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Rick Woods
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5383293 - 08/23/12 06:11 PM

Quote:

No, a printed atlas in the field is a great thing. But it has to allow you to identify everything you can see. If it doesn't, well then, it's not a very good atlas, is it?




It depends on what you want it to show you. In your case, I guess maybe it's not.


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turtle86
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Rudra]
      #5383302 - 08/23/12 06:15 PM

Quote:

I just checked and it looks like hardbound version complete with the "slide in" case. I had a look at the pages and to me it just looks like Uranometria 2K, an atlas that I already have. But where are those friends, who were looking for the MSA for so many years? There is still no bid on the auction.




One reason it hasn't gotten any bids yet might be that it has a noticeable ding on one of the corners. That's no big deal, especially if it's going to be used in the field, and in any case $275 sure sounds like a great price for it. I'd buy it myself if I didn't already own a copy.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Rudra]
      #5383310 - 08/23/12 06:22 PM

Quote:

So Rick you have a plan up your sleeve to make me poorer by $275 + shipping I am trying my best not to get tempted into buying it and now your post actually forces me to reconsider my stand.




Use the Force, Luke!

No, seriously: It's a lot of money. Consider everything Don said; and think if this is something you really want. I'd hate to talk you into buying something that would end up being of no use to you. It's big and heavy, and probably won't see a lot of field use. At the desk, it's magnificent.
Also when you find something and want to pinpoint its position in the star field, it's great for ID purposes. There are a lot of objects not in the U2K; determining the exact position would help in identifying them.

And there's always the Great Atlas, with 70,000 DSOs and 2.4 million stars. You can still pick up one of those for $99.


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Starman1
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5383376 - 08/23/12 07:09 PM

And if you'd like free astronomy software with hundreds of thousands of deep-sky objects and up to 900 million stars, try Cartes du Ciel.
You can tailor the scale, the depth (of stars and DSOs), the colors, etc for your own purposes with your own scope.
You can also integrate it easily with picture catalogs like RealSky, etc.
I noticed recently that the DSO catalogs are more extensive than my old stand-by, Megastar.
This is what you get from professional astronomers with time on their hands.
CdC has the SAC database as one of their included lists of objects. Now THERE'S a list of 10,000 objects useful for the observer.
Did I mention it's free?


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edwincjones
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5383409 - 08/23/12 07:30 PM

$275 + it does have an unmet reserve

edj


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okieav8rAdministrator
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5383469 - 08/23/12 08:20 PM

Quote:

Knowing it as I do, and assuming it's in reasonably good shape, I personally would jump all over it at $275. That's only $25 more than the original price!




At $275, that auction still shows 'reserve not met'. I'd wager he's looking for considerably more than $275 whether it sells at auction or he sells it outright.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5383514 - 08/23/12 08:54 PM

Quote:

And if you'd like free astronomy software with hundreds of thousands of deep-sky objects and up to 900 million stars, try Cartes du Ciel.
You can tailor the scale, the depth (of stars and DSOs), the colors, etc for your own purposes with your own scope.




Nah, not for me. I have CduC on my laptop, but never use it. The only software I use is Mars Previewer II. That's a funny attitude for a guy who worked in computer system software for 30 years, I know; but, I yam what I yam.


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Rudra
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5383583 - 08/23/12 09:43 PM

Quote:

Nah, not for me. I have CduC on my laptop, but never use it. The only software I use is Mars Previewer II.


I was just a little while ago, browsing through the computer atlas CduC after a long time and believe me, I do not think I will ever turn my back on the paper atlases. Now, CduC and Stellarium are completely fine computer atlases and planetarium softwares yet paper atlases have a "feel" that computer atlases lack, like touching the page, flipping maps back and forth.

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Tony Flanders
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5384028 - 08/24/12 06:32 AM

Let me put this in historical perspective. Uranometria and the Millennium Star Atlas are very different indeed, for good reasons.

The Millennium Star Atlas is primarily an atlas of stars. It was originally conceived as the visual presentation of the data release from the Tycho satellite. As such it includes information such as distances, proper motion, and the position angles of double stars that are not normally shown in paper atlases.

Moreover, the treatment of the stars is very lavish compared to Uranometria. Not only does it show far more stars, it also shows them on a much larger scale.

Sky & Telescope enhanced the Millennium Atlas with deep-sky objects in order to make it more attractive to amateur astronomers. As far as the Tycho project was concerned, it would have been fine for it to have no DSOs at all.

Unfortunately, the DSO databases were in rather poor shape when Millennium was being prepared. After being plotted by computer, all the pages of Millennium were compared by hand to Digitized Sky Survey photos -- a vast job that nearly brought Sky to its knees. Huge numbers of errors were found and corrected, but Millennium still has plenty more errors of omission and comission.

The first edition of Uranometria suffered from the same problems with respect to DSOs, but DSO databases had improved greatly by the time the second edition was prepared, thanks to the work of the NGC/IC project and others. So not only does Uranometria II have more DSOs, its DSOs are much more reliable -- despite which it still has ample errors of omission and comission.

