no need to send the entire scope. In 2004 I upgraded to the 10" LX200GPS which I still currently own. It's stationed in my backyard observatory year round. The temperature has varied over the years from 104F to -20F. I've used it in those conditions without any problems. I did have this scope Super Charged right after I purchased it on Astromart, so that may have had some impact on performance. But it was given a high rating by Dr. Clay when he serviced it for me. I almost sold it recently when I grew tired of coma, and soft images. Then on a last ditch effort, I decided to spend two nights perfecting my polar alignment and collimating the scope properly with CCDInspector. WOW!!! What a difference that made. I no longer throw out any subs except for the occasional airplane trails. All and all, I am and have been very happy with my Meade LX200 Series Scopes. When I upgrade again, I would like to get the LX600 with the no focusing feature. I've avoided RCs because I don't like the star spikes in my images. So it's either a Refractor or SCT for me, and I own both. Post Extras:       Matthew Ota Hmmm Reged: 04/30/05 Loc: IngleHood, California Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: ldesign1]       #5229754 - 05/19/12 02:21 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   My Meade frankenscope has been moved clea across the USA twice. I ran it in New Hampshire in subfreezing temperatures. I have used it from sea level to 7,000 feet altitudes with no problems. I have run it in temperature over 100 degreees in the California desert. The only issues I have had is with the hand paddle, which I have had to replace twice. I keep the new one I have stored in its original bubble wrap and box to protect it. Post Extras:       Qwickdraw sage Reged: 03/03/12 Loc: Ann Arbor, Mi Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Boomstick]       #5230568 - 05/20/12 07:01 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Glenn While I understand your concern and it may be justified I don't believe we should participate in the "dumbing down" of discussions to accommodate or not scare off newcomers/beginners. I have been involved in astronomy for about 25 years and own an older Meade 826C but it is time to upgrade. I am looking into the 14" LX800 hopefully sometime late next year. It will be my retirement scope. Another one of my hobbies is audio/visual and consider myself somewhat of an audiophile. I participate in one of the more advanced forums on the internet but I was not always knowledgeable in the field. I would not have wanted the other participants in the audio/visual forum to not discuss the science at a high level on my account. My point is, I believe even beginners realize there are levels of knowledge to attain in any field and as a beginner they should understand that "experts" in the field are going generally be discussing the finer points of astronomy. Also, I am sure Meade reps read and participate in these forums and it is a good venue to voice our concerns over problems with the product. This is one reason there are threads on this forum dedicated to beginners. Post Extras:       Mike7Mak Pooh-Bah Reged: 12/07/11 Loc: New York Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: rcdk]       #5231280 - 05/20/12 05:24 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: Selling individual parts is full of a lot of risk for a company with little benefit. First of all, how does the user know what the problem is? Maybe there is a burn mark on a circuit board, but how did it get there? Maybe they are just wrong about what part they need. When they get it, what happens if they plug it in wrong and smoke it too? What if there is nothing wrong with that part, but they fail to realize it? How many times are you going to send the same part to them? Do they know how to take the thing apart and put it together again? Do they know how to calibrate it? Defending Meades refusal to sell parts simply doesn't fly with me. Yes, if the customer is claiming a warrantee issue and expecting 'free' parts that's a different story. Same goes for expecting to return electronic parts if they smoke or don't fix the problem. No one who sells parts allows that. I can order a part for my car without prooving I am competent to replace it, or that it actually needs replacing, they take my money and sell me the part I ask for. If I smoke it or it doesn't fix the problem that's on me. They get to sell me more parts. Refusing to sell parts makes no sense what-so-ever. IMO it's probably some beancounters idea to boost sales of overpriced 'assurance' policies with new scopes. Why not also sell overpriced parts with a no-return policy? For the record...I'm a die hard Meade owner. But I just went through this 'no parts' nonsense when a lightning surge killed the motherboard in my LX200gps. By a stroke of luck I found someone with a 'spare' they weren't using. To add insult to injury, 'that' motherboard was purchased from Meade. People do get parts from Meade but apparently you have to know the secret handshake to get it done. Post Extras:       JAT Observatory NOT a Wimp Reged: 02/20/05 Loc: In the Primordial Soup Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Mike7Mak]       #5231393 - 05/20/12 06:59 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   "People do get parts from Meade but apparently you have to know the secret handshake to get it done." In my case the secret handshake was a sympathetic service tech that I got to talk to by accident after multiple phone calls. After a fairly long conversation with him (basically me begging) he ended up getting me a replacement circuit board. It took a couple of weeks to arrive. The ironic part was he said there was no way for him to bill me, so when the part arrived it had a invoice with it that said NC for no charge. I wasn't so lucky when it come to my Pictor filter wheel they made be send it back for repair and even after a couple trips to them didn't still didn't work. After the ordeal I realized how lucky I was to have gotten the part for my LX200GPS and it was then I decided never to by another Meade mount/camera. It's funny I can call up Sirius Observatory, Diffraction Limited, SBIG or Software Bisque and they sell me parts, but Meade, nope. Heck Software Bisque even goes out of their way too provide documentation and How Too's in order to inform their customers on how to perform some service on their mounts. I don't understand how anyone can sit there and defend Meade, they screwed a bunch of their own employees and Coronado US workers by moving the operations to Mexico. Then they continue to screw over people who buy their products. I know this won't be popular with some but I have no problem stating I would not shed one tear if Meade went out of business. I'd say buh-bye and good riddance. Edited by JAT Observatory (05/20/12 07:09 PM) Post Extras:       rcdk super member Reged: 11/13/10 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: Mike7Mak]       #5231762 - 05/21/12 12:23 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I wish they sold parts but I understand why they don't. I am sure the beancounters' pickpocket mentality has a lot to do with it, but also I am sure you can attach a $ cost to supporting it Meade didn't want to spend or couldn't recoup in the price of the part. In point of fact, the car companies rarely sell parts. You get most of them from third parties and in some instances, the dealer (who is also fairly independent). Overall, the car companies have pretty well insulated themselves from that end of the business. The NTSB usually has to get involved to hold the car company accountable for a problem. I am coming from the same place as the original poster: I think we are very lucky to have fairly good companies making really good equipment at what I think is a fantastic price. And pushing better equipment to market all the time. So maybe I am more tolerant than I should be because I know things could be far, far worse. Post Extras:       LoveChina61 sage Reged: 06/20/09 Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: rcdk]       #5231801 - 05/21/12 12:59 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Buy a secondhand Classic for a reasonable price and stick with that scope . There are plenty of secondhand parts around and even a few guys who repair them at reasonable cost. Plus there is a ton of information available online if you want to try to do the repair yourself. Worse case scenario is that you have to junk a scope that you didn't pay a whole lot for in the first place anyway. Post Extras:       peterm member Reged: 03/31/07 Loc: Queensland Australia Re: Why we ALL need the Meade LX800 [Re: LoveChina61]       #5233758 - 05/22/12 09:33 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Well my experience is very good with Meade. I have been been fortunate to own Meade scopes since 1985 (starting with the 2080). In the last 5 years my 12inch LX200R has slewed to some 50,000 galaxies and has not missed a beat. It is housed in an Observatory that goes through summer extremes of heat and humidity. I don't own Meade shares, never have but I am a walking talking supporter of what Meade have done for amateur astronomy and for my own personal voyage of discovery. I don't understand how a minority can bash Meade so hard when clearly they have advanced amateur astronomy in every conceivable way for decades by bringing optics and technology together at a realistic price that most all competition is forced to lift their game. We really do need Meade. In the (unlikely) scenario that we were to lose Meade then I would see this as a tragic loss for up and coming amateurs especially with new products as per the title of this thread. Edited by peterm (05/22/12 09:34 AM) Post Extras:       Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)

Previous   Index   Next   Threaded

Extra information 6 registered and 2 anonymous users are browsing this forum. Moderator:  Starman27, Chris Erickson  Print Thread Forum Permissions       You cannot start new topics       You cannot reply to topics       HTML is disabled       UBBCode is enabled Thread views: 3471 Jump to *Announcements and News* -----   Cloudy Nights Announcements   Discussion of CN Articles, Reviews, and Reports   Celestial Events*General Astronomy* -----   Beginners Forum   General Observing and Astronomy   Outreach   Light Pollution*Equipment Discussions* -----   ATM, Optics and DIY Forum   Binoculars   Binoviewers   Cats & Casses   Classic Telescopes   Equipment   Eyepieces   Mounts   Observatories   Reflectors   Refractors    Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy*Astrophotography and Sketching* -----   Beginning and Intermediate Imaging   Film Astrophotography   DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing   CCD Imaging & Processing   Solar System Imaging & Processing   Sketching   Astro Imaging/Sketching Contest *Observing* -----   NEO   Planetary and Solar System Observing   Lunar Observing   Deep Sky Observing   Double Star Observing   Solar   Variable Star Observing and Radio Astronomy*Telescope Specific Forums* -----   Celestron NexStar    NexStar GPS / CPC Telescopes   Questar Forum   Meade ACF/RCX / LX / GPS    Meade ETX*Speciality Forums* -----   Arizona Science and Astronomy Expo   NEAF (Northeast Astronomy Forum) and NEAIC (Northeast Astro Imaging Conference)   AstroArt   Astronomy Clubs and Star Parties   Astronomy Software & Computers   AstroWebsites   Science! Astronomy & Space Exploration, and Others   Space Rocks   Stellar Media*Swap and Shop* -----   Shop and Swap Audio Components*CN Feedback and Vendor Announcements* -----   Vendor and Group Announcements*International Year of Astronomy 2009 - Forums are now closed.* -----   IYA Archive Info

CN Forums Home