At the telescope, I find Uranometria inadequate to locate difficult objects because it shows so few stars. Put another way, it is inadequate to find the objects that it shows. Of course this is a non-issue if you have high-quality Go To that can place you within a few arcminutes of your target.

Millennium has just enough stars to be useful at the eyepiece of a telescope -- though 2 or 4 times the number would be a lot better! I rarely miss the faint galaxies that aren't plotted -- the galaxy databases are pretty good except with respect to position angle. But I fairly often miss the open clusters that aren't plotted -- and even more the ones that are plotted in the wrong position.


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turtle86
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5384220 - 08/24/12 10:04 AM

Thanks for the explanation and background info. The difference in emphasis is well reflected in the titles of the works themselves: Millennium is a "Star Atlas" and Uranometria is a "Deep Sky Atlas."

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Edward E
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5384371 - 08/24/12 11:20 AM

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion and I really enjoyed the background history of the Mill & Uran Star Atlases.

I do deep sky work and I enjoy using the printed Uran Star Atlas (second edition) and CduC loaded with the UCAC3 & NOMAD star catalogs. Together these make a perfect pair and at a price that most of us can afford.


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Pollux556
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Edward E]
      #5384406 - 08/24/12 11:40 AM

Quote:

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion and I really enjoyed the background history of the Mill & Uran Star Atlases.






A thing I like from Uranometria is the interesting sky cartography story in the beginning of Vol. 1


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turtle86
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Pollux556]
      #5384593 - 08/24/12 01:26 PM

Quote:

A thing I like from Uranometria is the interesting sky cartography story in the beginning of Vol. 1




Same here. I wish that had been included in volume 1 of the second edition as well. Fortunately, used copies of the first edition are readily available.


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The Ardent
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: turtle86]
      #5384745 - 08/24/12 03:07 PM

I wish we had an atlas same scale as the Uranometria A1 charts, with the double star ticks of Millenium.

Chart A14 centered on M11 is sweet.


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davidpitre
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5384833 - 08/24/12 04:04 PM

Quote:



At the telescope, I find Uranometria inadequate to locate difficult objects because it shows so few stars. Put another way, it is inadequate to find the objects that it shows. Of course this is a non-issue if you have high-quality Go To that can place you within a few arcminutes of your target.





I have found the same. Often, for faint objects, Uranometria is useful for getting me to the field (roughly), but I then must use printouts from software to find what I'm looking for. It is true that the stars charted in the atlas are inadequate for finding a great many (perhaps a majority) of the DSOs plotted.


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Starman1
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: The Ardent]
      #5385025 - 08/24/12 06:18 PM

Quote:

I wish we had an atlas same scale as the Uranometria A1 charts, with the double star ticks of Millenium.

Chart A14 centered on M11 is sweet.



Indeed.
Currently, only computer star charts come up to that level.
The SkyGX atlas would have been "THE ONE", but Christopher Watson was never able to find a printer.

Here is what it would have been:
Based on the Hipparcos (http://astro.estec.esa.nl/Hipparcos/) and Tycho (http://www.astro.ku.dk/%7Eerik/Tycho-2/) observations, SkyGX is a set of 3,570 charts encompassing the entire sky to about magnitude 12.0. With completeness to approximately 99% at magnitude 11.0 and 90% at magnitude 11.5—more than 2 million stars—it sets a new standard for printed star atlases. Smaller fields and greater chart scale, coupled with the use of the latest combined and revised stellar and deep-sky catalogues, has made it possible to show the whole sky with far greater veracity and uniformity than any previous printed all-sky atlas. Nearly 60,000 galaxies with visually verified aspect ratio and orientation are displayed, along with 25,000 other non-stellar objects taken from the most up-to-date and accurate datasets available.

If you'd like to go to the trouble of printing it, there're 3 deep ones at:
http://www.uv.es/jrtorres/triatlas.html
If you had a local printer print it and bind it, it would be expensive, but it would be the most extensive atlas ever printed.


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turtle86
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5385446 - 08/24/12 10:55 PM

I would've bought the SkyGx in a heartbeat had it ever gotten printed. Here's a link to one of the sample pages:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061102105246/http://www.skygx.com/docs/proto/GX05-2470.pdf

At least the Great Atlas of the Sky got published (but now being discontinued) and has comparable specs: 2,430,768 stars up to mag 12 in addition to over 70,000 galaxies, clusters and nebulae.


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BobinKy
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5385535 - 08/24/12 11:50 PM

Tony...

Thank you for your comments in this discussion.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5385736 - 08/25/12 03:08 AM

Quote:

After being plotted by computer, all the pages of Millennium were compared by hand to Digitized Sky Survey photos -- a vast job that nearly brought Sky to its knees.




You guys on your knees are better than any of your competition in full stride.


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Rick Woods
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Re: Millennium Star Atlas-now on AM new [Re: Starman1]
      #5385739 - 08/25/12 03:10 AM

Quote:

The SkyGX atlas would have been "THE ONE", but Christopher Watson was never able to find a printer.




Do you know, is that a dead issue now, or is there still a ghost of a chance a publisher will appear? Is Christopher still looking? I'd buy it too, no question.


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